The Myth

Class B Boys
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Re: The Myth

Postby winner-within » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:43 pm

The Schwab wrote:The difference between perceived good coaches and great coaches is talent.



It takes a certain talent to tell the difference too.. :wink:
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
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Re: The Myth

Postby HONKER » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:58 pm

The Schwab wrote:In response to your post, not once have I ever said that grinsteinner, dwyer, card etc... aren't good coaches and if anyone says they aren't that person doesn't understand basketball. They are great coaches who have built awesome programs. Just because a school has 30 kids in a class doesn't mean they are the same as another school who has 30 kids in a class. There are numerous advantages to not having defined school district lines, it changes every aspect of your school, right down to the kids who attend. My support of the 3 class system is based on equality, giving schools of like size and makeup a chance to compete against each other in the postseason.

It would also be nice for some schools to have 30 kids per class a lot have half that and are still trying to keep the program from dying.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Mandan » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Here is Dickinson Trinity's last 6 seasons in Class A:
........WDA....WDA Tourney
Year Record Record
------ --------- ----------------
85-86..4-10....1-2
86-87..3-11....0-2
87-88..1-13....0-2
88-89..2-12....1-2
89-90..4-10....0-2
90-91..4-14....0-2

I very vividly remember sitting in the stands watching the boys get beat by Minot something like 100-60. 20 to 30 point losses against Minot and the Bismarck schools was pretty common. We were still a little over 200 students at that time. If you force Shiloh and the smaller private schools into class A, you would get this result or even worse for each of those schools, except when they played each other. I just don't see that as being right to force them to play that far above what their enrollment is.

In the spring of 1990 a three-class vote failed by five votes. That is when Trinity and most of the remaining North Star Conference schools declared that they were moving to class B by the fall of 1991. If that vote had passed, these schools would have all been in the middle class and we never would be talking about this now.
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Re: The Myth

Postby The Schwab » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:58 pm

Mandan wrote:Here is Dickinson Trinity's last 6 seasons in Class A:
........WDA....WDA Tourney
Year Record Record
------ --------- ----------------
85-86..4-10....1-2
86-87..3-11....0-2
87-88..1-13....0-2
88-89..2-12....1-2
89-90..4-10....0-2
90-91..4-14....0-2

I very vividly remember sitting in the stands watching the boys get beat by Minot something like 100-60. 20 to 30 point losses against Minot and the Bismarck schools was pretty common. We were still a little over 200 students at that time. If you force Shiloh and the smaller private schools into class A, you would get this result or even worse for each of those schools, except when they played each other. I just don't see that as being right to force them to play that far above what their enrollment is.

In the spring of 1990 a three-class vote failed by five votes. That is when Trinity and most of the remaining North Star Conference schools declared that they were moving to class B by the fall of 1991. If that vote had passed, these schools would have all been in the middle class and we never would be talking about this now.


But it's better for Trinity to beat teams in region 7 by 25+ points? I bet if they had their current coach back then they would have been very competitive.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:03 pm

why was Trinity playing class A?

anyone know the years Grafton was class A?
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Re: The Myth

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:54 pm

Flip wrote:why was Trinity playing class A?

anyone know the years Grafton was class A?


They were in the North Star Conference (Class A) from 1978 - 1982 when I played.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Sniper » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:51 am

Scheeby wrote: If you don't want to see them, then beat them. Copy what they do and you might have a chance. Hire their coaches - they'd probably double their salary going to a public school. Right now we're in the midst of some great coaches that just happen to coach at private schools. Let's appreciate and enjoy it. Dwyer leaves for one season and a talented Shiloh squad doesn't make the R5 final. Give these schools and coaches some credit.


So how are these small town schools going copy a private school, like Shiloh, who has talented athletes transfer into their school each year whether it is at the junior high or varsity levels? Answer: they can't. In reality these small towns are going to have the same group of kids from elementary sports all the way up into the varsity levels. Now take Shiloh for example, for the most part when their elementary teams grows up they are going to consist of a handful of new players by the time they get to the varsity level. Sure a small town might get a new kid transfer in every now and then but it is not even close to what a private school has. I think the list of athletes who have transferred into Shiloh in the past 6-7 years would shock some people. Also not trying to pick on Shiloh but they have had the most transfers that I know of recently so they were a good example.
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Re: The Myth

Postby mnnd » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:49 am

I thought I'd copy and paste a reply to the another thread on Region 1...reply was to Jake Hanson going to Lake Region and then filled in some info on the current Oak Grove bball team. Please keep in mind at OG, it wasn't all that long ago 2005ish, that it did not have an elementary and all students came in at middle or high school years.

It is a great discussion and feel for some of the smaller towns who see the "B" as it should be seen. I so enjoyed our trips to these towns.

Great to see that Hanson will be playing at Lake Region....what an athlete and a fantastic young man.

As far as the OG discussion....This year's team:
- Foster arrived at OG somewhere around the 6th/7th grade if I remember as his dad transferred in with a large local company. He became one of the 2 bigger boys on their respective team (both travel and school ball). 3 year varsity player
- Schlenker was the other larger boy that played with the team and believe he was home schooled and then arrived somewhere in the middle school timing to play with the team. 4 year varsity player
- Slagle started at OG in 2nd grade after his family moved up to the FM area due to job transfer. Played with same group of boys from YMCA ball, travel ball, AAU and then 4 year varsity player who was lost in first game with ACL injury vs Hawley.
- Berg played on same YMCA, travel ball and AAU with Slagle and family were long time OG alumni and Fargo residents, 3 year varsity player
- Adams started playing with Slagle and Berg in the elementary school years and his mother and Grandfather were OG alumni and his older brother Christian was the all time leading scorer for OG bball. (Run..correct?) 3 year varsity player
- Bakkegard came over from Grace Lutheran sometime in middle school and then joined the boys on their travel squad and played 3 years of varsity
- Pulst also came over from Grace Lutheran and was a 3 year varsity player
- Christianson came from the public school system in Fargo sometime in middle school and his older brother Tyler played for OG some 4 or 5 years ago. will be a 4 year varsity player
- Anderson has been playing ball for OG for many years and moved up to starting PG due to Slagle's injury and also is an all-state soccer player. 3 year varsity player

Foster, Slagle and Berg played AAU together with the Phenoms and ECI for 2 summers and believe that Christianson played some ECI last summer...

In summary, don't believe there has been any "recruiting" of this year's team and many of them have been playing together for 8+ years together. If Christianson and Anderson (both Jrs) had not started and Slagle had not injured his ACL in first game...then likely 3 of the starting 5 would have played together for 10 years straight and the other 2 would have been with those 3 for at least 5 years....just some add'l detail on the discussion of private and public
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Re: The Myth

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:38 am

Most public schools do not have one kid that moves in after they start school, let alone 6.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Sportsrube » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:49 am

The Schwab wrote:Most public schools do not have one kid that moves in after they start school, let alone 6.


Excellent point and that is one of the biggest issues with privates. I would also question how many parents see these kids at tournaments, traveling teams, etc... when they are in Elementary and start talking about "if our kids were together in JH and HS that would really be something" but you are in "North's" district and we are in "South's" district so we need to go to a school that has no district boundaries.
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Re: The Myth

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:44 am

IMHO, the real advantage of schools located in the big towns (and towns located near) is at the elementary level. A number of schools have campuses located in various locations throughout these large towns. This gives them the ability to have a much larger reach for students. I also believe private/parochial schools recruit at this age. Why? Because that's what you do to sustain your school enrollment. You are going to recruit the best students you can find whether it be for academics, sports or any other program offered.

It is not difficult to see talent at this early age and build strong athletic programs year in and year out with the ability to reach out and acquire students from throughout these larger towns. With the tournaments, traveling teams, YMCA, etc. today's kids are afforded, along with genetics, talent is very easy to spot.

With that said, I don't think these smaller private/parochial schools should automatically be thrown into the top class if changes are made. You are simply moving a problem from the bottom to the top. I do think a multiplier should be used. The advantages noted above are real and do make a big difference.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:51 am

Sportsrube wrote:
Excellent point and that is one of the biggest issues with privates. I would also question how many parents see these kids at tournaments, traveling teams, etc... when they are in Elementary and start talking about "if our kids were together in JH and HS that would really be something" but you are in "North's" district and we are in "South's" district so we need to go to a school that has no district boundaries.

If they're already making plans in elementary what's stopping them from all going to the same public school? Doesn't open enrollment work the same in Fargo as it does the rest of the state?
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Re: The Myth

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:56 am

classB4ever wrote:IMHO, the real advantage of schools located in the big towns (and towns located near) is at the elementary level. A number of schools have campuses located in various locations throughout these large towns. This gives them the ability to have a much larger reach for students. I also believe private/parochial schools recruit at this age. Why? Because that's what you do to sustain your school enrollment. You are going to recruit the best students you can find whether it be for academics, sports or any other program offered.

It is not difficult to see talent at this early age and build strong athletic programs year in and year out with the ability to reach out and acquire students from throughout these larger towns. With the tournaments, traveling teams, YMCA, etc. today's kids are afforded, along with genetics, talent is very easy to spot.

With that said, I don't think these smaller private/parochial schools should automatically be thrown into the top class if changes are made. You are simply moving a problem from the bottom to the top. I do think a multiplier should be used. The advantages noted above are real and do make a big difference.



and don't kid yourselves, whether its a public school getting a transfer or a Private "sports" is the main one.......
used to be we thought just the Priests wanted to win the most, but the Pastors like victories too... :wink:
O shoot did I just bring Religion into the mix :)
and in the Public's it can be a gamut of variables (usually referred to as "politics") :P
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Re: The Myth

Postby Mandan » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:30 pm

Flip wrote:why was Trinity playing class A?



Trinity was class A pretty much from the time they opened (or at least when they had their first graduating class in 1965) until 1991. The first graduating class was around 200, if I remember correctly. This was a very (majority) Catholic town at the time, and tuition was practically free, so that made a huge difference too.

In the late 70's they were around 400 or so students, so current St Mary's size. And in the 70's, they got to state basketball tournaments and in 1979 beat Fargo South in the Class A football championship game. 400 students is a level you can compete at in Class A. 200 and below is a way different story.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Mandan » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:53 pm

The Schwab wrote:
Mandan wrote:Here is Dickinson Trinity's last 6 seasons in Class A:
........WDA....WDA Tourney
Year Record Record
------ --------- ----------------
85-86..4-10....1-2
86-87..3-11....0-2
87-88..1-13....0-2
88-89..2-12....1-2
89-90..4-10....0-2
90-91..4-14....0-2

I very vividly remember sitting in the stands watching the boys get beat by Minot something like 100-60. 20 to 30 point losses against Minot and the Bismarck schools was pretty common. We were still a little over 200 students at that time. If you force Shiloh and the smaller private schools into class A, you would get this result or even worse for each of those schools, except when they played each other. I just don't see that as being right to force them to play that far above what their enrollment is.

In the spring of 1990 a three-class vote failed by five votes. That is when Trinity and most of the remaining North Star Conference schools declared that they were moving to class B by the fall of 1991. If that vote had passed, these schools would have all been in the middle class and we never would be talking about this now.


But it's better for Trinity to beat teams in region 7 by 25+ points? I bet if they had their current coach back then they would have been very competitive.


No, it's not better. That's why I always have supported a three class system.

I will admit that Coaching turnover was a problem on the boys side.
They did have the same coach in 91-92 that they had in 90-91 (Brad Foss)
They went from 5-14 overall to 14-5 in 91-92 when dropping to class B, and lost in the first game of the Regional tournament. This was basically the same guys minus 3 seniors that had graduated in 1991.

From 86-89, the head boy's coach was Steve Glasser. He wound up coaching both boys and girls, then gave up the boys team to concentrate on girls.

So let's look at the Girl's record under Steve Glasser - this might actually hurt my initial argument but in the interest of honesty I'll present it:

........Overall.WDA Tourney
Year Record Record
------ --------- ----------------
1988..5-13....1-2
1989..7-11....1-2
1990..12-9....0-2
Class B
........Overall..Regional....State
1991..15-4......3-0...........2-1(5th)

Now he only took them to state twice before quitting in 2003, so he is not at Grinsteiner's level.
The seniors in 1991 were very talented, and the record in 1990 was helped a lot by that class.
I would argue that High School Girls basketball was quite a bit different back then talent and skill wise, so it was easier to compete than it was for the boys.
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