The Myth

Class B Boys
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Re: The Myth

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:32 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:In the last 13 years, 13 different teams have won the B boys title. Eleven of them are public schools, and they represent every shape and size and every region in the state except for Region 5.

When talking about class b as a whole this is just a tiny piece of it.

Here is another tiny piece.
In the past 17 years Dickinson Trinity has gone to state 11 times.
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Re: The Myth

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:50 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:In the last 13 years, 13 different teams have won the B boys title. Eleven of them are public schools, and they represent every shape and size and every region in the state except for Region 5.


Please reference the part where I stated that THE TOURNAMENT IS MORE THAN ITS TITLE GAME.

So, hypothetical:

Lets say Ellendale beats Divide County in the title game by 3 on a buzzer beater.

The rest of the tournament field was:

Fargo Oak Grove
Grafton
Langdon
Shiloh
Ryan
Trinity

Grafton beats Shiloh for third.

Ryan beats Trinity for fifth.

Oak Grove beats Langdon for seventh.

That's a good tournament? Just because someone new won the title. The classification works because someone else won the tournament?

Please.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:53 am

I agree, but the title game is your natural starting point. When Milnor wins a title, it's hard for anyone Milnor-sized or larger to argue that the deck is impossibly stacked against them.
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Re: The Myth

Postby The Schwab » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:53 am

In those past 13 years we've also had 24 appearances by schools without defined district lines. There are 4 regions that have schools without defined district lines that have been at the state tournament (5 regions total if we include Trinity Christian, since they have to co-op with another school I don't see them as a true power, but I will include them in my math for the sake of argument).

In those past 13 years from those 4 regions with schools without district lines who have their own teams-
46% of the participants from said regions have been schools without district lines

If we include WTC in our math- 36.9% of participants from those 5 regions have been schools without defined district lines.

Appearances by large schools (that play AA football (or have played AA football in the past), schools with large enrollment) or schools without defined district lines- 58 out of a possible 104 spots (I didn't include Linton-HMB or Cavalier in those 58 because they aren't technically large schools and because Cavalier has played 9 man more recently even though the were AA in the early 2000's). That's 56 percent of schools that are large or don't have defined district lines. That means we are lucky if we get 4 true class B schools each year in the tournament.

I don't know about anyone else but IMO those numbers are proof that the system is broken.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:12 pm

The Schwab wrote:...
I don't know about anyone else but IMO those numbers are proof that the system is broken.

WHOA! WHOA! WHOA!
This goes against everything heimer believes in, he can't have anyone else is on his side. Only he has the intelligence to see these things. The rest of us are mindless sheep that believe everything the co-conspirator media want us to believe.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:20 pm

I think I'm outnumbered here this time and Heimer has allies. That's fine. I'm just not big on his mythology. My stance is 'flawed' but not 'broken.' I don't think that broken systems produce results like we saw on Saturday night. And you can disagree. The Schwab used 'broken' as his descriptor, but he has been nothing but civil in his approach to the whole topic.
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Re: The Myth

Postby The Schwab » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:29 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:I think I'm outnumbered here this time and Heimer has allies. That's fine. I'm just not big on his mythology. My stance is 'flawed' but not 'broken.' I don't think that broken systems produce results like we saw on Saturday night. And you can disagree. The Schwab used 'broken' as his descriptor, but he has been nothing but civil in his approach to the whole topic.


It was a great game I am not going to disagree with you on that one at all. It was a game played between very large class B schools is the point I'm getting at, I might have picked the wrong word with "broken", "flawed" would be a better word.
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Re: The Myth

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:05 pm

Flip wrote:
The Schwab wrote:...
I don't know about anyone else but IMO those numbers are proof that the system is broken.

WHOA! WHOA! WHOA!
This goes against everything heimer believes in, he can't have anyone else is on his side. Only he has the intelligence to see these things. The rest of us are mindless sheep that believe everything the co-conspirator media want us to believe.


Glad you're coming around.

Both of you.
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Re: The Myth

Postby justplayalready » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:40 pm

I'll also agree with Heimer a bit on this one...Just because Saturday night was good for the B, doesn't mean that there isn't an issue here...flawed or broken call it what you will....

I knew Saturday would have good attendance, looking at Friday night , both HCV and FW had their respective areas behind the baskets full. FW has always had a huge "walk up" crowd, so to see a number of 9K wasn't surprising Saturday...Thursday and Friday did show the other side, with plenty of good reserved seats not being taken(some the entire weekend)...I left right after the start of the Minot/Fargo game Thursday, and catching it on TV, it appeared empty the second half of that game. I am starting to question if as many people are getting reserved tickets to watch no matter who plays, or if they are waiting to see who is playing and determining their attendance on that???

To me it's just a rut...The venue is the same...everything is the same as it was in previous years...the teams are basically the same as previous years, the music is the same, announcing is the same, the dippin dots are still overpriced...and for some reason they remove the best part of the pre-game before the final???
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Re: The Myth

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:01 pm

Minot is a poor place for any tournament. No creativity, food choices limited.

That being said, don't challenge the attendance of the B. You're confronting the myth.
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Re: The Myth

Postby B-oldtimer » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:09 pm

I have written here for years the class b is flawed system and repercussions of it won't be seen for years to come but were are already seeing the beginning of this flawed system. Attendance is down on class b basketball and is declining each year overall. The Munich team that played there 25 years ago played in front of crowd of 11,200 people and now today were guessing around 9000 people when state has grown population wise but crowds are less. The number of schools are less than they were then to compared now and basketball is not the only sport played by number of larger class b schools. The state has now independent league of hockey involving the towns Watford city, Crosby/Divide schools, Langdon, Mayville, and I believe Northwood. Plus number of schools are now cooping with some the class a schools in hockey. This has drawn people's interest away from basketball. The big thing I see is that small town school who used to put a team on floor no longer does this. I believe this is because of the system where if you were small school with limited numbers you were matched up against these larger class b schools and you constantly were loosing and no site in near future of beating these schools kids just didn't want to play anymore. Two we have gotten to point where it is expected these kids also had to play year around by going to camps and playing traveling teams where it wasn't something fun to do in the winter it became a job. When I was in small class b school it was played mainly in season the sport was sanctioned and maybe we played some in early fall to get into shape for the season. Other seasons were for that sport of the season. Today I see these kids play year around and work on their skills to develop into best possible player but at what cost. The teams back then were pretty rough at the beginning of the season but it was fun to see how teams developed over the season and end of the season their could be quite a few upsets. I can remember teams that came into District tournament rated in the top 10 in the state and getting beat by these small schools that had improved through the season. Back then if you lost in the district tournament season was over no double elimination the season was over. But getting back to class b the way it is structured now its loosing its grass roots appeal to rural and small town North Dakota. I know this happening, basketball has lost its following out in the country before if one schools from the district made it to state whole district was interested in that team and a lot of people would just go to state to see them play especially if they made it into the finals. Example was Munich of the past I can remember all neighboring schools wanted see them play in the state. Today people just don't have that interest and your lucky to get them to watch the game on TV. Getting back to this years state champion is prime example of what's happened to basketball Hillsboro/Central Valley is coop of two schools with Central Valley school of 69 kids in high school but they couldn't get enough kids out for basketball. They are cooped with Hillsboro one of larger class b schools in the region. Look at how many schools that are competing with 69 kids or less in the state now but how many of them are getting beat up each year how long is before they coop with somebody else. This may be long term plan but before we get there is this going to kill what class b basketball is and what will all be ramifications if class b basketball doesn't garner the attention and revenue for all activities. The problem I see is that large class b schools and independents like how the system favors them. If you look back in past so many of these schools were a part of class a system where they were small school and they had same thing happening to them and they don't want to be in that position again. So we have them and activities association that want to change nothing unless revenue becomes a problem so far this is not the case. But believe me its coming because when we had these coops and less student participation in rural areas the interest is dying and numbers for next generation is much less to build off. I see it in my kids and their friends where in small school only couple played basketball and rest of their friends did other things the interest is not there. This is going to translate into fewer people in the future on watching and having their kids involved in the sport. I know I have said this before but I want to keep some of quality of things I had growing up in North Dakota.
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Re: The Myth

Postby gominers » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:41 pm

That's 56 percent of schools that are large or don't have defined district lines. That means we are lucky if we get 4 true class B schools each year in the tournament.

So "large" schools don't count as true class B schools? Where's the cutoff for a "large" school so we know what counts as a "true class B school"?

One of the main reasons the B has gained it's reputation is because of the games between the "large" schools and small schools. Hillsboro versus Epping is what everyone thinks of when they think of great B tournament games. That Hillsboro team was a "large" school. Guess they weren't a "true class B school" though.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:42 pm

Agree. Please provide us with a list of schools that are too big for B so that we can sort this out.
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Re: The Myth

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:46 pm

Any private
Central Cass
Grafton
Beulah
Hazen
Watford City
Rugby
Basically any school with an enrollment over 150
Any school where all the parents work in Fargo
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Re: The Myth

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:02 am

B-oldtimer hit on some important points. Back when I played 20 years ago, team camps were just really getting started. There was no AAU ball in the state that I knew of anyway. We started playing ball after football was done in the fall to get in shape before the season. We also had a few open gyms in the summer and played a bunch of pick up ball on the outdoor courts. It was just getting to the point where you had to play basketball year round to compete. But all of us played football, basketball, track as well and I think that played more of a role in our success than anything. I believe the coaches are seeing the value in playing multiple sports again and are promoting that more than specializing in a single sport. Hopefully that trend continues.

But 20 years ago technology was a fraction of what it is now. Everyone is so connected and can get their info/entertainment in a matter of seconds. This also plays in the decline in participation and work ethic. If people now days have to work for something long term, it usually doesn't happen. Kids and adults alike. This technology also plays a part in the demise of rivalries. People are friends with everyone in a 50+ mile radius. Back when I was in high school we never talked to kids from other schools and all we wanted to do was beat them in everything we did. Add in all the coops with neighboring schools and that intensity is gone for the most part. There are still some really good rivalries out there, but its certainly not what it used to be.

As for the three class argument, I honestly don't think it will help. Coops will not split up just so a smaller school can field a team in the bottom class. Participation and enrollments will continue to decline. Spectator interest will also continue to decline as there are fewer games in each town that coops and the casual fan won't know half the kids on the team or what the letters stand for for the visiting team coming to town. Does that mean that everything is going to come to an end and 20 years down the road there won't be any interest in class B basketball or enough teams to make it worthwhile? heck no. People will adapt, things will change, and it will be completely different than it is now even. Maybe for the better, maybe worse, who knows.
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Re: The Myth

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:49 am

Again, even if we move up the schools without defined district lines it would be a start. I guess when I think of class B schools I think of schools that have 10-30 kids in a class, Enrollment of 40-120, but I would even be ok with enrollments of 150 or under like Heimer stated. Schools I feel would belong in a middle class would be:

School (Enrollment, doubling the number from the football plan before adjustment, might not be right on but will be close)

Grafton (240)
Central Cass (260)
Hillsboro/CV (214)
Kindred (194)
Lisbon (188)
Bottineau (194)
Rugby (160)
New Town (300)
Stanley (228)
DLB (178)
Beulah (236)
Hazen (200)
Heart River (166)
FWM (218)
Standing Rock (280, tough to gauge exact number from plan)
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Re: The Myth

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:08 am

Fall enrollments
https://www.nd.gov/dpi/uploads/1213/201 ... School.pdf

NDPreps bonus points to anyone who can explain to me why they don't list the schools alphabetically.
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Re: The Myth

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:20 am

The Schwab wrote:Again, even if we move up the schools without defined district lines it would be a start. I guess when I think of class B schools I think of schools that have 10-30 kids in a class, Enrollment of 40-120, but I would even be ok with enrollments of 150 or under like Heimer stated. Schools I feel would belong in a middle class would be:

School (Enrollment, doubling the number from the football plan before adjustment, might not be right on but will be close)

Grafton (240)
Central Cass (260)
Hillsboro/CV (214)
Kindred (194)
Lisbon (188)
Bottineau (194)
Rugby (160)
New Town (300)
Stanley (228)
DLB (178)
Beulah (236)
Hazen (200)
Heart River (166)
FWM (218)
Standing Rock (280, tough to gauge exact number from plan)


Watford (if they don't go to A), Carrington, and Northern Cass would also fall in this area.
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Re: The Myth

Postby NDclassBdad » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:28 am

ndlionsfan wrote:B-oldtimer hit on some important points. Back when I played 20 years ago, team camps were just really getting started. There was no AAU ball in the state that I knew of anyway. We started playing ball after football was done in the fall to get in shape before the season. We also had a few open gyms in the summer and played a bunch of pick up ball on the outdoor courts. It was just getting to the point where you had to play basketball year round to compete. But all of us played football, basketball, track as well and I think that played more of a role in our success than anything. I believe the coaches are seeing the value in playing multiple sports again and are promoting that more than specializing in a single sport. Hopefully that trend continues.

But 20 years ago technology was a fraction of what it is now. Everyone is so connected and can get their info/entertainment in a matter of seconds. This also plays in the decline in participation and work ethic. If people now days have to work for something long term, it usually doesn't happen. Kids and adults alike. This technology also plays a part in the demise of rivalries. People are friends with everyone in a 50+ mile radius. Back when I was in high school we never talked to kids from other schools and all we wanted to do was beat them in everything we did. Add in all the coops with neighboring schools and that intensity is gone for the most part. There are still some really good rivalries out there, but its certainly not what it used to be.

As for the three class argument, I honestly don't think it will help. Coops will not split up just so a smaller school can field a team in the bottom class. Participation and enrollments will continue to decline. Spectator interest will also continue to decline as there are fewer games in each town that coops and the casual fan won't know half the kids on the team or what the letters stand for for the visiting team coming to town. Does that mean that everything is going to come to an end and 20 years down the road there won't be any interest in class B basketball or enough teams to make it worthwhile? heck no. People will adapt, things will change, and it will be completely different than it is now even. Maybe for the better, maybe worse, who knows.


Best post regarding this that I have seen....The reality is what was stated in the post above....small towns will continue to dwindle in size and co-ops will continue to happen, its simply the way things are going and there simply isn't anything anyone can do to change it. People complaining about the large and private schools wont fix it......a 3 or 4 or 5 or whatever class system wont change or fix it, it simply is what it is and no matter how many classes you break things into there will ALWAYS be someone complaining that it isn't fair, that they are too small to compete with the "big" schools in their class.

No one is handed anything in life......you want to compete then put down the x box, turn off net flix, and throw your phone in the garbage as it is difficult to develop a shot when its attached to your hand 100% of your waking hours and get in the gym......grab your buddies and go play!!
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Re: The Myth

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:53 am

I don't understand how people think a 3 class system wouldn't help the competition level out. It might actually boost participation in sports, it certainly wouldn't hurt participation. I also think it would help bring back fan support because more successful teams with a chance to win= more fans in the stands. Just because something has always been done one way doesn't mean it's the right way. The system doesn't need a complete revamping start from scratch situation, but there needs to be change.

As for the thing about kids getting out and working on their game and competing I 100 percent agree with you, but if you don't think there are kids in small towns that work their tails off but never get to a state tournament you are dead wrong.

When it comes to this situation I'm looking for equality, schools of like size and like makeup competing against each other for a chance to get to a state tournament
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Re: The Myth

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:11 am

I love the "no one is handed anything" blah blah blah.

Bull----

Oak Grove, Trinity, Ryan, Shiloh, are handed a top four finish in their region just about every year, simply by opening the doors.

Trinity being in the state tournament 11 out of 17 years is having state trips handed to them.

If the "no one is handed anything" excuse works to explain away the need to evaluate and re-evaluate competitive classification, go to a one-class system. Put your Grafton money where your Trinity money where your Shiloh mouth is.

We have four classes of football, and it works tremendously well. If we didn't hide title games at 9 AM so the precious TV stations didn't have to corrupt Saturdays and Bison Teammakers dont have to miss getting drunk at tailgating, we'd have far more attendance.

We have two classes of basketball. It doesn't work as well.
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Re: The Myth

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:22 am

The Schwab wrote:I don't understand how people think a 3 class system wouldn't help the competition level out. It might actually boost participation in sports, it certainly wouldn't hurt participation. I also think it would help bring back fan support because more successful teams with a chance to win= more fans in the stands. Just because something has always been done one way doesn't mean it's the right way. The system doesn't need a complete revamping start from scratch situation, but there needs to be change.

As for the thing about kids getting out and working on their game and competing I 100 percent agree with you, but if you don't think there are kids in small towns that work their tails off but never get to a state tournament you are dead wrong.

When it comes to this situation I'm looking for equality, schools of like size and like makeup competing against each other for a chance to get to a state tournament


A 3 class system would help level the competition. I just don't see it making much of a boost in participation or fan support. In theory, yes, but unless there is a push for the NDHSAA to split up some coops, the small schools will still not go out on their own. It might make it harder to coop in the future since some schools might not want to move up a class.
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Re: The Myth

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:40 am

Again, my whole thing is equality. I don't understand how it is legal and equitable to have a multiplier for football. They can tell me that there are studies and all of this about how free and reduced meal percentage tells us that those students won't play football all they want, but point blank this system is put in place for schools on reservations so they don't have to play AA football and so the AA and AAA schools don't have to play them.

If we are able to have a 3/5's multiplier for high number of students on free and reduced meals for higher percentage schools we should be able to have a 5/3's multiplier for schools with a lower percentage of F/R meals. Seems equal to me.
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Re: The Myth

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:02 pm

The Schwab wrote:If we are able to have a 3/5's multiplier for high number of students on free and reduced meals for higher percentage schools we should be able to have a 5/3's multiplier for schools with a lower percentage of F/R meals. Seems equal to me.

There aren't any private schools that are near the 325 borderline to make a difference.

If you move to 3 classes and allow opt ups almost all private schools will opt up.
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Re: The Myth

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:30 pm

Any school with no defined district lines is Class A in basketball and volleyball.

Pass this, and three classes materialize in

3

2

1
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