NEW: 16-17 region 1

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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby senditin » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:55 am

Nothing you can say will ever convince me or anyone I know that the private schools don't belong in class A or in their own seperate league. Nothing.
Last edited by senditin on Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Sportsrube » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:30 pm

And nothing you can say will ever convince me or anyone I know that private schools belong in Class B.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Bigbrew22 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:34 pm

6 teams that represent 5.5% of class b makes up an average of 25% of the state b tourney over the last 12 years. Because they are such a small group with one thing in common and high frequency of state appearances leads people to believe things are not as equal as the NDHSAA wants us to believe. On the bright side the other 94.5% of teams in class b have held them to only 2 state championships in the last 12 years. Now how can you tell real class b townspeople not to be irritated with those facts.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby tmd33643 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:48 pm

I went to Shiloh kindergarten through 12th grade. I also taught at Oak Grove.

I have to respond to a couple comments about parochial schools: #1 - Parochial schools do not get to draw from the entire city of Bismarck, Fargo, Minot, etc. #2 - Parochial schools do not get students to transfer from class A schools to play sports. (I suppose I can really only say this with confidence for Shiloh, but I don't think it happens at Oak Grove either. No idea about Bishop, OR, DT, or WTC).

However, I do think the parochial schools have an advantage. There are more opportunities to play basketball throughout the year with camps, leagues, etc. There are more opportunities to play tough competition (or at least I use to get to play against the Mandan, Century, and Bismarck kids at the YMCA frequently). And while Shiloh didn't get transfer students from class A schools, there are families moving from small towns to Bismarck who want their children going to a smaller school. Therefore, they send them to Shiloh instead of a class A school. Although small town schools can get athletes who have moved too but it just doesn't happen as often. Regardless of the reasons, parochial schools have more success.

I think North Dakota would benefit from going to a 3 class system. I don't know the best way to set up the 3-class system but I think the middle class should have the parochial school and the middle-sized public schools (like Valley City, Watford City, maybe Beulah, etc.). I don't know the exact sizes of all the schools or how many schools should be in each class but perhaps the parochial schools enrollment should count as 1.5x or 2x their actual enrollment. Maybe that wouldn't work, I'm not sure. Obviously the regions with the parochial schools (1, 5, 6, 7 especially) would benefit with not having Shiloh, Oak Grove, DT, Bishop, OR. But the very small class B schools from every region who struggle to make it past districts would benefit too. I think it would make it more competitive overall. Unfortunately, this would mean some schools would have to travel a little further, but I still think it would be better for the state.
Last edited by tmd33643 on Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:24 pm

Bigbrew22 wrote:6 teams that represent 5.5% of class b makes up an average of 25% of the state b tourney over the last 12 years. Because they are such a small group with one thing in common and high frequency of state appearances leads people to believe things are not as equal as the NDHSAA wants us to believe. On the bright side the other 94.5% of teams in class b have held them to only 2 state championships in the last 12 years. Now how can you tell real class b townspeople not to be irritated with those facts.


You are correct that the private schools have 25% of the state tournament berths from 2006 to 2017. 24 out of 96, for 25%.

However, the same could be said for the following group of six schools:
Four Winds (7 state appearances)
Linton (4)
North Star (4)
Berthold (3)
Turtle Lake-Mercer (3)
Parshall (3)
Total of 24 appearances

And this particular group leads the private schools in state championships over the same period of time, 3 to 2.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Flip » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:50 pm

Bisonguy, you don't see the flaw in your argument? You cherry picked the best 6 schools out of a 100. Sure the best 6 public schools are slightly better than the private schools, but what about the other 95 public schools?


tmd, good post.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Bigbrew22 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:04 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:
Bigbrew22 wrote:6 teams that represent 5.5% of class b makes up an average of 25% of the state b tourney over the last 12 years. Because they are such a small group with one thing in common and high frequency of state appearances leads people to believe things are not as equal as the NDHSAA wants us to believe. On the bright side the other 94.5% of teams in class b have held them to only 2 state championships in the last 12 years. Now how can you tell real class b townspeople not to be irritated with those facts.


You are correct that the private schools have 25% of the state tournament berths from 2006 to 2017. 24 out of 96, for 25%.

However, the same could be said for the following group of six schools:
Four Winds (7 state appearances)
Linton (4)
North Star (4)
Berthold (3)
Turtle Lake-Mercer (3)
Parshall (3)
Total of 24 appearances

And this particular group leads the private schools in state championships over the same period of time, 3 to 2.


And good for them, only TLM and Berthold are in a region with a parochial( Shiloh 7) ( Bishop 5) the others are not obviously go back and forth with other b towns in their region. Class b mini dynasty's come and go, linton has it for awhile then another team comes in for a bit and then another til it comes full circle. In region 5, 4 teams have been to state in 12 years Shiloh taking 7 of those
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:06 pm

The point: you could erase the private schools (which many would love to do) and you would still have six schools claiming 25% of the state tournament slots.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:07 pm

In Region 4, where there are no private schools, Four Winds and North Star have claimed 11 of 12 berths. Again, erasing private schools does not necessarily create more opportunities for more schools.

Edit: I counted again and found north star with three appearances rather than four. North Star and four winds have claimed 10 of 12. Whatever the facts are, I am trying to get them right.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Bigbrew22 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:22 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:In Region 4, where there are no private schools, Four Winds and North Star have claimed 11 of 12 berths. Again, erasing private schools does not necessarily create more opportunities for more schools.


FWM is a beast of its own good for them. NS has 3. When FWM run ends sombody else will step in, plenty of good schools in that region that could be next. In these b towns you may have a couple good seasons to make a run at state then kids graduate and the next class goes 3-16 for 2 years you have to rebuild. A Shiloh rebuilding year is 17-7 for example
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:26 pm

Here is my question: what would it take to get us to a place where people would say "Shiloh is a beast of its own, good for them."?

If we went to three classes, would that do it? Or would these still be the same six teams to root against?
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Bigbrew22 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:30 pm

Just curious how much a parochial school coach gets paid? Small town public school coaches don't make much they get compensated for volunteering more or less. Is it the same for parochial schools or can they afford to hire a coach outright?
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Bigbrew22 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:36 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:Here is my question: what would it take to get us to a place where people would say "Shiloh is a beast of its own, good for them."?

If we went to three classes, would that do it? Or would these still be the same six teams to root against?


Ok fine Shiloh, Dickinson Trinity, Bishop Ryan, Oak Grove are all beasts .. of they're...own?
It would probably take seeing schools go thru the same growing/rebuilding pains EVERY b school goes through. The fact that it never happens for these schools is why this is even a conversation
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Flip » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 pm

Bigbrew22 wrote:Just curious how much a parochial school coach gets paid? Small town public school coaches don't make much they get compensated for volunteering more or less. Is it the same for parochial schools or can they afford to hire a coach outright?

I'm guessing private school coaches get paid less. This was maybe ~15 years ago, but at the time all Shiloh coaches were volunteers. I don't know if that has changed.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby tmd33643 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:40 pm

I coached at a private school and a public school. I got paid a lot more at the public school. And I do know Mike Dwyer coached at Shiloh without getting paid.

Bisonguy06 wrote:In Region 4, where there are no private schools, Four Winds and North Star have claimed 11 of 12 berths. Again, erasing private schools does not necessarily create more opportunities for more schools.

Edit: I counted again and found north star with three appearances rather than four. North Star and four winds have claimed 10 of 12. Whatever the facts are, I am trying to get them right.


I think if we had 3 classes, Four Winds would be in the middle class with the parochial schools. Well I guess I don't know that as I'm not sure how we would set up a 3-class system but I think their enrollment is 200 something so I would assume they would be in the middle class. I don't know what North Star's enrollment is but I'm guessing it is less so not sure what class they would be in.

Either way, that would give more opportunities for the smaller schools. It might be what it takes to get the student-athletes at the smaller schools to decide to care about basketball enough to go to the gym more and get better when they realize they don't have to beat Four Winds or Oak Grove or whoever else to go to state. Obviously there will still be some schools who don't have as much success as others but I still think there would be more schools going to state.

Look at Region 7. It has mostly been DT and Beulah. If there was 3 classes, Beulah and DT would be in the middle class (at least I would assume so again) and that would mean that Hettinger, South Heart, Bowman, Killdeer, and the other schools in that region might have been going to state as well.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Flip » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:59 pm

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=13055

here is a thread created about this time last year that has some 3 class proposals. I think if you had to go strictly by enrollment most/all of the private schools would opt up.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby knowledge » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:29 pm

Flip wrote:http://northdakotapreps.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=13055

here is a thread created about this time last year that has some 3 class proposals. I think if you had to go strictly by enrollment most/all of the private schools would opt up.



I think Larimore will be too big - should probably create a fourth class.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby B-oldtimer » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:05 am

The private schools have decided advantage over public schools especially in class b basketball. Like father said here earlier how his kids began playing basketball. First is they were populated city where there were leagues for these to kids to play in when they were younger. Second if your able to afford private school your able to afford to do the traveling teams and your in large city where it possible to take in part in these activities more so than if your small rural town. Also your able to send them to camps to develop their skills in basketball. Third when these kids are playing when they are younger the kids and parents tend to become a group so its not actively recruiting its more coming together as group especially when kids seem to find other kids with same interests and loves. Don't get me wrong here there is nothing wrong here and I think what all people want is best situation for there kids. But these advantages play big dividends especially in basketball because it sport where skills improve with extra playing time, being able play against better competition, and to have coaching through your development. Also if you get say 2 to 3 above average players developed with several average players you have very competitive team. Lets just say for instance now you have parent and kid that is above average and maybe elite player and there looking to attend school where they are going to be competitive year in year out with chance to go to state year in year out say in Junior high. a private school probably fits this requirement and you will have good chance to play all four years and very likely go to state number of those years. I know this happens and I willing to bet people in private schools know this too. Now comparing to majority of the public schools this desn't happen to often and when it does everyone knows about it. Basketball is sport that couple of players make huge difference in how you compete. The father said of football they are not as competitive but here it takes more numbers especially if are moved up class in football where they are in 11 man ranks. Shiloh has had more success in 9 man but here again number are less.
Also there talk of some public schools that have had success at the state level. Fourwinds is probably the one has been most successful programs of public schools. They are larger of class b schools and basketball is what they compete in and kids there seem to only want to play basketball. There football program struggles to just compete and keep there numbers up. They don't have baseball team. I do know kids there love playing basketball if you drive through there it common to see kids playing basketball on play grounds through summer. Also they are near enough to Devils lake where kids play in summer league there plus what they play back at home. Having the number of kids to be able to just play basketball in pickup games on regular basis is such advantage to developing basketball skills.
So many of class b schools now are so spread out and cooped together it just about makes it impossible for them to have what these schools have. Also these small town schools same athletes are playing probably 3 or 4 sports in given year. Then like our school who was in coop had it top7 players spread out in rectangle of 25 by 35 miles with players in very far corners of that rectangle. If you had even open gym for some players it was 50 mile trip if it was in either town. So you see the competitive advantage these private schools just have in practicing and playing the game
This is why I agree that private schools should be not in class b either there in class A or there own state tournament. I look again this year we again have Fargo Oak Grove, Dickinson Trinity, and Minot Ryan three out the eight regions again or 3 out of 4 regions that have private schools in them. That's pretty high success rate.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby mnnd » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:28 am

b-oldtimer- respectful post and certainly can see the points of 3 classes. I don't have the history of ND Class B over the decades to compare to but would agree that year in and year out a successful basketball program is more likely at a private school due to the early-beginning playing of the players, summer league availability and would argue the quality of the coaching staff.

My initial post on this was not to suggest 2 class vs 3 class is better/worse or whom should be in a 3 class system...only to state that as an OG parent, I have many friends who are parents of other R1 players that our son has played AAU with our gotten to know at camps, etc and find us rooting for them hopefully as much as they would root for us.

Someone replied that whatever I could present as info would never change their mind on the private vs public question...fair enough...won't try but I can tell you that our son and his teammates have received numerous textes from R1 players wishing them luck this week....perhaps that says more than I could ever write.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:47 am

mnnd wrote:b-oldtimer- respectful post and certainly can see the points of 3 classes. I don't have the history of ND Class B over the decades to compare to but would agree that year in and year out a successful basketball program is more likely at a private school due to the early-beginning playing of the players, summer league availability and would argue the quality of the coaching staff.

My initial post on this was not to suggest 2 class vs 3 class is better/worse or whom should be in a 3 class system...only to state that as an OG parent, I have many friends who are parents of other R1 players that our son has played AAU with our gotten to know at camps, etc and find us rooting for them hopefully as much as they would root for us.

Someone replied that whatever I could present as info would never change their mind on the private vs public question...fair enough...won't try but I can tell you that our son and his teammates have received numerous textes from R1 players wishing them luck this week....perhaps that says more than I could ever write.


mnnd's posts are likely in response from the post below from a couple days ago:

UNDSiouxfan wrote:There is no dilemma and that's an easy question... anyone but Dickinson, Minot, or Fargo. And to answer your question more clearly, there are Region 1 fans and there are Fargo fans. Region 1 fans cheer on the small towns and we do not cheer for Fargo. Conversely, I do not know of a single Fargo fan that will ever cheer for anyone but their coveted Grovers.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby hoophoophoop » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:21 pm

IMO, I'm from Richland and a 3 class system would ruin basketball, not everyone was meant to go to state, I would take more pleasure in beating the bigger schools than going to state beating smaller schools. We had a shot this year but didn't work out, the better team won. Plus it only takes 3 to 4 really good players to put a good team together, look at Milnor couple years back, that's how it is suppose to be.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby NodakQ2 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:15 pm

hoophoophoop wrote:IMO, I'm from Richland and a 3 class system would ruin basketball, not everyone was meant to go to state, I would take more pleasure in beating the bigger schools than going to state beating smaller schools. We had a shot this year but didn't work out, the better team won. Plus it only takes 3 to 4 really good players to put a good team together, look at Milnor couple years back, that's how it is suppose to be.


I LIKE this post...
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby winner-within » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:58 pm

hoophoophoop wrote:IMO, I'm from Richland and a 3 class system would ruin basketball, not everyone was meant to go to state, I would take more pleasure in beating the bigger schools than going to state beating smaller schools. We had a shot this year but didn't work out, the better team won. Plus it only takes 3 to 4 really good players to put a good team together, look at Milnor couple years back, that's how it is suppose to be.



Correct!!....good Job to the Richland team also!!
Region one was pretty balanced with the top 5 and OG stepped up at the end....
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby Big Blue » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:44 pm

I am absolutely for a three-class system. That is....only if you can guarantee that this would result in small schools having teams again. If it means Wyndmere and Lidgerwood had squads, Hope-Page and Finley-Sharon, Leeds and Maddock, Hillsboro and Central Valley, Four Winds and Minnewaukan, Park River and Fordville-Lankin, ok you get the picture. Unless that happens, there is absolutely no need for three classes. Co-ops are weakening the whole class b small-town image about in my opinion. But that is neither here or three. I would love it if those schools I mention had their own teams. They could have their own teams, but the smaller schools need to co-op to be competitive. So until then, keep the current system.
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Re: NEW: 16-17 region 1

Postby baloncesto » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:49 am

I'm a region one guy and definitely respect OG/Coach Card and what they have done over the years. They have had a terrific program with great players over the years. But, there is something special about when small town team plays against them and the way the whole civic or the gym at NDSCS cheers against them. OG has always been very successful in those games especially recently but there's something special about seeing that small school take down the larger school. To me, that's the magic of class B. A game like Lamoure vs Trinity in the 2013 quarterfinals is a perfect example. Nobody expected Lamoure to have a chance. They were smaller/less talented and in reality just a huge underdog. But they played harder and deserved to win that game. That's what the B is all about.
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