The Latest Plan

Class B Boys
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby UNDSiouxfan » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:07 am

I truly think 3 classes would take away from the "B" being the biggest tournament we have in ND.

Two ideas I would support:

1. All Private schools with a city population of over 10,000 are required to be in class A. (You live in a class A town - you can play with the class A big boys)

2. A super regional format for all Regions, with the top 2 teams advancing in each region. Loser of the championship has to play 3rd place winner in a double elimination format. Games would be on a Mon/Tues before the state tourney. Monday night at the home of the higher seed, if a Tuesday game then at the home of the lower seed. (Can you imagine the excitement Mon/Tues?? Plus, it gives some actual incentive for the Regional 3rd place game)

3. State B tourney of 16 teams. Many of us have been watching the "B" for years, and one thing I take away every single year is that some Regions are watered down when compared to others.

Just my two cents from a ND BBB fan...
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby heimer » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:01 pm

Your 16-team tournament is no more than everyone getting a trophy.

From the defenders of the status quo, I hear that's bad.

I'm not for everyone getting a trophy. I'm for making it as fair to compete for trophies as we can.

A 16-team tournament this year would have involved two more parochials, Oak Grove and Ryan. Beulah I think was in a semi-final. They are a mid-classer. Didn't Watford City play for a regional title?

Not much changes in a 16-team tournament. And shoving all parochials into A isn't the right way to classify either. They benefit from being in big cities, but not as much as big-city teams.

There's room for a middle division here.

As for tonight: you watch. Everyone will rant and rave about the crowd being so awesome that nothing is wrong with the B. Easy to draw fans when you have three big-city teams.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby winner-within » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:11 pm

heimer wrote:Your 16-team tournament is no more than everyone getting a trophy.

From the defenders of the status quo, I hear that's bad.

I'm not for everyone getting a trophy. I'm for making it as fair to compete for trophies as we can.

A 16-team tournament this year would have involved two more parochials, Oak Grove and Ryan. Beulah I think was in a semi-final. They are a mid-classer. Didn't Watford City play for a regional title?

Not much changes in a 16-team tournament. And shoving all parochials into A isn't the right way to classify either. They benefit from being in big cities, but not as much as big-city teams.

There's room for a middle division here.

As for tonight: you watch. Everyone will rant and rave about the crowd being so awesome that nothing is wrong with the B. Easy to draw fans when you have three big-city teams.


actually harder....the Big City teams there have Bigger schools (class A) that have small crowds in general....their privates are not much different..
Last edited by winner-within on Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby UNDSiouxfan » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:26 pm

actually, it would not have assured that two more Parochials would be in. In my scenario, Oak Grove would've had to play Hankinson - who pounded Oak Grove at OG a few weeks prior. Ryan would've played DLB - and that could've went in DLB's favor.

I understand your point that not everyone deserves a trophy. It's life.

Having 3 classes is not a bad idea...just call it the AA, the A, and the B. But again, if this would be implemented the privates should not be in the B.

The "B" will still be the main event and ND needs to keep it that way. Small towns belong there, not small privates located in cities. Let's get back to emptying out the Strasburg's & the Kenmare's for this great event that happens once a year. Make ND great again...
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Flip » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:05 pm

Watford City failed to make it to regionals.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby east sider » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:56 pm

heimer wrote:Your 16-team tournament is no more than everyone getting a trophy.

From the defenders of the status quo, I hear that's bad.

I'm not for everyone getting a trophy. I'm for making it as fair to compete for trophies as we can.

A 16-team tournament this year would have involved two more parochials, Oak Grove and Ryan. Beulah I think was in a semi-final. They are a mid-classer. Didn't Watford City play for a regional title?

Not much changes in a 16-team tournament. And shoving all parochials into A isn't the right way to classify either. They benefit from being in big cities, but not as much as big-city teams.

There's room for a middle division here.

As for tonight: you watch. Everyone will rant and rave about the crowd being so awesome that nothing is wrong with the B. Easy to draw fans when you have three big-city teams.


For what its worth I've changed my opinion in just the last month and now agree there needs to be a change. Keep up the fight!
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Flip » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:28 pm

How old is the Our Redeemers school?
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby nolan4 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:38 pm

If this is the plan, I still think the middle class will have the best crowds in a state tourney.............I prefer the way it is, but if it is to change, I think the 150 cutoff , plus parochials is the way to go(since this is the main reason for people wanting the change), it does put about 30 in the middle class and makes it somewhat(not really) meaningful to make a state tourney...........and if you are going to go that far, why not 4 classes, since they do it in football, then you have about 30 to 40 in each Class.......If 3 is good, isnt 4 better, I mean give the small schools(Alexander's) a chance to say they been there.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby nolan4 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:47 pm

heimer wrote:Your 16-team tournament is no more than everyone getting a trophy.

From the defenders of the status quo, I hear that's bad.

I'm not for everyone getting a trophy. I'm for making it as fair to compete for trophies as we can.

A 16-team tournament this year would have involved two more parochials, Oak Grove and Ryan. Beulah I think was in a semi-final. They are a mid-classer. Didn't Watford City play for a regional title?

Not much changes in a 16-team tournament. And shoving all parochials into A isn't the right way to classify either. They benefit from being in big cities, but not as much as big-city teams.

There's room for a middle division here.

As for tonight: you watch. Everyone will rant and rave about the crowd being so awesome that nothing is wrong with the B. Easy to draw fans when you have three big-city teams.

So you think, other than maybe Minot sports fans, that other people from Bismarck and Dickinson who follow the public schools really go to the State 'B'? That is laughable. Good crowd tonight because Minot sports fans do watch B basketball and the top 4 teams in the State are playing each other............I dont believe the cash cow state tourney will change............I like the 2 class system, but it is not perfect, and I come from a small B town, and would still like the Valley City's, Turtle Mt's , Wahpetons of the world to be in B if they wanted.......I loved when my small town beat up the so called kings of the Region,it was extra special.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby nolan4 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:51 pm

Flip wrote:How old is the Our Redeemers school?

High school started in 1995.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby B-oldtimer » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:48 am

I think if they do a third class the middle class should be done like football selecting the next 16 to 18 schools in size from the public schools and all parochial schools plus anyone wanting to play up a class.
Also should be done on straight enrollment numbers no adjusting the enrollments bases on meals etc. I
was looking if you did this you would be putting Four Winds in at cut off point when they such number out they had try outs and had to cut kids we would be not fixing problem.

I also get tired of argument that this will water down the tournament but really all it has been for last 10 years is tournament made up of this class of 30 and very small schools just falling farther behind. I have seen it where these kids from the small school just go through the seasons knowing that they don't even have chance of winning or even lucky enough to make the Region tournament. I know now there are some schools that have not been to Region tournament in 10 years and playing all three nights of tournament is even longer. I also been watching over years and scores differential have widen even farther over the years. This is has been proven even on this site where it has been discussed a mercy rule because of one sided scores.

I can tell you one thing for sure I grew up playing basketball and loved watching and still like following it today. But I can tell you that my son played basketball but he doesn't have interest I have had or my generation had for basketball. I think it because of some of what I said above and how the game has changed but we won't have the next generation that is going to be as interested as we were. That's why I have thought state needed to do something long time ago and why I feel they may have cost themselves generation less interested in high school basketball.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Trish » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:08 am

What if we left the two class system and restructured the regions puting all the Private schools in the same region, that way one only one private school would make to state each year. Probably couldn't work because of travel, but I think it would be interesting.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:17 am

I'm not saying this to brag or anything like that, but every time I talk to someone about this subject, I get almost unanimous support for 16-16-the rest.

Top 16 enrollments AA
Next 16, including all privates A
The rest B
If Shanley and St Marys want to play up, two more schools replace them.

A and B girls seasons start at the same time B girls start now.
AA season starts same time A starts now
A and B boys seasons start same time B starts now.

A and B girls tournaments same location. Seed through 5. Put 3 seed and draw and 4 vs. 5 on same floor for both classes first day, those games televised. Other games free internet stream through NDHSAA

Next day, semi-semi-semi-semi. Third day 3rd 3rd final final

Do that again for boys. If the TV networks can make it work with two channels (digital TV has changed the world), then do all the first day games on TV.

This will work just fine.

Now, this is just quick, based on the numbers that ndlionsfan supplied earlier in this thread:

AA East: North, South, Davies, WF, Sheyenne, RR, Central Jamestown
West: Bis, Century, Legacy, Mandan, Minot Belcourt, Williston, Dickinson

A East: Shanley, Oak Grove, Devils Lake, Wahpeton, Valley City, Central Cass, Grafton, Shiloh Christian
West: Our Redeemers, Ryan, Trinity, St. Marys, Trinity Christian, Watford, Beulah, New Town,

Yeah, I know, Shiloh in the east is a problem, but they can play a two-point schedule and keep their normal opponents around them.

If Shanley and St. Marys opt up, Stanley and Hillsboro-CV are next men in.

This will work.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby winner-within » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:41 pm

Its all about the Base ($$$$) no treble
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby winner-within » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:58 pm

Minot, ND - No specifics are on the table. But the North Dakota High School Activities Association board of directors will be looking into the merits of a 3-class basketball system in the future.


On Friday, a straw vote at the annual meeting of the NDHSAA District Chairs Committee passed by a 14-2 margin for the NDHSAA Board of Directors to look into a 3-class system. No specific plan was designated.

"We want to make it right for the kids, what's right for the competitive level and for the kids we're serving,'' said District 15 committee member Randy Cranston, the athletic director at Watford City.

Cranston said District 15 members have four different proposals to be considered. "I don't know which one of them is the best,'' Cranston said.

"We can propose a plan. But it won't be here.''

The straw vote means the 11-member NDHSAA board will begin exploring a switch from the current 2-class system at its June meeting.

"It's been on the district chairs' agenda at their meeting the last two years,'' Matt Fetsch, executive director of the NDHSAA, said. "There wasn't enough interest for it to go to a vote. But opinions change.

"There are three non-public schools playing in the state tournament semis. Historically, this (discussion) seems to come up based on who's in the state tournament.''

Final say in implementation of a 3-class system belongs to the NDHSAA board. Fetsch said that, historically, the board has gone through a process to get feedback from member schools.

NDHSAA board vice president Brad Rinas of Washburn said one thing he would be nervous about in a 3-class system is watering down the state tournaments. Rinas said his opinion of a 3-class system has evolved through the years.

"I was (initially) adamantly opposed to a 3-class system,'' Rinas said. "But I've changed my opinion. I'm not a proponent, but I'm not opposed to it.

"When past 3-class proposals have come up and been voted down, the majority (opposing change) has come from the small schools, not the large schools. I think one fear is (a 3-class system) will place artificial barriers about playing teams we normally play. If you're a B school, will you want to play a C school?''

Fetsch said not having a specific proposal in line won't impede the process.

"I think the idea is to start with the board discussing it and go from there as far as something specific,'' Fetsch said. "I don't know what will happen. It will be our board's call. But a 14-2 straw vote will probably open it up.''

Fetsch said statewide discussion about switching from the current 2-class system to a 3-class system has come up several times in the past and has gone to a vote of member schools. "A few times, it's been close to passing,'' Fetsch said.

The straw vote is in favor of a switch to a 3-class system for the 2017-18 school year.

"It would be a challenge to get it done that quickly,'' Fetsch said. "But it wouldn't be impossible.''
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby CC1983 » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:12 pm

heimer wrote:I'm not saying this to brag or anything like that, but every time I talk to someone about this subject, I get almost unanimous support for 16-16-the rest.

Top 16 enrollments AA
Next 16, including all privates A
The rest B
If Shanley and St Marys want to play up, two more schools replace them.

A and B girls seasons start at the same time B girls start now.
AA season starts same time A starts now
A and B boys seasons start same time B starts now.

A and B girls tournaments same location. Seed through 5. Put 3 seed and draw and 4 vs. 5 on same floor for both classes first day, those games televised. Other games free internet stream through NDHSAA

Next day, semi-semi-semi-semi. Third day 3rd 3rd final final

Do that again for boys. If the TV networks can make it work with two channels (digital TV has changed the world), then do all the first day games on TV.

This will work just fine.

Now, this is just quick, based on the numbers that ndlionsfan supplied earlier in this thread:

AA East: North, South, Davies, WF, Sheyenne, RR, Central Jamestown
West: Bis, Century, Legacy, Mandan, Minot Belcourt, Williston, Dickinson

A East: Shanley, Oak Grove, Devils Lake, Wahpeton, Valley City, Central Cass, Grafton, Shiloh Christian
West: Our Redeemers, Ryan, Trinity, St. Marys, Trinity Christian, Watford, Beulah, New Town,

Yeah, I know, Shiloh in the east is a problem, but they can play a two-point schedule and keep their normal opponents around them.

If Shanley and St. Marys opt up, Stanley and Hillsboro-CV are next men in.

This will work.


I don't hate this plan. One question, with football, if a team in A opts up, is the next highest 9 man forced to go to A. Also that gives you 6 state tournaments do you see them just rotating in the 4 cities? Or do you see each weekend they are in the same place.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Flip » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:36 pm

if they go to 3 classes I don't think the middle class will be 16. I think it will be more in the 20-24 range.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby classB4ever » Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:29 pm

heimer wrote:I'm not saying this to brag or anything like that, but every time I talk to someone about this subject, I get almost unanimous support for 16-16-the rest.


You don't have to brag. You were right all along. Won't agree with all your statements, but have been behind you in spirit. Doesn't matter though. Class B is dead. Ran into the ground. There is no reviving it. People talk about Class A bb being better. They installed the shot clock to mimic the up temp B game from the 80's and 90's and it did wonders for the class A game. At least they did something. They understood there was a problem and did something. It's too late for class B. I live and breathe class b basketball and unfortunately, think it's too late to revive it. Hope someone can prove me wrong.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby scruffy » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:54 am

Why throw away the one tournament that has such a great atmosphere? Three classes will water down the attendance, the quality of ball will be reduced and the co-ops that have enrollment near the cut off number will be broken up leaving a lot of the co-op schools with no where to go. Ask some longtime South Dakota basketball fans how the three class system is working there! Most I know don't think it was a good idea now that they have 20/20 hindsight. Emotions were high enough when the co-ops were first formed, imaging how hard feelings will prevail in all the small towns that will be affected by a co-op breakup. A three class system won't be easy for the smaller towns in the "alphabet league". Instead, go to a 16 team "B" tournament. Opening round could be over two days (say a Monday/Tuesday) with the elite eight coming back for the traditional three day tourney starting Thursday. It would allow that "sleeper" team to get hot and make a run...
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Kwoods » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:32 am

[quote="heimer"]So, the details of the new plan are coming out:

http://www.inforum.com/news/3987575-mcf ... rth-dakota

McFeely's delusional, and incorrect, references to "Hoosiers" aside (after all, Hoosiers can't happen, because we have two classes, not one, but he struggles with counting, I guess), this plan taught me a lesson.

It taught me to save my emails.

One of the sources quoted in this article (I can't say which, since I no longer have the email) ripped me a new one several years ago for daring to suggest that Watford City had an advantage over other schools due to their size.

(I mentioned the subject of the exchange, not the individual.)






I have suggested for years they have the advantage. Being a town that is in the same district and region it makes it all the sweeter when you do beat them. I don't want to go away from these rivals like WC and NT that we have had for years and years. I do wish that they (WC) would have to go class A just for a year or two and maybe their egos would come down to Earth like the rest of us.
I also said they were self serving for setting up this plan and got ripped by a WC member of this forum for starting rumors and this member told me WC didn't set up a plan. Once he finally checked his facts I received an apology but that just shows what an ego these people have. At one point WC wanted to get rid of the reservation schools saying these small schools have an advantage when they got beat by Parshall.
I hope it doesn't pass. Move all Church schools to their own region or to Class A problem is solved.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:24 am

Couple things I've been thinking about...

If a plan is brought forth for three classes, I think the best chance of passing is if its modeled after the football plan. Put a set number of schools for the top and middle divisions, then the rest in the smallest division. My vote is 16-32-rest. Don't know if they'll go that much in the middle, though. An enrollment cutoff around 150 just isn't going to work. There are too many schools near that number that will fluctuate from year to year, switching classes back and forth all the time. I also hope they don't redo the classes every 2 years like the football plan. At least go 5 years before reevaluating the enrollment data. Some schools will move back and forth, but it will be considerably less often due to the timeline and that they still may remain in the top whatever number of schools even if their enrollment drops a bit.

Secondly, use the multiplier they are using in the football division for the next plan. It's already been developed and the information is easy to find. Use 7-10 enrollment or current 9-12 to base, doesn't matter. What this does is naturally "inflate" some of the private schools and bedroom communities enrollment as most of those schools have a higher income based than rural schools which, argue all you want, does increase participation. This would put Oak Grove, Dickinson Trinity, and Shiloh squarely in the middle class. I'm not for the argument that if you're school is in a class A town, you are automatically moved up a class. It has no merit. Yes there are advantages, but in a school of 50-60 kids they are going to be as compounded. Our Redeemers and Williston Trinity are two of the smaller schools in their respective regions. Heck, Minot Ryan is even in the bottom half. Plus, I see a big difference in the first 3 schools mentioned compared to the last. What class B options are there for kids in Bismarck or Fargo? None, really, except for Shiloh and Oak Grove unless they are going out to Wilton, New Salem, Kindred, or Central Cass. What class B options are there for kids in Minot? ORCS, Ryan, Nedrose, South Prairie....you can even add DLB and Surrey that are basically right on the edge of city limits. Splits up the options and they have less of an advantage than the other 3. Plus if all schools in a class A town need to move up, I'm sure people would make an exception for Nedrose and South Prairie which totally contradicts everything said against the private schools.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Bigbrew22 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:04 pm

Ndlions......nedrose and south prairie are public schools. Nobody's is complaining about that. Some people may reference being in a class A town being the problem but I think everyone is on the same page about being a private school in a class A town is the problem because they can be selective and restrict enrollment. Public schools in these towns that are class B aren't selective and when their enrollment get to high they will have to up class just like everyone else. I agree with much of ur post tho like a 150 cut off probably won't work and the 5 yr enrollment eval
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:16 pm

Bigbrew22 wrote:Ndlions......nedrose and south prairie are public schools. Nobody's is complaining about that. Some people may reference being in a class A town being the problem but I think everyone is on the same page about being a private school in a class A town is the problem because they can be selective and restrict enrollment. Public schools in these towns that are class B aren't selective and when their enrollment get to high they will have to up class just like everyone else. I agree with much of ur post tho like a 150 cut off probably won't work and the 5 yr enrollment eval


Honestly, if you think that statement is true wouldn't all the private schools be at 300 students in high school? It is just as easy for a kid from Minot High to transfer to Nedrose, South Prairie, Surrey, or DLB than it is for them to transfer to ORCS or Minot Ryan. Same rules apply
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Bigbrew22 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:30 pm

I do believe that. Who has to worry about transfer rules if u change schools before the freshman year. I don't doubt for a second that Bismarck middle schools are being watched by Shiloh. You can say they aren't or that they wouldn't do that but you'd have a hard time convincing me. Neither of us can prove anything. And why can't they be selective and restrict enrollment they are a private school they can do whatever they want!
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:57 pm

Bigbrew22 wrote:I do believe that. Who has to worry about transfer rules if u change schools before the freshman year.


Yes, that's correct and there's probably some people at these schools that are looking at JH kids. But public schools can also do that as well and I'm sure do in those areas.

But to say they limit their enrollment to remain class B is absurd. Like I said, if they did that they would all be at 300 kids in HS. Just business common sense. There is no reason for them to keep their enrollment at half that or less.
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