Great Class B Towns

Class B Boys
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby bequickdonthurry » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:10 am

heimer wrote:On this board, it's not about the last time. It's always just a countdown till the next time.


Don't worry about being banned, you're the reason for much of the traffic on this site. It's a lot like talk radio. I don't tune in because I really enjoy listening. I just want to know what you (or the other guys behind the mike) are going to say today that's going to tork me off.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if all this type of passion were directed at things in life that truly mattered.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby winner-within » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:56 am

heimer wrote:You can argue this all you want, but you're required to overlook the differences to make your argument.

Sure, Thompson and the Cass schools (let's not leave out Kindred) will grow with parents that live there but work in big cities. The difference is they still live there. They choose to live in the school district their kids attend.

Privates have no defined districts. They draw from the entire community. Thompson and Northern Cass draw from their district.

Stating that those schools have even a similar advantage is ridiculous. No one who lives in Fargo is sending their kid to Northern Cass because they can't make the team at Davies. But they will send them to Oak Grove. No one who can't make Red River is going out to Thompson, but if you don't make Century, Shiloh is an option.

All you are doing is, again, a tried and true tactic of the status quo: muddy the issue with bedroom communities somehow enjoying the same fruits of the private school poisonous tree. Classic tactic on this board. "Oh, you think this is an problem, we'll look at this." Works too often.

In the end, the solution is the same anyway, so what's the freaking point? Form the third class, and when the bedroom communities' enrollment growth pushes them over the line, they will move up. But the privates have advantages right now that FAR outpace the bedrooms. To equate the two shows a complete lack of knowledge and a closed-mindedness typical of every B shot fan.



just so you know heimer I'm not arguing....but a thread like this gives opportunity to discuss all the lop-sidedness which I believe exists throughout the state in

1. bedroom comms
2. privates
3. Native areas
4. oil towns (although this could be diminishing)

but much more prolific in privates is what your saying....I hear you
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:08 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Northern Cass has never qualified along with ORCS. SZ only been there a couple times in the history of the school and not since 2002. Kenmare has 1 other appearance (1988) in the last 50 years. I think we have a pretty good make up of class B in this tourney.

Complain all you want about Trinity and Shiloh, but FWM has been there just as much in the last decade. Where's your argument against them? There were just as many reservation schools in region championships last night as there were private schools. Do they have an unfair advantage, too? I understand these private schools do have advantages being in the big cities, but its really no different than Thompson, Kindred, Central Cass, Wilton, South Heart, Surrey, DLB, etc.


ndlionsfan should receive a warning from the mods on this post. He/she won't, because mods of a feather stick together, but this post hints at racism that should, in no way, be tolerated on this board.

Schools on Native American lands have defined boundaries, as I understand it. Privates do not. Even if this is untrue, those schools are not located with the same proximity to major markets that privates are.

I find the term "reservation schools" hostile and abusive. They are public school districts. I've called games at Four Winds. I have seen non-Native American kids play on these teams because their parents lived in the district. It may be rare, but it happens. They are not "reservation schools". They are public schools located on Native American lands. And I'm as non-politically correct as the day is long.

ndlionsfan, choose your words carefully. You're a mod on this board. To imply blatant racism is a setback to this forum.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby winner-within » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:32 pm

a lot on this forum used to say "Rez schools" I had nipped that in the Bud a few years back...........
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Flip » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:57 pm

heimer wrote:Schools on Native American lands have defined boundaries, as I understand it. Privates do not. Even if this is untrue, those schools are not located with the same proximity to major markets that privates are.

Lets say all the private schools in ND have defined boundaries next year, what changes?
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:05 pm

Flip wrote:lets say all the private schools in ND have defined boundaries next year, what changes?


Yeah, cause that will happen. Private schools cannot have defined districts, because they are not a part of a public entity.

But to answer your question (which, again, is an obvious attempt to take focus off of 3 division), a defined district for Oak Grove, Ryan, Our Redeemers, Shiloh, Trinity, and Trinity Christian would push a ton of students into their schools. A defined district would mean that's the district a kid goes to school in (which would be accompanied by a per pupil payment from the state for tuition, again, this will absolutely not happen). So, their enrollments would skyrocket, and, guess what........

Yep.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Bigbrew22 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:56 pm

Well I think this argument is dead we need a third class and the opposition I hear to it isn't very convincing.
So let's talk about how to make it happen, what happened with the watford talks is the NDHSAA looking into this or blowing it off. How can we make our voice heard. Can in fact we force their hand in the matter or do the people have no say in this. Anybody know how soon we could hear an answer from the NDHSAA.

Let's start looking at productive subject here instead of what it's turned into.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby woodchuck10 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:14 pm

heimer wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Northern Cass has never qualified along with ORCS. SZ only been there a couple times in the history of the school and not since 2002. Kenmare has 1 other appearance (1988) in the last 50 years. I think we have a pretty good make up of class B in this tourney.

Complain all you want about Trinity and Shiloh, but FWM has been there just as much in the last decade. Where's your argument against them? There were just as many reservation schools in region championships last night as there were private schools. Do they have an unfair advantage, too? I understand these private schools do have advantages being in the big cities, but its really no different than Thompson, Kindred, Central Cass, Wilton, South Heart, Surrey, DLB, etc.


ndlionsfan should receive a warning from the mods on this post. He/she won't, because mods of a feather stick together, but this post hints at racism that should, in no way, be tolerated on this board.

Schools on Native American lands have defined boundaries, as I understand it. Privates do not. Even if this is untrue, those schools are not located with the same proximity to major markets that privates are.

I find the term "reservation schools" hostile and abusive. They are public school districts. I've called games at Four Winds. I have seen non-Native American kids play on these teams because their parents lived in the district. It may be rare, but it happens. They are not "reservation schools". They are public schools located on Native American lands. And I'm as non-politically correct as the day is long.

ndlionsfan, choose your words carefully. You're a mod on this board. To imply blatant racism is a setback to this forum.


What exactly is racist about ndlionsfan comment? Four Winds is on an Indian Reservation so why can't you call them a reservation school? We refer to the privates as parochial.

Dunseith benefited from two Class A transfers from Belcourt this year. Some would consider that an unfair advantage. Dunseith is not located on the reservation but is a mostly native school. I think the privates add more excitement to the B. It gives everyone a team or two to root against when the tournaments start.

Rather than a third class we need a larger Class A. All the privates should be up there as well as Grafton, Beulah, Watford City, Northern and Central Cass, etc. This would make the Class A Tournament a bigger event like the B.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Bigbrew22 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:39 pm

Woodchuck........Beulah, Hazen , Watford can't really compete with the big schools either there is just too big of a grey area to ignore the need for a third class.
And did those Belcourt players transfer while they lived in Belcourt or did they move to Dunsieth. People move all the time
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby woodchuck10 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:27 pm

Bigbrew22 wrote:Woodchuck........Beulah, Hazen , Watford can't really compete with the big schools either there is just too big of a grey area to ignore the need for a third class.
And did those Belcourt players transfer while they lived in Belcourt or did they move to Dunsieth. People move all the time


North Dakota doesn't need 3 state champions in basketball. The Schwabe says it best, something like, a school of 175 can compete with a school of 700 better than a school of 50 can compete with a school of 175. Something along those lines. 2 class will always be better than 3. Only way I would be in favor of a third class is if the top two classes play in one state tournament.

As for the transfers they both played for Belcourt last year. One played a lot and the other didn't play much on their state tournament team. They are both seniors this year and transferred to Dunsieth. I'm not going to get into what I have heard about the transferring. Im just saying that schools not near Bismarck, Fargo, Grand Forks, Minot benefit from transfers as well. North Star had a Leeds transfer a few years ago. People find ways around the rules, we're clever that way.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Flip » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:33 pm

woodchuck10 wrote:The Schwabe says it best, something like, a school of 175 can compete with a school of 700 better than a school of 50 can compete with a school of 175. Something along those lines.

how can this be construed as an argument for 2 classes?
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Bigbrew22 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:26 pm

well then maybe the answer is ban private schools from competing in class b sports period! I couldn't see putting some of theses middle sized schools against century or Minot high.

What is so horrible about three champions. Champions of their class....
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby noles4ever » Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:36 pm

Woodchuck, be careful, when you say transfer you imply that no physical move of residence occurred. The leeds athlete you speak of, his parents actually moved to Cando, and still live there. The question remains if or nay there was an actual move of the Dunseith athletes, but if you lay allegations you must be able to prove them.
I don't like a 3 class system just because I think it waters down the competitive nature of Basketball in the state of North Dakota.
I see there being 2 options
A: reinstitute something similar to the old "North Star" region in class A and have it consist of the parochial schools and the current low number A's. ( don't give me the travel concerns line, Devils Lake GBB traveled to Fargo this year on a Thursday, Saturday, Tuesday. If that is kosher with everyone then traveling from Devils Lake to DT on a Saturday should be just fine.)
B: Quit pandering to the parochial schools and enforce some rules and put some bite into enforcement of NDHSAA rules that are already on the books.
Just my opinions.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:13 pm

Waters down?

This is a term that is camouflage for "keeps Grafton and Beulah and Watford winning".

Nothing gets watered down that isn't different already. There isn't a team this season at the B level that could compete with the teams at the state A tournament.

Three divisions improves regular season play by moving the heavy hitters in B into their own league so they can play each other every night.

Watered down? Take a look around, buddy. The game isn't good enough to protect.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Sticks11 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:04 pm

heimer wrote:Waters down?

This is a term that is camouflage for "keeps Grafton and Beulah and Watford winning".

Nothing gets watered down that isn't different already. There isn't a team this season at the B level that could compete with the teams at the state A tournament.

Three divisions improves regular season play by moving the heavy hitters in B into their own league so they can play each other every night.

Watered down? Take a look around, buddy. The game isn't good enough to protect.


So basically everything you're trying to accomplish from all this is to keep Grafton and Beulah and Watford from winning?
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby noles4ever » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:14 pm

Gosh Heimer,
At times in this conversation I have actually thought that you came close to an intriguing argument and were coming down off your soapbox and being somewhat constructive, but after reading a few more of your VERY REACTIONARY comments i think that you have now confirmed in my mind that you are only going to be happy when Watford City, Beulah, and Grafton are sent to Basketball purgatory and Valley City is awarded the Honorary "Every Year Championship of All Classes".

In my above post I forgot option C:
WORK HARD, GET BETTER, and CHALLENGE yourself to be better than the competition.

noles4ever out!
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm

noles4ever wrote:
In my above post I forgot option C:
WORK HARD, GET BETTER, and CHALLENGE yourself to be better than the competition.

noles4ever out!


Since more classes waters down basketball, I suggest we go back to one class. When Beulah and Grafton bi--h and complain they can't beat Bismarck and Davies, please use the above comment.

Sticks11 wrote:
So basically everything you're trying to accomplish from all this is to keep Grafton and Beulah and Watford from winning?


Are you saying Grafton and Watford and Beulah can't beat Minot Ryan, Trinity, Valley City, Shiloh, Oak Grove and a handful of other teams?

Funny, because all three own state titles in AA football since the advent of four classes. Weird.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby EHS1998 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:54 pm

woodchuck10 wrote:Im just saying that schools not near Bismarck, Fargo, Grand Forks, Minot benefit from transfers as well.

Quite true. South Border had a transfer from Jamestown that helped them significantly this year.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Sticks11 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:53 am

heimer wrote:
noles4ever wrote:
In my above post I forgot option C:
WORK HARD, GET BETTER, and CHALLENGE yourself to be better than the competition.

noles4ever out!


Since more classes waters down basketball, I suggest we go back to one class. When Beulah and Grafton bi--h and complain they can't beat Bismarck and Davies, please use the above comment.

Sticks11 wrote:
So basically everything you're trying to accomplish from all this is to keep Grafton and Beulah and Watford from winning?


Are you saying Grafton and Watford and Beulah can't beat Minot Ryan, Trinity, Valley City, Shiloh, Oak Grove and a handful of other teams?

Funny, because all three own state titles in AA football since the advent of four classes. Weird.


Actually, no. I didn't elude to that at all. They definitely could. Now I see your point though, it's okay if they get some wins, as long as it's against one of those teams that don't belong in Class B according to you. Ryan shouldn't be able to win a game against Rugby or DLB though.

Also, I thought we were talking about basketball. Weird.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby heimer » Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:38 am

If you can win in football, where you need a ton more depth, you can win in basketball.

Minot Ryan shouldn't be B, so they should play other teams that shouldn't be B. I know, that class system is hard to understand sometimes. I'll slow down a bit.

Different

Classes

Mean

You

Play

Teams

Like

You.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Twins2016 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:24 am

The hilarity of this thread forced me to comment. Thanks for the entertainment!

What’s the goal that’s trying to be accomplished? Make sure that there is complete parity in Class B basketball? A common theme on this thread is that private schools disrupt that parity by being frequent visitors to the State Tournament….okay, that makes sense but how do you fix it? Some comments are that they should move up a class regardless. Explain this to me if that’s your opinion. Oak Grove & Shanley are now in the same class and Oak Grove gets throttled every week. I don’t understand the mindset that says someone has an advantage which is unfair so now let’s put them at a disadvantage. There will always be smaller private schools & bigger private schools….different people attend those schools for different reasons but there will always be a demand for smaller & bigger private schools and it’s ridiculous to put them in the same class just because they are private. Using that logic, we should put all public schools in the same class because they are public…again, doesn’t make sense. BTW: I’m a public school guy and the only thing I like about private schools is that while there are rivalries in our region, the one thing everyone has in common is that they hate the private school.
Continuing on with the theme that if someone is at an advantage (private school, town location to a City, etc) you need to put them at a disadvantage. What do you do with towns that have generations of the same family excel in athletics so that every year a team is in the hunt for a state tournament berth & their leading scorer or key contributor shares the same last name as the 15 teams before it? Make those family split up because now Town A is at an advantage over Town B?
Advantages & disadvantages are going to happen for the rest of these kid’s lives. A governing body will never make it equal for all of them. The best thing the governing body can do is tell the kid’s to deal with it, work harder, get better and if you succeed, congrats, if you don’t you’re better for trying.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Sticks11 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:23 pm

heimer wrote:If you can win in football, where you need a ton more depth, you can win in basketball.

Minot Ryan shouldn't be B, so they should play other teams that shouldn't be B. I know, that class system is hard to understand sometimes. I'll slow down a bit.

Different

Classes

Mean

You

Play

Teams

Like

You.


What I should have done is been more clear apparently for you to understand me. Regardless what class system you think would be absolutely perfect, there will still be teams in those classes that are not "like" the other teams within the same class. It can be A, B, private or AA. One team compared to the other will have advantages and disadvantages. I guess that's just my narrow minded point of view. I'm glad you have it all figured out, though. At least there's one person that does.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby Sticks11 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:24 pm

Twins2016 wrote:The hilarity of this thread forced me to comment. Thanks for the entertainment!

What’s the goal that’s trying to be accomplished? Make sure that there is complete parity in Class B basketball? A common theme on this thread is that private schools disrupt that parity by being frequent visitors to the State Tournament….okay, that makes sense but how do you fix it? Some comments are that they should move up a class regardless. Explain this to me if that’s your opinion. Oak Grove & Shanley are now in the same class and Oak Grove gets throttled every week. I don’t understand the mindset that says someone has an advantage which is unfair so now let’s put them at a disadvantage. There will always be smaller private schools & bigger private schools….different people attend those schools for different reasons but there will always be a demand for smaller & bigger private schools and it’s ridiculous to put them in the same class just because they are private. Using that logic, we should put all public schools in the same class because they are public…again, doesn’t make sense. BTW: I’m a public school guy and the only thing I like about private schools is that while there are rivalries in our region, the one thing everyone has in common is that they hate the private school.
Continuing on with the theme that if someone is at an advantage (private school, town location to a City, etc) you need to put them at a disadvantage. What do you do with towns that have generations of the same family excel in athletics so that every year a team is in the hunt for a state tournament berth & their leading scorer or key contributor shares the same last name as the 15 teams before it? Make those family split up because now Town A is at an advantage over Town B?
Advantages & disadvantages are going to happen for the rest of these kid’s lives. A governing body will never make it equal for all of them. The best thing the governing body can do is tell the kid’s to deal with it, work harder, get better and if you succeed, congrats, if you don’t you’re better for trying.


On point.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby heimer » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:37 pm

If you believe that garbage, then let's go one class. Can't have equity anyway, so why try? That's your message.

Pathetic. Cop out defense of the status quo. I'll wait for your one-class proposal.
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Re: Great Class B Towns

Postby scoobyx2 » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:47 pm

Sticks11 wrote:
Twins2016 wrote:The hilarity of this thread forced me to comment. Thanks for the entertainment!

What’s the goal that’s trying to be accomplished? Make sure that there is complete parity in Class B basketball? A common theme on this thread is that private schools disrupt that parity by being frequent visitors to the State Tournament….okay, that makes sense but how do you fix it? Some comments are that they should move up a class regardless. Explain this to me if that’s your opinion. Oak Grove & Shanley are now in the same class and Oak Grove gets throttled every week. I don’t understand the mindset that says someone has an advantage which is unfair so now let’s put them at a disadvantage. There will always be smaller private schools & bigger private schools….different people attend those schools for different reasons but there will always be a demand for smaller & bigger private schools and it’s ridiculous to put them in the same class just because they are private. Using that logic, we should put all public schools in the same class because they are public…again, doesn’t make sense. BTW: I’m a public school guy and the only thing I like about private schools is that while there are rivalries in our region, the one thing everyone has in common is that they hate the private school.
Continuing on with the theme that if someone is at an advantage (private school, town location to a City, etc) you need to put them at a disadvantage. What do you do with towns that have generations of the same family excel in athletics so that every year a team is in the hunt for a state tournament berth & their leading scorer or key contributor shares the same last name as the 15 teams before it? Make those family split up because now Town A is at an advantage over Town B?
Advantages & disadvantages are going to happen for the rest of these kid’s lives. A governing body will never make it equal for all of them. The best thing the governing body can do is tell the kid’s to deal with it, work harder, get better and if you succeed, congrats, if you don’t you’re better for trying.


On point.

I believe this was the argument used in Indiana to justify the 1 class system. When the movie Hoosiers came out people kept dreaming that the serious underdogs would rise on top over the huge metro teams.
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