Traveling Calls

Class B Boys
Forum rules
Please do not post just to complain about players, coaches, teams, officials, fans, or anyone else. Lets all try to demonstrate the spirit of good sportsmanship. Posts may be edited or deleted that do not comply.

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby Flip » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:03 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:Question...is the step through a travel now-a-days because EVERYONE calls for it on that move.

Your pivot foot can leave the floor as long as it doesn't return to the floor. This is in all cases not just step throughs.
Flip
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 5062
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby winner-within » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:11 pm

This happens in Girls more but quite often in boys also

but first on the Euro....2 friends of mine have been reffing for 30 years plus (each)
neither one would know what a Euro or a jump step is and call most of them for travel.... :)

now back to top....player fakes the three takes off to the hole (right or left) whistle blows....travel!
which is a turn over....this happens a lot! and I believe some are and some aren't but its a call that can happen at a crucial time in a game.....you almost have remind your player "don't fake the three and take off"
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4948
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby d_fense » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:38 pm

Winner, your friends should not be officiating.
d_fense
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:13 am
Location: Small town eastern ND

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby B-oldtimer » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:28 pm

The game has changed a lot now from my days the step through and spin moves in my day would have been travels if not they would have called it caring the ball. Also the way a lot of kids dribble the ball today would have been caring the ball back in my day it may have not been technically what book said but it was way it was called. That is why today we see more flashy style of play than we did in 70's but also then we were not let to play like they do inside like they today players were not allowed to body up like they are now. The game was more of finesse game of players had to be quick and deny areas where players wanted to go their by beating them to the spot. I can't prove this and may be way I want to remember the game but on average we had smaller quicker players playing the game not physical game we have now. Also some of this too is that kids are bigger today than when I was in school. The thing I remember a lot of teams had guard that was from 5' 6 to 5' 10 and they were the leading scorer for the team because if they were quick and like I said you weren't allowed to hand check or body up on them and if big man even touched them on the drive it was shooting foul they could dominate a game or make team play very tight in the paint. This left outside game where if you were good shooter could score or a big man that could catch and turn and shoot over people you could score. The game was more based on quickness and shooting ability with player between you and the basket. The way it played now I would bet most players today would be fouled out by the half if not sooner. I am not saying it was better it just was different game and I think it allowed for smaller players to be much more of factor and to be able to play the game. Today we don't see many of smaller players like back in our day where team maybe had only one 6 foot kid on the team and rest were less than 6 feet tall. Now today we see most teams with above 6 foot kids or number teams where if your under 6 feet but very physical weighing from 180 to 200+ and very strong.
B-oldtimer
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:14 pm

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby ndlionsfan » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:37 pm

winner-within wrote:now back to top....player fakes the three takes off to the hole (right or left) whistle blows....travel!
which is a turn over....this happens a lot! and I believe some are and some aren't but its a call that can happen at a crucial time in a game.....you almost have remind your player "don't fake the three and take off"


It doesn't really have anything to do with the fake, its if the player dribbles before the pivot foot leaves the floor. Some players get their feet moving before the dribble and it's a travel.
"There is only one thing in which a person can start at the top - digging a hole"
User avatar
ndlionsfan
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4088
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:36 am
Location: Central ND

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby sportsfan25 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:00 pm

d_fense wrote:balla45, you are 100% correct. That is what drives me nuts. Sportsfan25, along with many don't know what they are talking about regarding rules. Without even looking at the clip, just going off what Sportsfan25 wrote, it clearly isn't a travel. Yet he thinks what he describes is 3 steps. No, it isn't! Think of it this way. Picking up the ball with one foot down and the other in the air. Are you allowed to put the foot you have in the air down? Of coarse you are. May you use that foot you just put down as a pivot? Yes! Can you pivot on your pivot foot? YES! After pivoting, may you jump off you non pivoting foot? YES!!!

If it looks "different", something isn't correct and it must be a violation. Everyone has been to a game and there is a ref that doesn't think it is allowed to fake a shot or pass and then drive. No question there are times when a player will take a false step back with their push off foot, and that is a travel, but very often if you look at the play on film, there was never a violation. I would love to rant on about this, but what's the point?


I was going to leave this alone, but being told I don't know what I'm talking about bothers me. According to the rulebook (granted the 2014-2015 version, but I doubt it's changed), Rule 4, Section 44: (And I only took the parts that apply to the video)

"Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: ...

Art. 2... A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:...
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot ban be a pivot in this case.

Art. 3... After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for a goal."

So, in the case of the Harden video, he picks up his dribble with his right foot on the ground and left foot in the air and then takes a step with his left; thus, by article 2, Harden's right foot is his pivot foot. Now, he can step to his left and take off and take a shot, but he CANNOT step back to his right. You are correct that you can step and shoot from your non-pivot foot (Article 3), but according to the NFHS rulebook, the foot that was on the ground when he picked up the ball is the pivot foot.

It's the same rule that makes high school kids get called for a travel when their back foot slips when they try to stop their dribble on the perimeter instead of coming to a jump stop. Otherwise that back foot dragging wouldn't matter because their other foot could be considered the pivot foot.

I appreciate people's opinions, but please don't insult me and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
sportsfan25
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:02 pm

In the NBA what Harden did isn't a travel because I believe the NBA actually added an extra step to clear up some confusion. In my opinion, if a kid playing by NFHS rules did the same move that Harden did I would think it should be called a travel.
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby sportsfan25 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:08 pm

Agree with you Schwab.
sportsfan25
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:51 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
winner-within wrote:now back to top....player fakes the three takes off to the hole (right or left) whistle blows....travel!
which is a turn over....this happens a lot! and I believe some are and some aren't but its a call that can happen at a crucial time in a game.....you almost have remind your player "don't fake the three and take off"


It doesn't really have anything to do with the fake, its if the player dribbles before the pivot foot leaves the floor. Some players get their feet moving before the dribble and it's a travel.


it actually does....because thats when I always see it happen....
it doesn't happen when player 1 passes to player 2, player 2 catches it, takes a look around and takes off dribbling....it correlates with the faked shot, which is a three step process... fake, put ball on floor, lift pivot and go....but the problem is if you are in a shooting stance both feet are grounded, both being essentially the pivot until player decides which direction he will bolt.....and I believe this is where the official can get a false impression of travel....dont get me wrong! some are obvious and are definitely travel.....but some are not.....I believe there is a perception per say that this is a difficult feat, like a Euro, or a jump step....and that player has to stick closer to fundamentals.....in other words, officials for the most part played ball and were coached by somebody or maybe even coached themselves and some coaches were/are more fundamentalist then others...
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4948
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby COUGARS » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:57 pm

Should this have been called a travel or a game winner? Great shot, but how would you like to be on the other end of this one...........?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhyZEG4 ... e=youtu.be
COUGARS
NDPreps Rookie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:57 am

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby packers21 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:00 pm

COUGARS wrote:Should this have been called a travel or a game winner? Great shot, but how would you like to be on the other end of this one...........?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhyZEG4 ... e=youtu.be


If your not gunna give them the TO, there's no way in the world u can them for a travel.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
packers21
NDPreps Hall of Fame
 
Posts: 1438
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:55 am

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:21 am

winner-within wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
winner-within wrote:now back to top....player fakes the three takes off to the hole (right or left) whistle blows....travel!
which is a turn over....this happens a lot! and I believe some are and some aren't but its a call that can happen at a crucial time in a game.....you almost have remind your player "don't fake the three and take off"


It doesn't really have anything to do with the fake, its if the player dribbles before the pivot foot leaves the floor. Some players get their feet moving before the dribble and it's a travel.


it actually does....because thats when I always see it happen....
it doesn't happen when player 1 passes to player 2, player 2 catches it, takes a look around and takes off dribbling....it correlates with the faked shot, which is a three step process... fake, put ball on floor, lift pivot and go....but the problem is if you are in a shooting stance both feet are grounded, both being essentially the pivot until player decides which direction he will bolt.....and I believe this is where the official can get a false impression of travel....dont get me wrong! some are obvious and are definitely travel.....but some are not.....I believe there is a perception per say that this is a difficult feat, like a Euro, or a jump step....and that player has to stick closer to fundamentals.....in other words, officials for the most part played ball and were coached by somebody or maybe even coached themselves and some coaches were/are more fundamentalist then others...


It does happen just as often with the first instance I underlined. Players just get quick feet. With the second instance, it depends on how the player comes set when receiving the pass. If the player has good fundamentals and uses a jump stop to catch the pass with both feet hitting the floor at the same time, then yes, they have a choice of either foot as the pivot. A lot of times this doesn't happen and the player catches the ball with one foot on the floor, making that his pivot. Then tries to gather themselves to set up for the shot, the fake, or the drive, and ends up switching pivots and is called for a travel.
"There is only one thing in which a person can start at the top - digging a hole"
User avatar
ndlionsfan
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4088
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:36 am
Location: Central ND

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby winner-within » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:46 am

ndlionsfan wrote:
winner-within wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
winner-within wrote:now back to top....player fakes the three takes off to the hole (right or left) whistle blows....travel!
which is a turn over....this happens a lot! and I believe some are and some aren't but its a call that can happen at a crucial time in a game.....you almost have remind your player "don't fake the three and take off"


It doesn't really have anything to do with the fake, its if the player dribbles before the pivot foot leaves the floor. Some players get their feet moving before the dribble and it's a travel.


it actually does....because thats when I always see it happen....
it doesn't happen when player 1 passes to player 2, player 2 catches it, takes a look around and takes off dribbling....it correlates with the faked shot, which is a three step process... fake, put ball on floor, lift pivot and go....but the problem is if you are in a shooting stance both feet are grounded, both being essentially the pivot until player decides which direction he will bolt.....and I believe this is where the official can get a false impression of travel....dont get me wrong! some are obvious and are definitely travel.....but some are not.....I believe there is a perception per say that this is a difficult feat, like a Euro, or a jump step....and that player has to stick closer to fundamentals.....in other words, officials for the most part played ball and were coached by somebody or maybe even coached themselves and some coaches were/are more fundamentalist then others...


It does happen just as often with the first instance I underlined. Players just get quick feet. With the second instance, it depends on how the player comes set when receiving the pass. If the player has good fundamentals and uses a jump stop to catch the pass with both feet hitting the floor at the same time, then yes, they have a choice of either foot as the pivot. A lot of times this doesn't happen and the player catches the ball with one foot on the floor making that his pivot. Then tries to gather themselves to set up for the shot, the fake, or the drive, and ends up switching pivots and is called for a travel.


I would have to disagree with blue....I've seen way more travel calls with the fake, more than 2 times as many over the years....especially with the offences revolving around the perimeter (3-point line) much more in the last 10 years......

I dont see many players catch a ball with only one foot on the floor unless its a break
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4948
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby d_fense » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:21 pm

sportsfan25 wrote:
d_fense wrote:balla45, you are 100% correct. That is what drives me nuts. Sportsfan25, along with many don't know what they are talking about regarding rules. Without even looking at the clip, just going off what Sportsfan25 wrote, it clearly isn't a travel. Yet he thinks what he describes is 3 steps. No, it isn't! Think of it this way. Picking up the ball with one foot down and the other in the air. Are you allowed to put the foot you have in the air down? Of coarse you are. May you use that foot you just put down as a pivot? Yes! Can you pivot on your pivot foot? YES! After pivoting, may you jump off you non pivoting foot? YES!!!

If it looks "different", something isn't correct and it must be a violation. Everyone has been to a game and there is a ref that doesn't think it is allowed to fake a shot or pass and then drive. No question there are times when a player will take a false step back with their push off foot, and that is a travel, but very often if you look at the play on film, there was never a violation. I would love to rant on about this, but what's the point?


I was going to leave this alone, but being told I don't know what I'm talking about bothers me. According to the rulebook (granted the 2014-2015 version, but I doubt it's changed), Rule 4, Section 44: (And I only took the parts that apply to the video)

"Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: ...

Art. 2... A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:...
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot ban be a pivot in this case.

Art. 3... After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for a goal."

So, in the case of the Harden video, he picks up his dribble with his right foot on the ground and left foot in the air and then takes a step with his left; thus, by article 2, Harden's right foot is his pivot foot. Now, he can step to his left and take off and take a shot, but he CANNOT step back to his right. You are correct that you can step and shoot from your non-pivot foot (Article 3), but according to the NFHS rulebook, the foot that was on the ground when he picked up the ball is the pivot foot.

It's the same rule that makes high school kids get called for a travel when their back foot slips when they try to stop their dribble on the perimeter instead of coming to a jump stop. Otherwise that back foot dragging wouldn't matter because their other foot could be considered the pivot foot.

I appreciate people's opinions, but please don't insult me and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.


Thank you for replying. This site needs dialog. But, you are still incorrect. Look at what you site from article 2. It refers to "stopping and establishing a pivot foot". It doesn't matter if you are talking about a euro step or a traditional layup that no one would say is a travel. If you suddenly stop before elevating to shoot the layup, and just stand there on your one foot, it is a travel. I did take a second to look at the video above before replying to your response. It was just like I thought it would be. And it is not a travel. It would be if he were coming to a stop and not shooting. But, he wasn't and he did.

Article 3 also does not apply to the video. But, it is relevant to the "step through" talked about earlier, and explains why it is not a travel.

One thing that I would like to know is what is the definition of "any direction in excess of prescribed limits" when referring to traveling.
d_fense
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:13 am
Location: Small town eastern ND

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby The Schwab » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:56 pm

The way I interpret Article 3, it would apply to the video, because he stopped his dribble and therefore established a pivot foot. Maybe I interpret it incorrectly, but that's the way I see it.
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby sportsfan25 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:21 pm

Again, Schwab and I are in agreement. The "stop" mentioned in article 2 refers to stopping a dribble, not stopping moving.

In terms of the "prescribed limits", that's what the articles are about. Articles 1, 2, and 3 lay out what are the limits of movement while holding the basketball and not dribbling.
sportsfan25
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby Hinsa » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:35 pm

d_fense wrote:balla45, you are 100% correct. That is what drives me nuts. Sportsfan25, along with many don't know what they are talking about regarding rules. Without even looking at the clip, just going off what Sportsfan25 wrote, it clearly isn't a travel. Yet he thinks what he describes is 3 steps. No, it isn't! Think of it this way. Picking up the ball with one foot down and the other in the air. Are you allowed to put the foot you have in the air down? Of coarse you are. May you use that foot you just put down as a pivot? Yes! Can you pivot on your pivot foot? YES! After pivoting, may you jump off you non pivoting foot? YES!!!

If it looks "different", something isn't correct and it must be a violation. Everyone has been to a game and there is a ref that doesn't think it is allowed to fake a shot or pass and then drive. No question there are times when a player will take a false step back with their push off foot, and that is a travel, but very often if you look at the play on film, there was never a violation. I would love to rant on about this, but what's the point?

I'm going to disagree on this one.

The rule states that you may lift your pivot foot to pass or shoot the ball. You must get rid of the ball before the pivot foot comes back to the floor.

In the Harden video, he picks up the ball with his right foot on the floor, thus establishing his pivot foot. He then lifts his right foot as he puts his left foot to the floor and subsequently lifts it. At this point he must either pass or shoot. He cannot bring his right foot back to the floor while still in control of the ball. That is a travel.

Just to establish my credibility on this subject, I refereed for many years. I continue to take the rules test every year as a coach. I have numerous friends that are officials and we've talked about this very thing. We have read the rule as it is stated in the book, and in Harden's case, he would be travelling.

Balla45 says the sequence of steps sounds a lot like a regular layup. The fatal flaw in his logic is that the right foot is still in contact with the floor when Harden picks up the ball. If he had gotten his right foot off the floor before he picked up the ball, he is fine. But look closely at the slow-motion replay - he picks up the ball very quickly and his right foot is still on the floor.

Travel would be the correct call. However, it would never be called in the NBA.

Sorry, I came a little late to this discussion.
Twins and Vikings Forever!
User avatar
Hinsa
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 2028
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:53 am
Location: THE Red River Valley Conference

Re: Traveling Calls

Postby winner-within » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:58 pm

He definitely travels....that is not a true Euro.... thats a Hardin Euro on that particular play...I have seen him do it right....Westbrook does it better and doesn't travel usually (may not always go in either)...I have seen a handful of young kids do it right also....the euro has to be mastered as well as the jump step..

back to the basic topic....theres a lot of incidental walking going on that some refs live with and some dont
just the nature of the beast.....is there more than 30 years ago? IMO yes 20 yrs ago? IMO yes 10 years ago?
maybe.. but thats when I believe that with the motion offences and the perimeter play, with more of a 12345 mentality then that of, 2 gaurds, 2 forwards and a center that more dribbling is going on than ever before right now....I will say that dribbling doesn't win games or lets say make your team better either....and by that I mean dribbling around for nothing (hence the 5 sec call)
I do know great handles, good moves can be effective but they have to be executed right...
and I believe not all refs have seen that
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4948
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Previous

Return to Boys

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests