Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Indy5 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:01 pm

winner-within wrote:why would a St. Marys beat a Shiloh? or lets say a Shanley beat an Oak Grove?...because of a few more students?....Let say the older Kretchman played for Shanley instead of Davies the year his younger Brother played with Grove...does that make Shanley more of a force?...of course.... and thats just one player, If your in a situation as a School in a big city where there might just be a Stud or two standing on the front step Monday morning, well than your in a unique situation that many Class b's are not...and to say nearly every school has had a transfer in the last 2 decades....I would say many many havent


This point really isn't very relevant. It doesn't matter if those kids are right down the street or across the state. If they're not in your school, you don't have them on your team.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby T reporter » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:56 pm

Indy5 wrote:
uspsrt wrote:
baloncesto wrote:Since when does being from a private school automatically make you a better player or a better team? Some people act like that this is an automatic advantage over everyone else and they discredit the hard work the kids put in. I understand they have a better opportunity to bring in transfers because of big schools being in the same town but at the end of the day its still 9-12 graders against 9-12 graders and its still schools with similar enrollment numbers playing against each other.


You just answered your own question. Privates are not restricted by district boundaries and have an opportunity to accept transfers from anywhere. Of course other schools get transfers from time to time too, but not to the extent that privates do. I guess I just accept this as it is, but do not try to say that it is not an advantage to have unlimited access to talent. More good players have an advantage over less good players every time. Somewhere on this forum there is a post that documents how other states handle this situation. You should read it. A lot of them apply some type of multiplier to the privates to try to even the playing field by having them move up in class despite having a lower enrollment. In others states they simply do not compete against each other. I think there are 8 privates in North Dakota now and it might be useful to take a look at getting them all into class A or at least apply a multiplier. I think another advantage they have over rural publics is in retaining a quality coaching staff. If you are a young, talented coach fresh out of college seeking a basketball coaching position would you rather coach in a city where there is entertainment and restaurants or in a community that has much less to offer.

Their advantage has not one thing to do with with getting transfers from across town. Those kids would still have to sit out the 180 days just like if they went from one public to another. Shiloh has been the only private to be getting any amount of transfers really, and theirs aren't coming from Bismarck schools.

I'll give you the coaches point. Naturally, most people would rather live in, say, Bismarck than live in or commute daily to Steele.


Please set me straight if you transfer to a private school you are required to sit out 180 days in order to play varsity games, right?

If I move from public school district A to public school district Z for my job my kid can play today is this right? If so than the public schools are the ones with the advantage. I am not sticking up for the privates.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Indy5 » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:12 pm

T reporter wrote:
Please set me straight if you transfer to a private school you are required to sit out 180 days in order to play varsity games, right?

If I move from public school district A to public school district Z for my job my kid can play today is this right? If so than the public schools are the ones with the advantage. I am not sticking up for the privates.

If a kid moves from Steele to Bismarck and wants to go play for St. Marys, he could do that right away as long as the family moves to Bismarck. Now, say a kid at Bismarck High isn't satisfied with his situation and wants to go play for St. Marys, he would have to sit out 180 days. Therefore, they follow the exact same rules as public schools.

To answer your question, yes. If a family moved from Steele to the Bismarck High school district, they could play right away.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby HammerTime » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:39 pm

But only if the FAMILY moves. If they are in a situation where they go to school at GF Red River and they want to transfer to Central, then they sit out the 180 days, I believe. Transferring public schools within the same district or to another if the family doesn't move warrants the 180 days rule. And this is where the advantages for BCPs come in. If a student doesn't like his situation at the large public school, he could transfer at the end of the season to the private school, and start playing next season for them. The selection for BCP in terms of players is much wider than a town like Rugby or Sawyer.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby ndlionsfan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:50 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the transfer rule is 180 school days. Basically a whole school year of ineligibility. If someone transfers in April after the season without the family moving, they are ineligible until the next April.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:16 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the transfer rule is 180 school days. Basically a whole school year of ineligibility. If someone transfers in April after the season without the family moving, they are ineligible until the next April.


180 school days = 1 school year. You are correct ndlionsfan.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby The Schwab » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:58 pm

As many of you know, there are ways around the NDHSAA transfer rules...
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:04 pm

The Schwab wrote:As many of you know, there are ways around the NDHSAA transfer rules...


There are ways around any State's transfer rules...MN has quite the situation on their hands after this season.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Baller » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:19 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
The Schwab wrote:As many of you know, there are ways around the NDHSAA transfer rules...


There are ways around any State's transfer rules...MN has quite the situation on their hands after this season.



Do tell....I haven't heard much but love to hear the juicy details.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:27 pm

Baller wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
The Schwab wrote:As many of you know, there are ways around the NDHSAA transfer rules...


There are ways around any State's transfer rules...MN has quite the situation on their hands after this season.



Do tell....I haven't heard much but love to hear the juicy details.


2 brothers started the year playing for St. Cloud Tech...by mid-season they moved to Perham (lake house there...changed residence to that house). They finished the season in Perham and have now moved back to St. Cloud (going to Cathedral now)...and are back in their original residence. They've been eligible everywhere they've gone. So that was 3 schools in 3 months...I have a feeling a change is upcoming in MN.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby winner-within » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:42 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the transfer rule is 180 school days. Basically a whole school year of ineligibility. If someone transfers in April after the season without the family moving, they are ineligible until the next April.


180 school days = 1 school year. You are correct ndlionsfan.


so how many Transfers have taken place (which I'm not for or against...folks have there reasons and prerogatives) vs how many 180 school day sit outs?
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby The Schwab » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:44 pm

winner-within wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the transfer rule is 180 school days. Basically a whole school year of ineligibility. If someone transfers in April after the season without the family moving, they are ineligible until the next April.


180 school days = 1 school year. You are correct ndlionsfan.


so how many Transfers have taken place (which I'm not for or against...folks have there reasons and prerogatives) vs how many 180 school day sit outs?


I would say the transfers outweigh the sit outs at least 3-1
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:54 pm

I agree, and the ways some transfers get around the rules is absolutely ridiculous
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby winner-within » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:32 pm

Yes, how times have changed
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Sportsrube » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:10 am

ndlionsfan wrote:I agree, and the ways some transfers get around the rules is absolutely ridiculous



I agree, and the problems are with the NDHSAA (when was the last time anyone got into any kind of trouble for violating transfer rules?) and the parents who will bend the rules as much as possible to get what they feel they and their prodigy deserve. I think you could fix the problems on the NDHSAA end but I don't know if you can fix the problems on the parenting side.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:54 pm

Here is a great article on the transfer rules. Couldn't find who wrote it, so to give credit pasted the link below.

http://highschoolsportsstuff.areavoices ... sfer-rule/

The Transfer Rule
Posted on August 19, 2014
While many schools in North Dakota are starting this week, Grand Forks Public Schools is still two weeks away from our opening date. This month before the start of school is the time of year that I receive the most phone calls with questions regarding the North Dakota High School Activities Association (NDHSAA) transfer rule. Before I get too deep into explanation and opinion, I’ll briefly summarize the rule using just main points.

* Students can select their high school of attendance as a freshman (subject to local enrollment rules, of course).
* Once a student walks through the doors for Day 1 as a freshman, that high school is his/her “school of choice.”
* Changing high schools without a corresponding change in parental residence results in the student being ineligible for varsity competition for 180 school days (essentially one calendar year.)

Through my conversations with parents, several common misconceptions surface. Some of them are as follows:

* There is no such thing as dual residency. If you own two houses in different districts, any move from the “Freshman” district to the other district results in a 180 school day violation.
* Simply changing the custodial status of the student does not make the kid eligible in a new school. I’ve had multiple questions regarding a parent who wishes to establish an aunt/uncle or brother/sister as the legal guardian of a student in order to change schools and still be eligible. The NDHSAA is very clear that any time the custody of a student is changed as the result of a choice by the parent or child, the student is still subject to the transfer rule.
* If a student has transferred out of their home district, he/she is NOT allowed a free transfer back to the home district, even if he/she served a 180 day penalty already. Basically, every transfer after starting the freshman school year is treated the same.
* Separation, divorce, or unmarried shared custody of a student does NOT give a student free transfer back and forth between schools.
* Even if a student didn’t participate in school based programs at the previous school, the transfer rule applies to participation at the “new” school.
* The NDHSAA does have a hardship request process that could potentially allow the transfer rule to be waived, but this is only applied in extreme circumstances. In my 9th year as an AD, I’ve had roughly a dozen conversations with parents who wished to pursue a hardship. Of those, I’ve only filed 2 hardship requests; and of those two, I only thought one would/should/could be approved. Hardships aren’t common.
* A transfer between any school – public, private, or parochial – is still a transfer.
* Even if the parents move, the kid is allowed to stay in his/her current school without penalty. If the student subsequently decides to rejoin his/her parents, he may or may not be subject to the transfer rule depending on some other circumstances.

Regarding enforcement specifically in Grand Forks:
We allow open enrollment between our two high schools, but those changes in attendance are still subject to the transfer rule.
Home school students who live in the Grand Forks attendance area – and therefore file an Intent to Educate with GFPS – compete with the high school in which attendance area the family lives.

There are a multitude of various questions and possibilities that the NDHSAA addresses in their Constitution and By-Laws that can be found here. The short, basic version of the rule is that your family needs to move “lock, stock, and barrel” in order to be immediately eligible in your new district.

For whatever reason, I’ve had several parents and coaches ask me this year why the NDHSAA has a rule that forces kids to stay out of North Dakota schools. The truth is actually the exact opposite: this rule is designed to keep kids with their families, at home, in their home town schools. The main problem I face with this comment is that parents call me to ask what the rule is after their son/daughter has already attended a different school and wishes to come home. (Related – the majority (maybe all?) of students in my tenure don’t enjoy their time away from home – a fact that I pass along to every parent who asks.)

I’ve heard several different reasons from parents and kids regarding their desire to leave home for a year, but the most common has something to do with chasing a college scholarship. To all of these comments, I offer three responses:
1. Roughly, only 6.5% of high school athletes play college sports. Less than 3% of high school athletes receive a college scholarship at any level: JUCO, D1, D2, or NAIA. (This will be the subject of next week’s blog!)
2. A kid’s ability to play college sports was largely decided at conception. It’s an unfortunate fact, but still a fact. The vast majority of people are born without the athletic tools necessary to compete at the college level. The rest are weeded out by the necessary work ethic. I really badly wanted to play football and basketball at Notre Dame, but 6’1″ 175lb high school seniors who run a 5.0 40 don’t get that opportunity.
3. College coaches are paid to find exceptional athletes, and they look everywhere for them. You don’t need to move anywhere for college coaches to find you. If a kid is worth finding, he/she will be found.

My takeaway – the system is designed for your kid to stay at home, with family, with friends, competing for the community in which he/she grew up, and enjoying his/her time as a kid. It’s unfortunate that we live in a time requiring rules like this, but the perceived need to compete at the highest level is threatening our ability to offer quality educational based athletic programs.

As always, I welcome questions, comments, thoughts, or suggestions for future posts!

- See more at: http://highschoolsportsstuff.areavoices ... VbXlh.dpuf
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:23 pm

classB4ever wrote:My takeaway – the system is designed for your kid to stay at home, with family, with friends, competing for the community in which he/she grew up, and enjoying his/her time as a kid. It’s unfortunate that we live in a time requiring rules like this, but the perceived need to compete at the highest level is threatening our ability to offer quality educational based athletic programs.


Hit the nail on the head with this one. I believe this blog is written by Mark Rerick, AD at the GF schools and previous fball coach at Hillsboro.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby The Schwab » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:39 pm

classB4ever wrote:Here is a great article on the transfer rules. Couldn't find who wrote it, so to give credit pasted the link below.

http://highschoolsportsstuff.areavoices ... sfer-rule/

The Transfer Rule
Posted on August 19, 2014
While many schools in North Dakota are starting this week, Grand Forks Public Schools is still two weeks away from our opening date. This month before the start of school is the time of year that I receive the most phone calls with questions regarding the North Dakota High School Activities Association (NDHSAA) transfer rule. Before I get too deep into explanation and opinion, I’ll briefly summarize the rule using just main points.

* Students can select their high school of attendance as a freshman (subject to local enrollment rules, of course).
* Once a student walks through the doors for Day 1 as a freshman, that high school is his/her “school of choice.”
* Changing high schools without a corresponding change in parental residence results in the student being ineligible for varsity competition for 180 school days (essentially one calendar year.)

Through my conversations with parents, several common misconceptions surface. Some of them are as follows:

* There is no such thing as dual residency. If you own two houses in different districts, any move from the “Freshman” district to the other district results in a 180 school day violation.
* Simply changing the custodial status of the student does not make the kid eligible in a new school. I’ve had multiple questions regarding a parent who wishes to establish an aunt/uncle or brother/sister as the legal guardian of a student in order to change schools and still be eligible. The NDHSAA is very clear that any time the custody of a student is changed as the result of a choice by the parent or child, the student is still subject to the transfer rule.
* If a student has transferred out of their home district, he/she is NOT allowed a free transfer back to the home district, even if he/she served a 180 day penalty already. Basically, every transfer after starting the freshman school year is treated the same.
* Separation, divorce, or unmarried shared custody of a student does NOT give a student free transfer back and forth between schools.
* Even if a student didn’t participate in school based programs at the previous school, the transfer rule applies to participation at the “new” school.
* The NDHSAA does have a hardship request process that could potentially allow the transfer rule to be waived, but this is only applied in extreme circumstances. In my 9th year as an AD, I’ve had roughly a dozen conversations with parents who wished to pursue a hardship. Of those, I’ve only filed 2 hardship requests; and of those two, I only thought one would/should/could be approved. Hardships aren’t common.
* A transfer between any school – public, private, or parochial – is still a transfer.
* Even if the parents move, the kid is allowed to stay in his/her current school without penalty. If the student subsequently decides to rejoin his/her parents, he may or may not be subject to the transfer rule depending on some other circumstances.

Regarding enforcement specifically in Grand Forks:
We allow open enrollment between our two high schools, but those changes in attendance are still subject to the transfer rule.
Home school students who live in the Grand Forks attendance area – and therefore file an Intent to Educate with GFPS – compete with the high school in which attendance area the family lives.

There are a multitude of various questions and possibilities that the NDHSAA addresses in their Constitution and By-Laws that can be found here. The short, basic version of the rule is that your family needs to move “lock, stock, and barrel” in order to be immediately eligible in your new district.

For whatever reason, I’ve had several parents and coaches ask me this year why the NDHSAA has a rule that forces kids to stay out of North Dakota schools. The truth is actually the exact opposite: this rule is designed to keep kids with their families, at home, in their home town schools. The main problem I face with this comment is that parents call me to ask what the rule is after their son/daughter has already attended a different school and wishes to come home. (Related – the majority (maybe all?) of students in my tenure don’t enjoy their time away from home – a fact that I pass along to every parent who asks.)

I’ve heard several different reasons from parents and kids regarding their desire to leave home for a year, but the most common has something to do with chasing a college scholarship. To all of these comments, I offer three responses:
1. Roughly, only 6.5% of high school athletes play college sports. Less than 3% of high school athletes receive a college scholarship at any level: JUCO, D1, D2, or NAIA. (This will be the subject of next week’s blog!)
2. A kid’s ability to play college sports was largely decided at conception. It’s an unfortunate fact, but still a fact. The vast majority of people are born without the athletic tools necessary to compete at the college level. The rest are weeded out by the necessary work ethic. I really badly wanted to play football and basketball at Notre Dame, but 6’1″ 175lb high school seniors who run a 5.0 40 don’t get that opportunity.
3. College coaches are paid to find exceptional athletes, and they look everywhere for them. You don’t need to move anywhere for college coaches to find you. If a kid is worth finding, he/she will be found.

My takeaway – the system is designed for your kid to stay at home, with family, with friends, competing for the community in which he/she grew up, and enjoying his/her time as a kid. It’s unfortunate that we live in a time requiring rules like this, but the perceived need to compete at the highest level is threatening our ability to offer quality educational based athletic programs.

As always, I welcome questions, comments, thoughts, or suggestions for future posts!

- See more at: http://highschoolsportsstuff.areavoices ... VbXlh.dpuf


The bold is not always the case...there are ways around that one.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:29 pm

The Schwab wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
* There is no such thing as dual residency. If you own two houses in different districts, any move from the “Freshman” district to the other district results in a 180 school day violation.


The bold is not always the case...there are ways around that one.


How so Schwab? Curious because it seems pretty straight forward.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby The Schwab » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:48 pm

I have heard of a couple cases of this, won't share the exact situations, but I know of at least 2 cases where the family owned 2 houses and the kids transferred without penalty. I believe 1 case was allowed because of the parents job demands.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Sportsrube » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:29 pm

The Schwab wrote:I have heard of a couple cases of this, won't share the exact situations, but I know of at least 2 cases where the family owned 2 houses and the kids transferred without penalty. I believe 1 case was allowed because of the parents job demands.


I know of 2 cases like this also. Just because someone is getting their mail delivered to a certain address doesn't mean they are actually living there. You would think the NDHSAA could easily check on something like this but I guess they are too busy with other more pressing matters. In one of the cases the parent sold their house to a relative who sold it back to them the week after the kid graduated, that is not the fault of the NDHSAA but the fault of parents who think their little prodigy is above the rules. If both parents are still working in town #1 which is a long, long way from home #2 it is pretty obvious.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby T reporter » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:31 am

Are these rules just for the varsity level or do they include the JV level also?
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Indy5 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:20 pm

T reporter wrote:Are these rules just for the varsity level or do they include the JV level also?

Just varsity. Ineligible players can still play JV.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:27 pm

There is a discussion going on in the Class B Poll thread concerning region 1. Have been collecting data from Class B for quite some time and have posted on this thread. Following is some more information.

Average finish at state tournament for each region for the past 21 years:

Region 4 3.33
Region 2 3.48
Region 7 3.95
Region 6 4.05
Region 5 5.04
Region 1 5.05
Region 3 5.24
Region 8 5.62

Average finish at state for past 10 years:

Region 4 2.90
Region 2 4.20
Region 6 4.30
Region 1 4.50
Region 7 4.80
Region 3 4.90
Region 8 5.10
Region 5 5.30

Average finish at state for past 5 years:

Region 4 2
Region 6 3
Region 1 3.2
Region 7 4.6
Region 5 5
Region 3 5.2
Region 2 6.2
Region 8 6.6
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Big Blue » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:38 pm

This is good stuff!!! Thanks!
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