Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:45 pm

Just one question, is there a type for DL-B? Fball plan has them at 96 boys in 7-10 so I would assume their enrollment is higher than 109.

Also, since you must have all this enrollment info at your fingertips, could you list the Class A school enrollments just for comparison?
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:46 pm

Thanks, good eye, fixed.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:03 pm

2014-15 Class A High School Enrollment by Region
Most of these come from NDHSAA, but checked with 2014-15 district enrollment numbers and seem close.

West Fargo East 1608
Fargo Davies East 1190
Grand Forks Red River East 1129
Fargo South East 1101
Grand Forks Central East 951
Fargo North East 932
West Fargo Sheyenne East 665
Devils Lake East 482
Wahpeton East 386
Valley City East 352
Fargo Shanley East 314

Minot West 2204
Bismarck Century West 1443
Bismarck High West 1403
Mandan West 1044
Williston West 1021
Dickinson West 904
Jamestown West 667
Bismarck Legacy West 534
Turtle Mountain West 511
Bismarck St. Marys West 315
Last edited by classB4ever on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby go maji » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:22 pm

classB4ever wrote:2014-15 Class A High School Enrollment by Region
Most of these come from NDHSAA, but checked with 2014-15 district enrollment numbers and seem close.

West Fargo East 1608
Fargo Davies East 1190
Grand Forks Red River East 1129
Fargo South East 1101
Grand Forks Central East 951
West Fargo Sheyenne East 665
Devils Lake East 482
Wahpeton East 386
Valley City East 352
Fargo Shanley East 314

Minot West 2204
Bismarck Century West 1443
Bismarck High West 1403
Mandan West 1044
Williston West 1021
Dickinson West 904
Jamestown West 667
Bismarck Legacy West 534
Turtle Lake West 511
Bismarck St. Marys West 315


Turtle Mountain lol
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:27 pm

go maji wrote:Turtle Mountain lol


Ha, thanks and fixed. Can you tell I watch more class b? :?
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby north1 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:33 pm

Thanks classB4ever, the class B info is very interesting. Makes me appreciate teams like New England, Parshall, Solen, Ray(especially with the tragic loss they endured) even more. With numbers 2 to 4 times less than others it is amazing they can even compete, much less make it to state. Especially when you consider the increased opportunities for other sports and extra curricular activities kids have now. Not so long ago basketball was about the only major activity many of these schools had.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:22 am

north1 wrote:Thanks classB4ever, the class B info is very interesting. Makes me appreciate teams like New England, Parshall, Solen, Ray(especially with the tragic loss they endured) even more. With numbers 2 to 4 times less than others it is amazing they can even compete, much less make it to state. Especially when you consider the increased opportunities for other sports and extra curricular activities kids have now. Not so long ago basketball was about the only major activity many of these schools had.


Thank you.

ndlionsfan wrote:
Using 150 enrollment as a cutoff for "big" Bs, 52 of the 90 (58%) of the qualifiers would fall in this category in the last 15 years. That includes region 3 which had none, and don't know if they would even have had any schools in the region over 150 enrollment in these years. That would change now with Oakes and Carrington in their region.


If you are really interested in what the percentage levels are for attending state you need to look at the real picture and that is region breakdown. Because the landscape has changed so much over the years, enrollment, districts, etc. it is very hard to do. I have tried to update my records each year for the past 20 years. Sometimes I get it right, some times I have typos, but they are relatively close.
I will give you a for instance: Since there are only 6 private/parochial schools and we have 106 teams this year, then they make up 5.6% of our basketball teams. But, since they are only located in 5 regions, you have to take that into account. The same thing goes for bigs. Some regions have more, some have less. Using this theory, I broke down regional championships for the past 20 years, using an average of 16 teams per region.
Please note:
1. Some schools changed from big (174+) to small during that time. Counted them as they were that year.
2. Some changed regions.
3. Tried to use an average for each region. Region 3 for instance, didn't have a big from 1999-2014.
4. 20 years ago, there may have been 20 teams per region where there are 13 now. So used 16 as average.

Region 1 Schools = 16
Big Schools = 3 18.75%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 12 75.00%

Region 1 Champs Over 20 Years
Big Schools = 8 40.00%
Private = 6 30.00%
Small = 6 30.00%

Region 2 Schools = 16
Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region 2 Champs Over 20 Years
Big Schools = 11 55.00%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 9 45.00%

Region 3 Schools = 16
Big Schools = 1 6.25%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 15 93.75%

Region 3 Champs Over 20 Years
Big Schools = 3 15.00%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 17 85.00%
Note: From 1999 - 2014 there were no bigs.

Region 4 Schools = 16
Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region 4 Champs Over 20 Years
Big Schools = 5 25.00%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 15 75.00%

Region 5 Schools = 16
Big Schools = 1 6.25%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region 5 Champs Over 20 Years
Big Schools = 1 5.00%
Private = 10 50.00%
Small = 9 45.00%

Region 6 Schools = 16
Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 2 12.50%
Small = 12 75.00%

Region 6 Champs Over 20 Years
Big Schools = 4 20.00%
Private = 7 35.00%
Small = 9 45.00%

Region 7 Schools = 16
Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 13 81.25%

Region 7 Champs Over 20 Years
Big Schools = 6 30.00%
Private = 10 50.00%
Small = 4 20.00%

Region 8 Schools = 16
Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 13 81.25%

Region 8 Champs Over 20 Years
Big Schools = 4 20.00%
Private = 2 10.00%
Small = 14 70.00%
Last edited by classB4ever on Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:28 am

Excellent data classb4ever. Really interesting stuff.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:25 pm

This is how teams finished at the state tourney over those 20 years. There probably are some mistakes so if you spot any, I will update. This will be the last of my posts.

State Tournament Finish over past 20 years:

1st Place
Big 9 45%
Private 4 20%
Small 7 35%

2nd Place
Big 6 30.00%
Private 4 20.00%
Small 10 50.00%

3rd Place
Big 5 25.00%
Private 6 30.00%
Small 9 45.00%

4th Place
Big 3 15.00%
Private 3 15.00%
Small 14 70.00%

5th Place
Big 5 25.00%
Private 6 30.00%
Small 9 45.00%

6th Place
Big 4 20.00%
Private 4 20.00%
Small 12 60.00%

7th Place
Big 4 20.00%
Private 5 25.00%
Small 11 55.00%

8th Place
Big 6 30.00%
Private 3 15.00%
Small 11 55.00%
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:17 am

Just throwing this out there to keep some discussion going now that the season is done. Looking at classb4ever's enrollment data, there are many different ways the state could go to a three class system. Based on the current 106 teams, here are 4 ways that it could work.

Based on enrollment....
Using 150-450 for the middle class (I chose that because its about the closest to a 3x difference between smallest and largest in each class) would give 16 teams AA, 29 teams A, 81 teams B.

Using 175-500 for the middle class would give 16 teams AA (Belcourt and DL could fall down soon, though), 21 teams in A (Little small in my opinion), and 89 in B.

Using something similar to the fball plan...
Top 16 in AA, Next 24 in A, remaining (86) in B
or
Top 16 in AA, Next 32 in A, remaining (78) in B, plans could be reevaluated every 5 years but then you have teams moving up/down all the time.

In any plan any team can opt up a division. To decrease on travel teams would not be required to play all the teams in their region. Postseason seeding could be determined by a power point system similar to SD. For instance, that would encourage good teams to play up a division for more points and get more interesting matchups across the state throughout the season. It would also be interesting to have a "Super A" format for all divisions state tournaments to keep the same three weekends in March, but not have it on two courts. Start earlier in the morning and play them all the way through alternating. Drop the 7th/8th place game at each tournament to save a few games if necessary. I rarely go to the state tournaments, but never miss a game on TV. If I could see the top 8 teams in boys/girls at one location on the same weekend I would be an attendee every year.

Like I said, not really advocating for a 3 class system per say, just throwing some ideas out there to keep some discussion going. I always have an open mind and would look at options to try something new in the state.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby justplayalready » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:09 am

I'll throw out this idea for classifications...

Take the cities with a population of 20K or higher, extend out a border of 20 miles...any school in this city and border are automatically either class AA or A(enrollment used to split them)...This addresses both the privates as well any open enrollment when you have more population where it would likely become an issue.

The rest of the schools would be classed according to enrollment, either AA, A or B. Opt up would be in play across the board

This really only addresses the advantages that are gained from being in the populated areas...you still will have the issues in both class AA and B with enrollment differences. I would think that class A would be the most competitive.

I am kinda using the MN hockey as a model...they went from one class(the best tourney in the state IMHO at that time) to a two class that now has constant problems in lower class of who should be in what class, conferences kicking out teams, recruiting and open enrollment, privates controlling their enrollment to stay classed, etc, etc, brought on by the large population area...
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:47 pm

Following is a compilation of how other states deal with class situations:

(States without a modification for private schools, no current plans to add one, or no noteworthy history with the issue are listed as NM.)

Alabama: The first state to adopt a multiplier (1999). A 1.35 multiplier is applied to all private school enrollments. The state association settled on 1.35 due to date that indicated athletic participation in private schools is 35 percent higher than at public schools.

Alaska: NM

Arizona: NM

Arkansas: Non-public schools with 80 or more students in grades 10-12 are moved up one classification. A multiplier was used in the past, leading to a court battle. The state association was sued by a school that was moved up two classifications and won three football games with a roster of 25 players. The court ruled that the multiplier was not unconstitutional.

California: NM

Colorado: Competitive balance is an ongoing debate. A private school success advancement system was voted down in 2013.

Connecticut: A 2.0 multiplier is applied to basketball only. Also, a point system based on tournament success is used to further adjust enrollment.

Delaware: NM

District of Columbia: NM

Florida: Has separation of private and public schools in select sports among small schools.

Georgia: Ended a 1.5 multiplier formula for private schools in 2008 after eight years. Data showed that the multiplier did not impact the percentage of private schools winning state titles. Separation of private and public schools in the state's small-school division was approved in 2012.

Hawaii: Each island sets rules for reaching state tournaments. Most have publics and privates compete with each other.

Idaho: NM

Illinois: A 1.65 multiplier is applied to private and non-boundaried schools in all sports. The state association was sued by 37 schools in 2005, leading to a settlement requiring that the multiplier go to a vote of member schools. It passed. A success advancement system was later added to alter division placement based on a team's recent postseason success. Schools may petition to move up a classification.

Indiana: A success advancement system is used, requiring that teams in all sports to move up a classification based on postseason performance.

Iowa: NM

Kansas: Proposals have been made to separate public and private schools, or move private schools into higher classifications.

Kentucky: NM

Louisiana: There has been talk in recent years of private schools forming their own association.

Maine: The state association is on record as opposing separation of public and private schools.

Maryland: Separate tournaments and state associations for public and private schools.

Massachusetts: NM

Texas is one state that has separate playoffs for public and private schools. The private schools play in a tournament run by the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools. Pictured is Round Rock Christian, left, against Colleyville Covenant Christian in the 2013 3A volleyball state championship game. (Photo courtesy of Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools.)
Michigan: Schools have the option to move up a division.

Minnesota: A reverse multiplier is used to reduce enrollment in some schools. The formula is based on the number of students in a school activity program and the number registered for free or reduced lunch.

Mississippi: The state association has 13 private schools. A group of school administrators failed to ban private schools from joining the state association in 2013. Other privates compete in an independent state association that also features schools from Arkansas and Louisiana.

Missouri: A 1.35 multiplier is applied to private schools in all sports. An additional 2.0 multiplier is applied to single-sex schools. A court ruled that the multipliers were not unconstitutional.

Montana: NM

Nebraska: Multiplier and other enrollment adjustment proposals have been defeated.

Nevada: A point system, based on recent success, is used to move teams up or down a division every two years.

New Hampshire: NM

New Jersey: There are multiple classifications and tournaments for public and non-public schools. Some sports bring multiple state champions together to create a Tournament of Champions.

New Mexico: NM

New York: There are multiple athletic associations, one of which is affiliated with the National Federation of High Schools. It slots non-public schools into divisions based on past success, enrollment and level of competition.

North Carolina: The state association does not allow non-boarding parochial schools to provide financial aid to athletes. There are also separate associations for independent and Christian schools.

Ohio: A competitive balance referendum is up for vote by state principals for the fourth consecutive year. The current plan includes sports-specific multipliers for football, volleyball, basketball, baseball, softball and soccer.

North Dakota: NM

Oklahoma: A state association committee is exploring reclassification in all sports.

Oregon: The state association rejected a multiplier proposal in 2012.

Pennsylvania: Competitive balance remains an ongoing issue. Prior to 1972, parochial schools competed in a separate association. The state government stopped a proposed return to split associations in 2000.

Rhode Island: NM

South Carolina: There is an independent school state association, but privates and publics also compete together in a separate association.

South Dakota: NM

Tennessee: Schools are split into two divisions: Division I for publics and privates that don't provide financial aid, and Division II for privates that offer financial aid. A 1.8 multiplier is applied to privates in Division I.

Texas: There are separate associations for public and private schools, but the public association is exploring the idea of including private schools.

Utah: NM

Vermont: NM

Virginia: There are separate tournaments and state associations for public and private schools.

Washington: NM

West Virginia: NM

Wisconsin: Separation of public and private schools ended in the 1990s. The state association created a committee in 2014 to examine competitive balance after a multiplier formula was proposed.

Wyoming: NM
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby nolan4 » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:03 am

ndlionsfan wrote:Just throwing this out there to keep some discussion going now that the season is done. Looking at classb4ever's enrollment data, there are many different ways the state could go to a three class system. Based on the current 106 teams, here are 4 ways that it could work.

Based on enrollment....
Using 150-450 for the middle class (I chose that because its about the closest to a 3x difference between smallest and largest in each class) would give 16 teams AA, 29 teams A, 81 teams B.

Using 175-500 for the middle class would give 16 teams AA (Belcourt and DL could fall down soon, though), 21 teams in A (Little small in my opinion), and 89 in B.

Using something similar to the fball plan...
Top 16 in AA, Next 24 in A, remaining (86) in B
or
Top 16 in AA, Next 32 in A, remaining (78) in B, plans could be reevaluated every 5 years but then you have teams moving up/down all the time.

In any plan any team can opt up a division. To decrease on travel teams would not be required to play all the teams in their region. Postseason seeding could be determined by a power point system similar to SD. For instance, that would encourage good teams to play up a division for more points and get more interesting matchups across the state throughout the season. It would also be interesting to have a "Super A" format for all divisions state tournaments to keep the same three weekends in March, but not have it on two courts. Start earlier in the morning and play them all the way through alternating. Drop the 7th/8th place game at each tournament to save a few games if necessary. I rarely go to the state tournaments, but never miss a game on TV. If I could see the top 8 teams in boys/girls at one location on the same weekend I would be an attendee every year.

Like I said, not really advocating for a 3 class system per say, just throwing some ideas out there to keep some discussion going. I always have an open mind and would look at options to try something new in the state.


I am also not in favor of a 3 class system, but if it were to happen, I would favor the 16-32-rest of schools format, with privates and reservation schools being in the middle class......and like the idea of schools opting up if they so choose, like in football. But it should be called A, B , C not AA, A , B.......because in the past the small schools were C, and middle schools were B. :) IMO
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby HammerTime » Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:39 pm

You know, I've never gotten a reason for why people are opposed to a three class system. Why? Is it just "the way things have always been," or too much change from what we have right now, or they think it would ruin the atmosphere of the state tournament? I realize you could say, "why change? Why bother?" And I realize this entire forum has been the reasons for and against, but it really feels as though we just throw statistics and emotion at each other.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:41 am

HammerTime wrote:You know, I've never gotten a reason for why people are opposed to a three class system. Why? Is it just "the way things have always been," or too much change from what we have right now, or they think it would ruin the atmosphere of the state tournament? I realize you could say, "why change? Why bother?" And I realize this entire forum has been the reasons for and against, but it really feels as though we just throw statistics and emotion at each other.


To address throwing statistics out there, I have put the information in this thread to be used in any discussion. It can be used however seen fit. People like to pick and choose what they use for their side of debates. I think the data on this thread is pretty close and if viewed openly, paints a pretty good picture of what has taken place over the past 20 years. It can be useful in seeing trends develop.
As for emotions, that will always happen on anything when it comes to class b basketball.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Hinsa » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:08 pm

HammerTime wrote:You know, I've never gotten a reason for why people are opposed to a three class system. Why? Is it just "the way things have always been," or too much change from what we have right now, or they think it would ruin the atmosphere of the state tournament? I realize you could say, "why change? Why bother?" And I realize this entire forum has been the reasons for and against, but it really feels as though we just throw statistics and emotion at each other.


Here is my opinion on why I don't like 3 classes. It is not based on facts and figures, it is based on my thoughts and feelings.

Adding another class waters down the achievement of making the state tournament, or winning the state tournament. To extend that thought, 3 classes gets right on the bandwagon of the "trophy for everyone" mentality.

For those 2 reasons, I cannot stomach the thought of 3 class basketball. Some examples:

Would the entire state remember the Epping Eagles were it not for the showdown against the big, bad, mighty Hillsboro team? If it was, oh, say Epping against Munich in a class C tourney, would it still have the instant recognition and memories that it now has? Of course not.

Would they have made a movie (Hoosiers) out of French Lick vs. Hanover in the state single A tournament (Indiana now has 4 classes up to four A) instead of Hickory (town of less than 1000) vs. Muncie Central (11th largest city in the state)? Of course not.

Yes, these are 2 extreme examples, but they prove the point. The bigger the underdog, the bigger the achievement. The bigger the mismatch, the more that people become emotionally invested. The bigger the achievement, the more emotional investment, the more exciting the tournament is.

More and more ND is contemplating water for more trophies. Hand out more, decrease the accomplishment, make sure everyone has a close to equal chance. Well dammit, that ain't the way life works! You hit the work world you are NOT competing on a level playing field. You do NOT have a close to equal chance to get the business job against an Ivy League grad. You do NOT have a close to equal chance to get an on air radio job if you have a nasal cavity that makes you sound like Peter Griffin from Family Guy. You will NOT become a professional gambler if you get major pits whenever you are trying to run a bluff.

Leave it at two classes. Teach kids about hard work. Let them learn how rewarding over-achieving can be. Let them learn that no matter how much they work and overachieve, it doesn't always work out.

Again, this is my opinion on the subject. I do not have all the answers, but I feel like lowering the bar is rarely a good answer.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Sticks11 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:59 pm

Hinsa wrote:
HammerTime wrote:You know, I've never gotten a reason for why people are opposed to a three class system. Why? Is it just "the way things have always been," or too much change from what we have right now, or they think it would ruin the atmosphere of the state tournament? I realize you could say, "why change? Why bother?" And I realize this entire forum has been the reasons for and against, but it really feels as though we just throw statistics and emotion at each other.


Here is my opinion on why I don't like 3 classes. It is not based on facts and figures, it is based on my thoughts and feelings.

Adding another class waters down the achievement of making the state tournament, or winning the state tournament. To extend that thought, 3 classes gets right on the bandwagon of the "trophy for everyone" mentality.

For those 2 reasons, I cannot stomach the thought of 3 class basketball. Some examples:

Would the entire state remember the Epping Eagles were it not for the showdown against the big, bad, mighty Hillsboro team? If it was, oh, say Epping against Munich in a class C tourney, would it still have the instant recognition and memories that it now has? Of course not.

Would they have made a movie (Hoosiers) out of French Lick vs. Hanover in the state single A tournament (Indiana now has 4 classes up to four A) instead of Hickory (town of less than 1000) vs. Muncie Central (11th largest city in the state)? Of course not.

Yes, these are 2 extreme examples, but they prove the point. The bigger the underdog, the bigger the achievement. The bigger the mismatch, the more that people become emotionally invested. The bigger the achievement, the more emotional investment, the more exciting the tournament is.

More and more ND is contemplating water for more trophies. Hand out more, decrease the accomplishment, make sure everyone has a close to equal chance. Well dammit, that ain't the way life works! You hit the work world you are NOT competing on a level playing field. You do NOT have a close to equal chance to get the business job against an Ivy League grad. You do NOT have a close to equal chance to get an on air radio job if you have a nasal cavity that makes you sound like Peter Griffin from Family Guy. You will NOT become a professional gambler if you get major pits whenever you are trying to run a bluff.

Leave it at two classes. Teach kids about hard work. Let them learn how rewarding over-achieving can be. Let them learn that no matter how much they work and overachieve, it doesn't always work out.

Again, this is my opinion on the subject. I do not have all the answers, but I feel like lowering the bar is rarely a good answer.


Great response Hinsa. I agree. I am not in favor of a 3-Class System. Some of these examples were not only awesome (Hoosier reference), but I feel are on point.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:37 pm

Really? Good response? Referencing a game from 1954? And it was Milan if I remember correctly. Then also bringing up Epping and Hillsboro, a game from 37 years ago. How did that turn out for Epping? Not in favor of giving anything for free, but don't give me this crap it's all about hard work. Are you insinuating that a player from a small school who just got knocked off in a region game for the 4th year in a row by a big didn't work hard enough? It's all fine and dandy to tell these kids to keep running into that brick wall. "Listen kids, just remember in 1954 a kid knocked a hole in that wall so keep running into it head first. And if you don't, you are a quitter and don't work hard enough." As long as you are the brick wall, who cares, right? You don't want to see real numbers or results because it might burst your bubble. If you want to debate, let's debate, but please tell me you have something better than a "Hickory" story from 1954.
If there isn't a better system than what what we have now, fine, but quit making up excuses and using the past for your arguments. Why are we introducing "Mercy Rules"? Hey, life isn't fair. I think they should be forced to keep their starters in until ahead by 50 points. Really give it to them. Teach them life isn't fair, right? And the excuse that it's illegal to adjust enrollment by a multiplier. But wait, ND does adjust its enrollments, doesn't it?
One thing I suggest every parent teach their kid: Work hard and good things will happen, but if it doesn't, just remember that life isn't always fair. And oh by the way, make sure you are the one who is writing the rules.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Sticks11 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:13 am

classB4ever wrote:Really? Good response? Referencing a game from 1954? And it was Milan if I remember correctly. Then also bringing up Epping and Hillsboro, a game from 37 years ago. How did that turn out for Epping? Not in favor of giving anything for free, but don't give me this crap it's all about hard work. Are you insinuating that a player from a small school who just got knocked off in a region game for the 4th year in a row by a big didn't work hard enough? It's all fine and dandy to tell these kids to keep running into that brick wall. "Listen kids, just remember in 1954 a kid knocked a hole in that wall so keep running into it head first. And if you don't, you are a quitter and don't work hard enough." As long as you are the brick wall, who cares, right? You don't want to see real numbers or results because it might burst your bubble. If you want to debate, let's debate, but please tell me you have something better than a "Hickory" story from 1954.
If there isn't a better system than what what we have now, fine, but quit making up excuses and using the past for your arguments. Why are we introducing "Mercy Rules"? Hey, life isn't fair. I think they should be forced to keep their starters in until ahead by 50 points. Really give it to them. Teach them life isn't fair, right? And the excuse that it's illegal to adjust enrollment by a multiplier. But wait, ND does adjust its enrollments, doesn't it?

One thing I suggest every parent teach their kid: Work hard and good things will happen, but if it doesn't, just remember that life isn't always fair. And oh by the way, make sure you are the one who is writing the rules.


I didn't see it that way. I saw it as when you add a 3rd class it does take away from the accomplishment of what happened in two classes. I don't think it was degrading the "small school." On the other side of it, yes, I do agree with your reference of the small school getting knocked off for the 4th straight year by a big school. I just think that still happens in 3 classes. I think the point being made was that if you look back historically, even in the recent past, let's pick 2011 - Do we look at North Star and their accomplishments the same way if they're winning that in the supposed "Class C?"
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:21 am

Sticks11 wrote:I didn't see it that way. I saw it as when you add a 3rd class it does take away from the accomplishment of what happened in two classes. I don't think it was degrading the "small school." On the other side of it, yes, I do agree with your reference of the small school getting knocked off for the 4th straight year by a big school. I just think that still happens in 3 classes.


Indeed. Not sticking up for 3 classes. Just tired of hearing some of the old excuses, especially if it was before man walked on the moon. :idea:
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:40 am

Sticks11 wrote:I think the point being made was that if you look back historically, even in the recent past, let's pick 2011 - Do we look at North Star and their accomplishments the same way if they're winning that in the supposed "Class C?"


You can look back in recent past and pick a few teams and make great points. Take those few special teams out of the equation in the past 15 years, and what do you have? Milnor, for instance. Berthold, Cavalier, LMM, Linton/HMB and Northstar. The state tourney would have looked pretty bleak if you want to pick and choose who you use for a debate. You chose North Star. Would their 2011 championship have been less of an accomplishment in a lesser division? Absolutely agree with you that it was probably more special in B. You could also look at it from another perspective, they might have surpassed the 100 straight win plateau in a "Class C." Would that be a great accomplishment? I don't know. Does it change how hard they worked, or how much time they put into sports or anything else? Guessing not.
My problem is someone coming on here and saying if you lose, then you didn't work hard enough. Pull up your panties and work harder and if you still lose, well, life isn't fair. But, put that person who makes that statement on the other side of the fence, and then let's see what happens. At least be creative in proving why a 3rd class isn't the answer.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:42 am

I wouldn't be as open minded for the three class idea if our two classes were more evenly split. We have a total of about 125 teams in ND and 106 of those are in one class.
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby Sportsrube » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:03 am

I still think that if you put all private schools in Class A, a lot of people complaining about the "unfairness" in Class B would be content with the system. I think there are more people upset about the private schools than the "big" Class B schools. (Just my opinion)
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby justplayalready » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:20 am

Sportsrube wrote:I still think that if you put all private schools in Class A, a lot of people complaining about the "unfairness" in Class B would be content with the system. I think there are more people upset about the private schools than the "big" Class B schools. (Just my opinion)



I would have agreed with this a few years back...I do think the Privates have taken the brunt of the complaints, but It is more of a population driven advantage then anything, and the privates have historically benefited having a geographical advantage. I do believe the next few years in the Minot area(If oil trends back up) will bring this forward as a Class B issue, where as it was a Class A issue in Bismarck and Fargo...

One family can make or break a season on a class B level if they choose a private or open enroll...not as much on a class A...
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Re: Remaining Teams - Records vs. other Regions

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:22 am

Sportsrube wrote:I still think that if you put all private schools in Class A, a lot of people complaining about the "unfairness" in Class B would be content with the system. I think there are more people upset about the private schools than the "big" Class B schools. (Just my opinion)


another reason to just put privates in class A is that most of them have plenty of room for more students and they are already in the big citys of ND so it would instantly give opportunity for evening the plain with some students electing to go to a different school.........
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