How District 5 Screwed Watford City

[classB4ever]

A few things to consider when talking about a three class system and who is placed in the middle class:

3. One of the main reasons people want to keep the two class system is because of how big an event the class b state tournament has become.

I actually think the popularity of the state B tourney has gone down in the last 10 years

I agree with this. North Dakotans have been migrating from rural areas to larger towns since, what, World War II? With every year that goes by, a larger percentage of North Dakotans live in class A towns with children attending class A schools. The state's class B population has steadily declined for generations, with the energy boom slowing that trend now in some places. The 'B' represents a smaller slice of North Dakota's population than it used to.

Arguments can be made in favor of a 3 class plan, but one that I'm not buying is the argument that a 3 class system will re-energize the small school state tournament. You can't grow interest in that tournament by subtracting more schools from the equation. Class B used to have over 200 schools competing. It's now just a shade over 100. Trim the largest schools off the top via a 3 class plan, and the smallest schools that may inevitably close their doors, and class B's slice of the pie will be even smaller. You'll see more empty seats and less media coverage.

Isn't it great, by the way, that we have at least a few class B schools being added to the map again? Alexander will field volleyball and basketball programs next year. Nedrose and South Prairie are on the way as well.

The 'B' tournament is great, but it is not THE event that it used to be. And that's OK. It still serves the 'B' population quite well.

I am not so sure about the above bold. It may be true. However, by removing "some" of the power house regulars from various regions, other schools who have been beaten out on a regular basis over the years, may now break through. I guarantee they will bring a huge following if they do. Also, you may be correct on less media coverage, but the seasonal media coverage for class b has been on the decline for quite some time anyway. I am not a "ribbon" for every kid type of person, but I do believe in having a somewhat equal playing field and let them duke it out. Will be interesting to see how this plays out as the landscape rapidly changes across the state.

[heimer]

A few things to consider when talking about a three class system and who is placed in the middle class:

3. One of the main reasons people want to keep the two class system is because of how big an event the class b state tournament has become.

I actually think the popularity of the state B tourney has gone down in the last 10 years

I agree with this. North Dakotans have been migrating from rural areas to larger towns since, what, World War II? With every year that goes by, a larger percentage of North Dakotans live in class A towns with children attending class A schools. The state's class B population has steadily declined for generations, with the energy boom slowing that trend now in some places. The 'B' represents a smaller slice of North Dakota's population than it used to.

Arguments can be made in favor of a 3 class plan, but one that I'm not buying is the argument that a 3 class system will re-energize the small school state tournament. You can't grow interest in that tournament by subtracting more schools from the equation. Class B used to have over 200 schools competing. It's now just a shade over 100. Trim the largest schools off the top via a 3 class plan, and the smallest schools that may inevitably close their doors, and class B's slice of the pie will be even smaller. You'll see more empty seats and less media coverage.

Isn't it great, by the way, that we have at least a few class B schools being added to the map again? Alexander will field volleyball and basketball programs next year. Nedrose and South Prairie are on the way as well.

The 'B' tournament is great, but it is not THE event that it used to be. And that's OK. It still serves the 'B' population quite well.

And here it is. Because it still serves the "B" population well, we're supposed to just sit back and take it up the tailpipe from the "B" population.

It has to serve the state, and, as has been pointed out on this thread already, it's not doing that as well as it used to. So, your solution is to keep doing what we're doing until we've wrecked it, then try to fix it.

Short-sighted Kool-Aid sipping "B" nonsense.

Give me a combined AA-A tournament, where those powerhouse B's end up playing a metro-type team, and continue for three days, and you'll have a tournament that will surpass what the B's are offering up now, period.

I would love to see a game between Central Cass and Fargo Davies in the opening round. A Dickinson Trinity vs Bismarck High. And we'd do it four times. At some point (and with the splitting of schools in Fargo, West Fargo and Bismarck, along with the proposed split in Minot, perhaps far sooner than we think), those smaller schools will hand it to the big guys, and what a first round to remember.

But no, since what we're doing serves the B crowd so well, lets just keep doing what we do. Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

NDHSAA is insane.

[balla45]

I disagree with you. I can't imagine many fans would show much interest in watching Davies boys or girls beat Central Cass boys or girls by 20+ every year. Addition out, a combined tournament would more than likely field 3 out of 4 A teams who are not even going to be remotely competitive, while competitive teams with an actual chance to win sir at home.

Imagine being one of the Fargo school, say last year's West Fargo, who would probably beat Central Cass by 35, beating them twice in the regular season by 35ish, but watching them play in a state tournament because they beat teams who belong in Class B, while West Fargo lost to Wahpeton and Fargo Davies.

[triplebbb]

The thing about Watford City is the student population is WAY UP but the number of athletes is the same. The post earlier about 40 freshman girls in volleyball is nonsense. We have a policy of no cutting of Freshman or Sophs anyway. I believe one sr. and one jr. were cut. Ended up with about 40 on the football team, we have 23 in 9-12 girls basketball. Boys basketball 8-12 about 40 kids. We've got a few athletes from the boom but not nearly enough to compete with A schools in basketball. We will struggle it up and do what we have to but it won't be very fun for us or most of our opponents. No excuses, we've reached the magic number and will have to live with the rules.

[east sider]

Her is my prediction, mark it down. Watford City will be a larger school district than Valley City, Wahpeton, Bismarck St. Mary's, and Fargo Shanley when it enters class A athletics, and it will be approaching the size of Devils Lake and Turtle Mountain. We are supposed to feel sorry for Watford city and redraw the map when it will be larger than 4 to 6 schools when it enters the division?

I heard from a Watford City coach that they had 40 freshmen girls out for volleyball this year, and they had to cut 20 of them. Those participation numbers are unimaginable in a class B town, and are much more in line with class A. They will hold their own in just a matter of a few years.

Your prediction may very well serve to be accurate.

Nevertheless, it's clear that Watford City would fit BETTER in a middle division, as would the four-to-six schools it will be bigger than.

And your enrollment ranges (see earlier post) again protect a handful of privates that enjoy the fruits of large-town living at the small school level. Take the schools in your enrollment range and add every parochial that is in a Class A town, and you get to 16 or so pretty fast.

Central Cass
Grafton
Valley City
Wahpeton
Devils Lake
Shanley
St Marys
Watford City
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Our Redeemers
Dickinson Trinity
Trinity Christian
Minot Ryan
Shiloh Christian
Beulah
Hazen

There's 16 pretty easy. And that doesn't include some of those aforementioned communities that are growing and on the cusp of moving up.

But no, protect those privates that love big-city life.....until tournament time. Great system.

so are you implying the State needs a class that nobody will care about out of resentment ??

Exactly.

And 16 is a stupid low number to randomly pick. Sort of ironic how there is a thread in Class A complaining about teams playing the same old teams every year. Lets be honest, ND's rapid demographic shifts draw a lot of current and future problems either way. I think we'll be 3 classes sooner than later when the time is right.

I'd rather drink my Kool-aid than smoke hallucinogens.

[east sider]

A few things to consider when talking about a three class system and who is placed in the middle class:

3. One of the main reasons people want to keep the two class system is because of how big an event the class b state tournament has become.

I actually think the popularity of the state B tourney has gone down in the last 10 years

I agree with this. North Dakotans have been migrating from rural areas to larger towns since, what, World War II? With every year that goes by, a larger percentage of North Dakotans live in class A towns with children attending class A schools. The state's class B population has steadily declined for generations, with the energy boom slowing that trend now in some places. The 'B' represents a smaller slice of North Dakota's population than it used to.

Arguments can be made in favor of a 3 class plan, but one that I'm not buying is the argument that a 3 class system will re-energize the small school state tournament. You can't grow interest in that tournament by subtracting more schools from the equation. Class B used to have over 200 schools competing. It's now just a shade over 100. Trim the largest schools off the top via a 3 class plan, and the smallest schools that may inevitably close their doors, and class B's slice of the pie will be even smaller. You'll see more empty seats and less media coverage.

Isn't it great, by the way, that we have at least a few class B schools being added to the map again? Alexander will field volleyball and basketball programs next year. Nedrose and South Prairie are on the way as well.

The 'B' tournament is great, but it is not THE event that it used to be. And that's OK. It still serves the 'B' population quite well.

I am not so sure about the above bold. It may be true. However, by removing "some" of the power house regulars from various regions, other schools who have been beaten out on a regular basis over the years, may now break through. I guarantee they will bring a huge following if they do. Also, you may be correct on less media coverage, but the seasonal media coverage for class b has been on the decline for quite some time anyway. I am not a "ribbon" for every kid type of person, but I do believe in having a somewhat equal playing field and let them duke it out. Will be interesting to see how this plays out as the landscape rapidly changes across the state.

I think getting some new blood will help a little. I imagine Flasher had a pretty good following there after making it for the first time in many years. But I think other things have happened that hurt it greatly:
1. less B schools
2. cost - add up hotel, gas, and eating out and we're talking half G for a weekend of basketball, which brings me to last point
3. TV - HD in the comfort of your own home for free will pretty much kill what we remember of the B

[classB4ever]

I think getting some new blood will help a little. I imagine Flasher had a pretty good following there after making it for the first time in many years. But I think other things have happened that hurt it greatly:
1. less B schools
2. cost - add up hotel, gas, and eating out and we're talking half G for a weekend of basketball, which brings me to last point
3. TV - HD in the comfort of your own home for free will pretty much kill what we remember of the B

1. Maybe.
2. Not sure about this. 1/2 a G isn't that much if you consider it a small vacation going to support your team which may happen only once in a lifetime.
3. Same as 2. If you are just a casual fan going to watch, then you are probably correct.

[heimer]

If you're just a casual fan, you weren't making the trip anyway.

Let's face it. It's not just basketball that is to blame for the downturn in the B tournament.

It is no longer the single greatest entertainment source for the state, or even the community it's in.

Fargo, Grand Forks, and Bismarck all get big concerts, Minot gets them with the fair, and the population has shifted to that way of thinking.

It's no longer a big deal to that town to be awarded the state tournament. Casual fans don't go anymore. Basketball can't compete with Brad Paisley, NDSU football, or UND hockey.

That's why it's hurting.

If the tournament is to be an entertainment venue, the tournament needs to be re-invented. As long as it's just about basketball, and the old way of doing basketball, it will continue to slide.

It's just not a big deal anymore.

[packers21]

If you're just a casual fan, you weren't making the trip anyway.

Let's face it. It's not just basketball that is to blame for the downturn in the B tournament.

It is no longer the single greatest entertainment source for the state, or even the community it's in.

Fargo, Grand Forks, and Bismarck all get big concerts, Minot gets them with the fair, and the population has shifted to that way of thinking.

It's no longer a big deal to that town to be awarded the state tournament. Casual fans don't go anymore. Basketball can't compete with Brad Paisley, NDSU football, or UND hockey.

That's why it's hurting.

If the tournament is to be an entertainment venue, the tournament needs to be re-invented. As long as it's just about basketball, and the old way of doing basketball, it will continue to slide.

It's just not a big deal anymore.

Not true, many casual fans still go to the B and it is still a big deal. Not as big as it once was but it still draws in casual fans

[winner-within]

I think its a huge deal...I know many Minnesotans that even attend...and most on the east side of the Red for a ways watch it on TV....this site is all smoke and mirrors now and then on painting a picture....I cant even go to Valley City without thinking of Preps....

This site isn't helping Basketball (boys girls Class A Class B) at times, with all the rhetoric and irreverence.....the one thing I know is if a person doesn't love the sport, a person wont like the system.....

whats hurt the tourney is the Alerus or the Fargo Dome....you have to have it in a Basketball Gym that doesnt charge $5.00 for a water that you can spit threw the plastic its in...

lower the cost of going and get the hype out of it and play basketball....the sport comes first and the rest follows....who was supposed to win and who won is Flippin irrelevant

[Bisonguy06]

A few things to consider when talking about a three class system and who is placed in the middle class:

3. One of the main reasons people want to keep the two class system is because of how big an event the class b state tournament has become.

I actually think the popularity of the state B tourney has gone down in the last 10 years

I agree with this. North Dakotans have been migrating from rural areas to larger towns since, what, World War II? With every year that goes by, a larger percentage of North Dakotans live in class A towns with children attending class A schools. The state's class B population has steadily declined for generations, with the energy boom slowing that trend now in some places. The 'B' represents a smaller slice of North Dakota's population than it used to.

Arguments can be made in favor of a 3 class plan, but one that I'm not buying is the argument that a 3 class system will re-energize the small school state tournament. You can't grow interest in that tournament by subtracting more schools from the equation. Class B used to have over 200 schools competing. It's now just a shade over 100. Trim the largest schools off the top via a 3 class plan, and the smallest schools that may inevitably close their doors, and class B's slice of the pie will be even smaller. You'll see more empty seats and less media coverage.

Isn't it great, by the way, that we have at least a few class B schools being added to the map again? Alexander will field volleyball and basketball programs next year. Nedrose and South Prairie are on the way as well.

The 'B' tournament is great, but it is not THE event that it used to be. And that's OK. It still serves the 'B' population quite well.

And here it is. Because it still serves the "B" population well, we're supposed to just sit back and take it up the tailpipe from the "B" population.

It has to serve the state, and, as has been pointed out on this thread already, it's not doing that as well as it used to. So, your solution is to keep doing what we're doing until we've wrecked it, then try to fix it.

Short-sighted Kool-Aid sipping "B" nonsense.

Give me a combined AA-A tournament, where those powerhouse B's end up playing a metro-type team, and continue for three days, and you'll have a tournament that will surpass what the B's are offering up now, period.

I would love to see a game between Central Cass and Fargo Davies in the opening round. A Dickinson Trinity vs Bismarck High. And we'd do it four times. At some point (and with the splitting of schools in Fargo, West Fargo and Bismarck, along with the proposed split in Minot, perhaps far sooner than we think), those smaller schools will hand it to the big guys, and what a first round to remember.

But no, since what we're doing serves the B crowd so well, lets just keep doing what we do. Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

NDHSAA is insane.

Insanity is going 'round and 'round on these topics, year after year, and thinking that something positive will come from this. Let's just summarize where we've been and where we're headed and we'll save some time.

I'll say that North Dakota doesn't have a 'middle' to support another plan. I'll back it with some numbers.
You'll see the numbers differently.
You'll claim I'm stuck in the past, when in fact it's the three class plan that comes from the 1960s.
Both of us will claim that the other one is closed-minded. Neither one of us will be willing to budge an inch from our initial point of view.
You'll propose a hybrid AA/A and B setup that has Hazen and Minot High ultimately playing for the same trophy. Some will see that as an improvement, but not me.
And finally, the assumption will be made that my favorite beverage is Kool-Aid, when in fact it is Mountain Dew.

[Sniper]

I think its a huge deal...I know many Minnesotans that even attend...and most on the east side of the Red for a ways watch it on TV....this site is all smoke and mirrors now and then on painting a picture....I cant even go to Valley City without thinking of Preps....

This site isn't helping Basketball (boys girls Class A Class B) at times, with all the rhetoric and irreverence.....the one thing I know is if a person doesn't love the sport, a person wont like the system.....

whats hurt the tourney is the Alerus or the Fargo Dome....you have to have it in a Basketball Gym that doesnt charge $5.00 for a water that you can spit threw the plastic its in...

lower the cost of going and get the hype out of it and play basketball....the sport comes first and the rest follows....who was supposed to win and who won is Flippin irrelevant

Agree with this. IMO the Alerus center has a nice set up but Grand Forks is a bad location. Fargo is a better location but the Fargo Dome does not have a basketball feel. Bismarck and Minot are the two ideal places to hold a state tournament because in both places you play in buildings made for basketball. Also both places are not all the way on one side of the state, they are kind of in the middle.

[balla45]

You'll propose a hybrid AA/A and B setup that has Hazen and Minot High ultimately playing for the same trophy. Some will see that as an improvement, but not me.

Could not agree more.

[heimer]

You'll propose a hybrid AA/A and B setup that has Hazen and Minot High ultimately playing for the same trophy. Some will see that as an improvement, but not me.

Could not agree more.

Neither of you would see any change as an improvement.

That's the trouble with Kool-Aid.

Hey, we're already 20 years overdue. What's another 10?

Oh, and to your point about the same set up since the 60's: not true. Remember 1991? Yeah, since "the merger", we've changed components of every sport based on eligibility.......except basketball.

But, like I said, if you want to keep plunging the knife deeper each year, by all means, continue. Football continues to gain popularity, A basketball is getting better and better. Being third fiddle isn't all that bad. Unless it's girls basketball, then it's like eighth fiddle (reference switching seasons, lack of participation, and that disastrous last minute in Grand Forks that led Kidder County to a title......and a shot clock into every gym. Turns out keep-away is not the game people paid money to see).

[balla45]

You'll propose a hybrid AA/A and B setup that has Hazen and Minot High ultimately playing for the same trophy. Some will see that as an improvement, but not me.

Could not agree more.

Neither of you would see any change as an improvement.

That's the trouble with Kool-Aid.

Hey, we're already 20 years overdue. What's another 10?

Oh, and to your point about the same set up since the 60's: not true. Remember 1991? Yeah, since "the merger", we've changed components of every sport based on eligibility.......except basketball.

But, like I said, if you want to keep plunging the knife deeper each year, by all means, continue. Football continues to gain popularity, A basketball is getting better and better. Being third fiddle isn't all that bad. Unless it's girls basketball, then it's like eighth fiddle (reference switching seasons, lack of participation, and that disastrous last minute in Grand Forks that led Kidder County to a title......and a shot clock into every gym. Turns out keep-away is not the game people paid money to see).

I would see certain changes as improvement. Have a Class A, a Class B, and a Class C, or however you want to word it, and have them compete for their own title. It is unrealistic to expect a team like Shiloh Christian to have to compete with Bismarck Century for a championship.

[ndlionsfan]

You'll propose a hybrid AA/A and B setup that has Hazen and Minot High ultimately playing for the same trophy. Some will see that as an improvement, but not me.

Could not agree more.

Neither of you would see any change as an improvement.

That's the trouble with Kool-Aid.

Hey, we're already 20 years overdue. What's another 10?

Oh, and to your point about the same set up since the 60's: not true. Remember 1991? Yeah, since "the merger", we've changed components of every sport based on eligibility.......except basketball.

But, like I said, if you want to keep plunging the knife deeper each year, by all means, continue. Football continues to gain popularity, A basketball is getting better and better. Being third fiddle isn't all that bad. Unless it's girls basketball, then it's like eighth fiddle (reference switching seasons, lack of participation, and that disastrous last minute in Grand Forks that led Kidder County to a title......and a shot clock into every gym. Turns out keep-away is not the game people paid money to see).

It is unrealistic to expect a team like Shiloh Christian to have to compete with Bismarck Century for a championship.

Is it really that much different than having New England compete with Trinity or Beulah for one?

[The Schwab]

You'll propose a hybrid AA/A and B setup that has Hazen and Minot High ultimately playing for the same trophy. Some will see that as an improvement, but not me.

Could not agree more.

Neither of you would see any change as an improvement.

That's the trouble with Kool-Aid.

Hey, we're already 20 years overdue. What's another 10?

Oh, and to your point about the same set up since the 60's: not true. Remember 1991? Yeah, since "the merger", we've changed components of every sport based on eligibility.......except basketball.

But, like I said, if you want to keep plunging the knife deeper each year, by all means, continue. Football continues to gain popularity, A basketball is getting better and better. Being third fiddle isn't all that bad. Unless it's girls basketball, then it's like eighth fiddle (reference switching seasons, lack of participation, and that disastrous last minute in Grand Forks that led Kidder County to a title......and a shot clock into every gym. Turns out keep-away is not the game people paid money to see).

It is unrealistic to expect a team like Shiloh Christian to have to compete with Bismarck Century for a championship.

Is it really that much different than having New England compete with Trinity or Beulah for one?

I agree 100%, no difference

[Bisonguy06]

I could settle for "no difference." No difference means no improvement, and I agree that the AA/A and B plan is not an improvement, even though it has been submitted as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

But it's actually a significant step in the wrong direction.

Beulah is in the neighborhood of 200 students grades 9-12. New England has roughly 50.
Minot High has roughly 2200 high school students. Hazen is a shade under 200.

1) Beulah is approximately 150 students or 4x larger than New England
2) Minot is approximately 2000 students or 11x larger than Hazen.

Our "solution" to fix scenario #1 is to create scenario #2??? Seems crazy.

Then again, I'm on my 12th can of Kool-Aid here today and I may not be thinking clearly.

[heimer]

So now the multipliers matter?

Minot is 7X bigger than VC, which dwarfs your 4X number in the other examples.

And the plan was assembled because of TV. You love TV because of it's big bankroll.

[Bisonguy06]

Correct. The largest class A high school is 7x larger than the smallest A school.

The largest 'B' school (Watford City, Central Cass, take your pick) is 7x larger than the smallest (Powers Lake).

So IF you want to play the multipliers game, it turns out we have perfect A/B balance.

[ndlionsfan]

But you also have to realize that Minot it an outlier in class A now and will probably be cut in half in the next 5 years. Most of the other schools are around 1000-1200.

1200 to 200 = 6x
250 to 50 = 5x

both are pretty similar

[Bisonguy06]

Correct. A school at the minimum of 325 in class 'A' is looking at a multiplier of 4 against all the other largest schools not named Minot High.

There are very few 'B' schools larger than 200 (which helps explain why we don't have a 3 class system, by the way), and very few below 50 students. Again you're looking at a multiplier of 4 or so unless you have the real outliers. There are entire regions that don't have a school in the 200s.

Again, no perfect system exists, but the one we have seems reasonably balanced.

[balla45]

I am currently watching Shiloh Christian girls play Beulah. Beulah will likely struggle to score 15 points in this game if the starters stay in the game, and Shiloh Christian will likely contend for a state championship slot. That said, with what I am currently watching, Shiloh Christian likely loses to Bismarck Century by 15. Jaye Two Bears is not playing, so that is a factor.

I think it is just as absurd for Shiloh Christian to play Bismarck Century as compared to New England playing Dickinson Trinity.

I think we would be much better off having three tournaments, as compared to teams like Shiloh Christian and Dickinson Trinity having to compete with Bismarck Century or Minot.

What is currently proposed would just shift the balance of power away from
The larger Class B schools, by putting them in situations where they can not be successful. Just because our current system which works unfavorably for some teams, I don't think we should create a new system to be unfavorable to other teams, just for the sake of them having no chance to compete.

[balla45]

You'll propose a hybrid AA/A and B setup that has Hazen and Minot High ultimately playing for the same trophy. Some will see that as an improvement, but not me.

Could not agree more.

Neither of you would see any change as an improvement.

That's the trouble with Kool-Aid.

Hey, we're already 20 years overdue. What's another 10?

Oh, and to your point about the same set up since the 60's: not true. Remember 1991? Yeah, since "the merger", we've changed components of every sport based on eligibility.......except basketball.

But, like I said, if you want to keep plunging the knife deeper each year, by all means, continue. Football continues to gain popularity, A basketball is getting better and better. Being third fiddle isn't all that bad. Unless it's girls basketball, then it's like eighth fiddle (reference switching seasons, lack of participation, and that disastrous last minute in Grand Forks that led Kidder County to a title......and a shot clock into every gym. Turns out keep-away is not the game people paid money to see).

It is unrealistic to expect a team like Shiloh Christian to have to compete with Bismarck Century for a championship.

Is it really that much different than having New England compete with Trinity or Beulah for one?

I agree 100%, no difference

Yes. I am fairly confident that New England will beat both of those teams this year.

[ndlionsfan]

I knew someone would bring that up since New England is supposed to be very good this year, but that is the exception compared to the norm. I also agree with your points in the previous post. Three separate tournaments would be the most equitable way, but I really don't see that ever happening unless they combine boys/girls tournaments in each class.