How District 5 Screwed Watford City

[balla45]

Would it be difficult to combine the tournaments? We could establish three permanent sites and rotate. Bismarck, Fargo, and Minot. All three locations have the ability and capacity to host a dual gender tournament.

[Run4Fun2009]

Would it be difficult to combine the tournaments? We could establish three permanent sites and rotate. Bismarck, Fargo, and Minot. All three locations have the ability and capacity to host a dual gender tournament.

Would just have to start the seasons about the same time...not have two weeks difference. I think its feasible.

[Bisonguy06]

Let's take a peek at the state tourney field for 2014 volleyball.

North Star over Hankinson for the title
Our Redeemers over Hazen for 3rd.
Also competing: Grant County, Napoleon, Thompson and Ray.

Small public schools took 1st and 2nd, and not exactly a murderer's row of big B's and parochials after that.

Any 'plan' that is crafted for basketball will apply to volleyball, so yeah, this is relevant.

Someone will inevitably want more data or basketball data, so I'll submit that a small public high school played in the state B boys championship game in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013. Obviously 2014's Oak Grove v Rugby title game broke that streak. Still, plenty of small school flavor at the B in the recent past.

We are just one year removed from a year when Milnor won the state title and Four Winds, LaMoure and Trenton finished 2-4. This system isn't broken. I thought that small school sweep was worth at least a three year hiatus on the three class debate. Guess not. But the 'B' is fine.

I did just finish a case of Kool-Aid though, so take that for what it's worth.

[winner-within]

Correct. A school at the minimum of 325 in class 'A' is looking at a multiplier of 4 against all the other largest schools not named Minot High.

There are very few 'B' schools larger than 200 (which helps explain why we don't have a 3 class system, by the way), and very few below 50 students. Again you're looking at a multiplier of 4 or so unless you have the real outliers. There are entire regions that don't have a school in the 200s.

Again, no perfect system exists, but the one we have seems reasonably balanced.

Exactly!.....

[Sportsrube]

I am not going to reiterate what has been said time and time again about 2 classes/3 classes, big vs small BUT I do want to agree with a statement that was previously posted. One of the biggest problems with the Class B tournaments is the placing of basketball tournaments in a football venue. The Fargo Dome and the Alerus Center are not good venues for basketball. (The Fargo Dome is absolutely horrible for basketball) If the tournaments could be held in Bismarck or Minot every year in basketball venues and being centrally located, I think you would see an increase in attendance.

[heimer]

There is nothing horrible about the Fargodome for basketball. Been there, done that. Fargo deserves to be the B boys tournament rotation. At least you know your fans will be taken care of with decent food options and quality service. Unlike Minot (see volleyball thread)

"Let's take a peek at the state tourney field for 2014 volleyball."

Bisonguy06 is back to his old bag of tricks, completely ignoring the regional tournaments in favor of the big show at the end. While you highlight the little school that played for the title, you completely ignore the school that didn't even get a crack at regionals, again due to the mega-Bs and privates.

All you care about is your state tournament-Kool-Aid drinking reunion where all the supers can pat themselves on the back and drool all over themselves about how good the tournament was in 1976.

There are plenty of teams that are viable, truly B-sized schools that will never play in the regionals, or the regional semis, because of another loss to Central Cass or Grafton or Minot Ryan or Fargo Oak Grove or Bismarck Shiloh Christian or Dickinson Trinity (and on and on).

That's what makes the NDHSAA so special. They are the masters at making you forget 14 weeks of basketball in just three days. Too bad the opportunities we extend to the masses truly struggle so we can favor the very few and the good enough this year.

By the way, how's North Star looking without a 6'4" transfer from Valley City?

[go maji]

Speaking from the outside of this discussion, how big of a deal is it for Watford City to move up?

[Bisonguy06]

I wish I could've placed a bet in Vegas on Heimer's next move being a dodge of those state tourney results.

My "bag of tricks" is to cite actual tournament results and to list actual 9-12 enrollments of ND high schools.

Heimer's bag of tricks is to move the goalposts. It's genius, and it's how he 'wins' these debates, in his mind.

I start aiming and kicking with state tourney results and I KNEW he'd move the argument to the regionals, as if it's somehow more important that Watford City eliminated little Powers Lake in the same year that little Milnor beat EVERYBODY.

If I line up and aim at the success of small schools in the regionals (which I've done), he'll move the goalposts again. Then, we'll waste more time arguing about where on the bracket the "state tournament" actually begins.

We'll talk about school enrollment until actual enrollment data surfaces, and then he'll shift the focus to parochial schools, as long as we don't talk about NDHSAA's legal counsel advising that parochials cannot be treated any different than open-enrollment public high schools when it comes to enrollment.

Despite everything I've said to the contrary, he'll claim I don't have an ounce of sympathy for the smallest schools in each class, and he'll claim I don't acknowledge the advantages that parochials do have.

Eventually he'll submit his hybrid AA/A and B plan, and heaven forbid if anyone tries to poke holes in it with a fact-based argument.

Finally, he'll throw his sucker in the dirt and whine that no one will play ball with him, claiming that we're "against all change," conveniently ignoring a whole host of changes I've supported.

For years, I've kicked footballs at this moving target. I've filled up about 25 rows of bleachers behind the endzone. I've also generally avoided personal attacks and pot shots at NDHSAA board members and school administrators. Other people occasionally signal that I've connected on an attempt, but never Heimer. It has been a fun game, indeed. Those goalposts have to be getting heavy, Heimer. What will break down first, your shoulders or my leg?

I'm signing off for the weekend, hopefully longer. Run wild on Preps, the floor is yours. I am throwing a Kool-Aid kegger tonight though if interested.

[heimer]

Lets make this simple.

Someone produce numbers on the last time any of the following failed to advance to regionals:

Central Cass
Grafton
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Ryan
Dickinson Trinity
Beulah
Hazen
Watford City
Our Redeemers

Then, give me a percentage of year's they have advanced to regionals in the past 20 years, compared to other schools in their district.

Your eyes will be opened.

Until then, keep your eyes closed. The target isn't moving, you're just not looking at it. Can't help it if you refuse to aim.

[winner-within]

I think this lyric fits a lot of threads that are directed to so called unfairness

not directly pointed at anybody

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
people leave them kids alone
Hey! people Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.....

[ndlionsfan]

Lets make this simple.

Someone produce numbers on the last time any of the following failed to advance to regionals:

Central Cass
Grafton
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Ryan
Dickinson Trinity
Beulah
Hazen
Watford City
Our Redeemers

Then, give me a percentage of year's they have advanced to regionals in the past 20 years, compared to other schools in their district.

But you left off Trinity Christian who was in your original post about middle class teams and is a parochial school. How come they got left off? And to go with Central Cass, Grafton, Beulah, and Hazen you also need to include Lisbon, Standing Rock, Newtown, DLB, Botno, Stanley, Kindred who would also fall in any reclassification with the previous mentioned teams. Might as well list them all to have accurate data.

[heimer]

Wins in the first and quarters. Basically the same thing.

[Indy5]

There are plenty of teams that are viable, truly B-sized schools that will never play in the regionals, or the regional semis, because of another loss to Central Cass or Grafton or Minot Ryan or Fargo Oak Grove or Bismarck Shiloh Christian or Dickinson Trinity (and on and on).

Ok now. If you don't make the regional tournament, odds are you are not a viable team. 64 teams out of a little over 100 make the region tournament. If you can't fall in the top 64, you are not good.

I realize once in a little while there is a stacked district where the 5th team might be pretty good, but for the most part the 4 seeds in the region tournament are not good teams. We're talking about schools in the bottom half of the state here.

[yellowjacket]

I think it means more to the small class b schools when they knock off the big B's to get to state. It may not happen as often, but when it does its a great story and something the town will talk about for a long time. I think if you water down the product to much it just isn't as good. There may be years when the B has a lot of large schools and years there aren't, but when a small town has that magical run it means so much. I'm from a small B which hasn't had much success recently, but is on the verge of being a contender again. I can't wait to start seeing them beat some of the so called big B's in the coming years.

[Run4Fun2009]

I think it means more to the small class b schools when they knock off the big B's to get to state. It may not happen as often, but when it does its a great story and something the town will talk about for a long time. I think if you water down the product to much it just isn't as good. There may be years when the B has a lot of large schools and years there aren't, but when a small town has that magical run it means so much. I'm from a small B which hasn't had much success recently, but is on the verge of being a contender again. I can't wait to start seeing them beat some of the so called big B's in the coming years.

That was one of the reasons why some of the Small B schools voted against the 3-class system.

Look at Milnor BBB two years ago...Small school knocked off Enderlin, Central Cass & Oak Grove to go to State and then knocked off...then knocked off Shiloh, LaMoure-LM & FW-Minn en route to the title. Using 2013-14 enrollment numbers shows Milnor knocked off 6 larger schools then them (4 who are in top 33.3% of B enrollments).

North Star BBB would be another example in past years.

[BB11]

Lets make this simple.

Someone produce numbers on the last time any of the following failed to advance to regionals:

Central Cass
Grafton
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Ryan
Dickinson Trinity
Beulah
Hazen
Watford City
Our Redeemers

Then, give me a percentage of year's they have advanced to regionals in the past 20 years, compared to other schools in their district.

Your eyes will be opened.

Until then, keep your eyes closed. The target isn't moving, you're just not looking at it. Can't help it if you refuse to aim.

I can't speak to all of these teams - but Our Redeemers has made the regionals only 3 times I believe ever - and if not ever - at least in the last 15 years.
Minot Ryan has missed the region tournament twice in the last ten years - just as much as small schools like Dunseith and Westhope-Newburg in the same region and Berthold has made it all but once to the regions in the last ten years, and they are a smaller school and non-private school as compared to Ryan.
When was the last time Linton missed the regions? They are just as small as Berthold. How many years in the last 20 has Strasburg-Zeeland been irrelevent? Less than 5 I would venture to guess, and they are one of the smallest schools in the state.
Cavalier is not a large school in comparison to the ones you have listed, and I would say with great confidence that they haven't missed the regions more than a couple times in the last 20 years - with their better teams actually coming in the latest years when their school population has decreased tremendously.
Grafton - same thing. When Grafton 1st moved down to B" - they weren't great by any stretch of the imagination. They've really only started making waves in Class B and their region in the last decade.
I do agree that Parochials have hidden obvious advantages. I think that is a no-brainer, and a point that no one can argue against intelligently - but they still have to have kids that put their work in to be a great program. Trinity Christian is not a world beater in basketball by any means, and have only had a few successful teams in the early 2000's. Our Redeemers has basically just become relevant in boys BB in the last 3 or 4 years.
I don't know what the answer is - but I don't understand why a 3 class system would be the best option just because we have about 4 really good private school boys basketball programs in the state, and a dozen or so other big B schools that make the regions every year. There are also a dozen or so small B schools that make the regions every year. I guess I just don't see the relevance of your argument.

[muley14]

There are plenty of teams that are viable, truly B-sized schools that will never play in the regionals, or the regional semis, because of another loss to Central Cass or Grafton or Minot Ryan or Fargo Oak Grove or Bismarck Shiloh Christian or Dickinson Trinity (and on and on).

Ok now. If you don't make the regional tournament, odds are you are not a viable team. 64 teams out of a little over 100 make the region tournament. If you can't fall in the top 64, you are not good.

I realize once in a little while there is a stacked district where the 5th team might be pretty good, but for the most part the 4 seeds in the region tournament are not good teams. We're talking about schools in the bottom half of the state here.

I tried to do a quick count so it could be wrong, but I counted 15 of the 64 teams that made it to regionals last year were .500 teams or less. So let's remove the "top" 16 teams from the 64, 16 more teams that would more than likely have even poorer records than that would make regionals. So now half of the teams that go to regionals have a sub .500 record. What sense does this make? I know there is going to be the argument that these teams are going to lose less games because the don't have to play the "top" teams any more. SO WHAT!! They already couldn't beat the sub .500 teams.

I think a better option than a three class system is to allow the teams that don't make it out of districts to play an "NIT" tournament. This way we can still have the cinderella teams that everyone loves to cheer for and we get to see who the best team is of the bottom 40% of the teams in the state is.

And all this complaining about the parochial school...Do they have some advantages? Absolutely! That's why it is so much sweeter when my team beats them!

[balla45]

Lets make this simple.

Someone produce numbers on the last time any of the following failed to advance to regionals:

Central Cass
Grafton
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Ryan
Dickinson Trinity
Beulah
Hazen
Watford City
Our Redeemers

Then, give me a percentage of year's they have advanced to regionals in the past 20 years, compared to other schools in their district.

Your eyes will be opened.

Until then, keep your eyes closed. The target isn't moving, you're just not looking at it. Can't help it if you refuse to aim.

Lets make this simple.

Someone produce numbers on the last time any of the following failed to advance to state for 3 consecutive seasons:

Bismarck
Fargo South
Minot
West Fargo
Bismack Century
Fargo North
Mandan
Grand Forks Red River

Then, give me a percentage of year's they have advanced to state in the past 20 years, compared to other schools in their class.

Your eyes will be opened.

Until then, keep your eyes closed. The target isn't moving, you're just not looking at it. Can't help it if you refuse to aim.




Using your logic, we should create a different class for the other Class A teams because these teams make state every year, and Devil's Lake and Turtle Mountain should not be forced to compete with them.

[classB4ever]

I have a question and it may have been addressed before, but haven't seen the answer. The topic of litigation has came up if the NDHSAA were to ever use a multiplier concerning certain schools. However, isn't the NDHSAA using a multiplier right now when using the "Free & Reduced Meals" to adjust enrollment concerning athletics? I understand "the why", but one could argue that those disadvantages are no different on one end of the spectrum than the other.

[The Schwab]

I have a question and it may have been addressed before, but haven't seen the answer. The topic of litigation has came up if the NDHSAA were to ever use a multiplier concerning certain schools. However, isn't the NDHSAA using a multiplier right now when using the "Free & Reduced Meals" to adjust enrollment concerning athletics? I understand "the why", but one could argue that those disadvantages are no different on one end of the spectrum than the other.

I agree 100 percent, if it's fine for the bottom end of the spectrum it's fine for the top end of the spectrum.

[heimer]

Lets make this simple.

Someone produce numbers on the last time any of the following failed to advance to regionals:

Central Cass
Grafton
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Ryan
Dickinson Trinity
Beulah
Hazen
Watford City
Our Redeemers

Then, give me a percentage of year's they have advanced to regionals in the past 20 years, compared to other schools in their district.

Your eyes will be opened.

Until then, keep your eyes closed. The target isn't moving, you're just not looking at it. Can't help it if you refuse to aim.

Lets make this simple.

Someone produce numbers on the last time any of the following failed to advance to state for 3 consecutive seasons:

Bismarck
Fargo South
Minot
West Fargo
Bismack Century
Fargo North
Mandan
Grand Forks Red River

Then, give me a percentage of year's they have advanced to state in the past 20 years, compared to other schools in their class.

Your eyes will be opened.

Until then, keep your eyes closed. The target isn't moving, you're just not looking at it. Can't help it if you refuse to aim.




Using your logic, we should create a different class for the other Class A teams because these teams make state every year, and Devil's Lake and Turtle Mountain should not be forced to compete with them.

Thanks for making my argument, man. My expansion of Class A plan, touted for years, would address the very point you were trying to make light of. No longer would eight of the metro schools get in. No longer would four teams from a region get it. Now, you don't make your regional title game, you're out.

Still feel like arguing this point?

[balla45]

Yes. I would love to continue to argue. I think your opinion and mine differ in a major way. I do not think the Class A tournament would be better if teams that were not better than the Metro teams automatically qualified just because they are smaller. 3 classes with 3 titles I can live with. 3 classes with 2 titles seems pointless. If I am Minot of last year, I don't get to play in the state tournament, but Shiloh or Bishop Ryan might. And we are competing for the same title, even though I would beat either of those teams fairlu comfortably.

[The Schwab]

Yes. I would love to continue to argue. I think your opinion and mine differ in a major way. I do not think the Class A tournament would be better if teams that were not better than the Metro teams automatically qualified just because they are smaller. 3 classes with 3 titles I can live with. 3 classes with 2 titles seems pointless. If I am Minot of last year, I don't get to play in the state tournament, but Shiloh or Bishop Ryan might. And we are competing for the same title, even though I would beat either of those teams fairlu comfortably.

How about if you had the 4 A teams play for a title and the 4 AA teams play for a title, then have a "AA/A" championship game on the Saturday night.

[heimer]

Yeah, we went through that, and everyone crapped on it.

Division I on the top half of the bracket, title Friday night
Division II on the bottom half, title Friday night.

The whole thing on Saturday.

No one like that also.

Here's where Balla and I get together: 3 classes and 3 titles is best. But this myth that you can't have the B boys and girls tournaments combined in the same town needs to go away for it to happen. Then we get three weekends for three tournaments.

Otherwise, TV will mess it up.

It can be done, easily. Play the first round starting at 8:30, and play eight games. College tournaments do it and pull it off just fine. Halftime is warm up, then 10 minutes before the next game.

8:30, 10:15, 12:00, 1:45, 3:30, 5:15, 7:00, 8:45.

It's too easy.

Semis are on TV, all three classes.

If we can play a state title game at 9 in football, there is no reason this can't be done.

Can we please get this done?

[balla45]

I would rather have 3 titles, OR let's make a 4 day tourney. 16 total qualifiers. 8 on top, 8 on bottom. 8 represent AA and 8 represent A. Play it all the way out. I dislike adding a class but then making it so even a smaller portion of AA teams make state. I get the point that people think it is easy to make state in A, but A teams judge themselves on titles anyway.