zone in Junior High?

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zone in Junior High?

Postby 3499 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:12 am

I have been involved in junior high basketball for a few years now and it still annoys me when teams play zone. I personally believe it does not teach kids the fundamentals of basketball. i understand that in Junior high all around the state, you are gonna find different rules when it comes to press and zone defense. i just don't see the point in taking five kids and clogging the lane. It doesn't teach the defense anything as far as positioning and stance. It doesn't help the opponents (offense) who then have to have kids shoot 20 foot 3 pointers, when the kid doesn't have enough strength to shoot a 12 to 15 foot jumper. What are your opinions on this?
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:15 am

3499 wrote:I have been involved in junior high basketball for a few years now and it still annoys me when teams play zone. I personally believe it does not teach kids the fundamentals of basketball. i understand that in Junior high all around the state, you are gonna find different rules when it comes to press and zone defense. i just don't see the point in taking five kids and clogging the lane. It doesn't teach the defense anything as far as positioning and stance. It doesn't help the opponents (offense) who then have to have kids shoot 20 foot 3 pointers, when the kid doesn't have enough strength to shoot a 12 to 15 foot jumper. What are your opinions on this?


I know in our area of the state for JH games they don't allow zone defenses.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby d_fense » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:00 am

I have seen a lot of jr. high ball played all over the east side of the state. Never seen any zone being played. If it is seen a ref or coach tells a kid to find their man. It is usually a kid who is pretty weak basketball wise and is having a hard time finding their man.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby classB4ever » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:04 pm

3499 wrote:I have been involved in junior high basketball for a few years now and it still annoys me when teams play zone. I personally believe it does not teach kids the fundamentals of basketball. i understand that in Junior high all around the state, you are gonna find different rules when it comes to press and zone defense. i just don't see the point in taking five kids and clogging the lane. It doesn't teach the defense anything as far as positioning and stance. It doesn't help the opponents (offense) who then have to have kids shoot 20 foot 3 pointers, when the kid doesn't have enough strength to shoot a 12 to 15 foot jumper. What are your opinions on this?


IMO, playing a good zone defense is more difficult, physically, then playing man-man. Much more area to cover and less time for taking a break. Of course there are many factors in this, such as how active is the player you are guarding in man.
Generally, if kids are not up to speed with bb skills, they will have no better luck playing zone then playing man-man. The more talented kids understand help defense in man just as much as understanding positioning in zone. If the coaches are teaching it properly and using it as a strategy and not a bail out from teaching proper defensive positioning, stance, etc., then I don't think it is a problem.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby Sportsrube » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:49 pm

In our area we do not allow zones and only allow full court pressing in the last 2 minutes of each half. The problems we have are that the refs have a tough time with one kid playing a zone by standing in the middle of the lane while the other 4 play man. If the ref warns the kid to find their man, their coach says that they are just playing "help" defense. A lot of the refs in our area would like us to allow zones, but the vast majority of coaches are still saying no. I would like to see them allow more pressing in JH, but then some coaches will play a zone press and that brings up the whole zone thing again. It is a tough call, expecially when you have some coaches that push the envelope between "help" defense and zones.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:40 pm

3499 wrote:I have been involved in junior high basketball for a few years now and it still annoys me when teams play zone. I personally believe it does not teach kids the fundamentals of basketball. i understand that in Junior high all around the state, you are gonna find different rules when it comes to press and zone defense. i just don't see the point in taking five kids and clogging the lane. It doesn't teach the defense anything as far as positioning and stance. It doesn't help the opponents (offense) who then have to have kids shoot 20 foot 3 pointers, when the kid doesn't have enough strength to shoot a 12 to 15 foot jumper. What are your opinions on this?


Personally wish they would disallow the 3-point shot in 7th-8th grade. Reasoning:
1. Shooting form is damaged due lack of strength. Start getting "crankers".
2. Do not learn how to move without the ball. Draw an "x" on the 3-point line and that's where they stay.
3. Doesn't allow them to develop a good triple threat move and to create off the dribble.
Know it won't happen because people like to watch the 3's, but wish coaches of younger kids would be a little stricter on this. Opinions?
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby winner-within » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:22 pm

I love the Zone theory at any age, its a Major part of BBall from the beginning to the end of time and their careers, taking a zone out as an option at any age is like taking the Skates off of an hockey player and having them play Hockey....If they can shoot a three effortlessly (have a player who has been shooting them since 1st grade and drains them an a regular basis, which is abnormal I know but because he can I let him) then let them incorporate it into their game.


If they had said 3 year olds cant learn how to play Golf then we wouldn't have ever had a Tiger Woods.....You cant recognize gifted if you treat them all the same....thats dictating an Athlete's future, and there's way to much of that going on in ND.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby irisheel » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:35 am

If they had said 3 year olds cant learn how to play Golf then we wouldn't have ever had a Tiger Woods.....You cant recognize gifted if you treat them all the same....thats dictating an Athlete's future, and there's way to much of that going on in ND.


Are you teaching Tiger Woods to try and drive the green at 3 years old?? Or are you having him chip and putt?? I think this is the same thing as kids playing zone defense at the JH level. I don't think zone defense is a fundamental skill that JH kids need to learn and MOST don't get the concept, IMO.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby winner-within » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:00 am

irisheel wrote:
If they had said 3 year olds cant learn how to play Golf then we wouldn't have ever had a Tiger Woods.....You cant recognize gifted if you treat them all the same....thats dictating an Athlete's future, and there's way to much of that going on in ND.


Are you teaching Tiger Woods to try and drive the green at 3 years old?? Or are you having him chip and putt?? I think this is the same thing as kids playing zone defense at the JH level. I don't think zone defense is a fundamental skill that JH kids need to learn and MOST don't get the concept, IMO.


Actually when he (Tiger) made his debut on the Johnny Carson Show (at 3 years old) He was showing off his Drive....which is a Key component to the game of Golf....

so you take a 12,13,14 year old Kid and say NOPE!, you cant play zone even though it is a key component of Basketball....and now they have never played a zone since they were 5,6,7, years old and they have only 4 years of basket ball left.
Believe me Just because you have played 7 years of Man to Man (if everyone follows the no zone concept through the grade years ) does not mean your ready and able to play a good tight Zone for your next 4 years in JV and V if asked to.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby classB4ever » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:49 am

IMO, let the coaches, coach. When the kids are younger, the parents should explain and teach their kids what their range should be. At the 7th and 8th grade level, some kids can shoot a 3 without a problem and some kids can't. Same goes for playing a zone. Let the coaches determine what they should and shouldn't do. 2 cents.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby irisheel » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:00 pm

Actually when he (Tiger) made his debut on the Johnny Carson Show (at 3 years old) He was showing off his Drive....which is a Key component to the game of Golf....

so you take a 12,13,14 year old Kid and say NOPE!, you cant play zone even though it is a key component of Basketball....and now they have never played a zone since they were 5,6,7, years old and they have only 4 years of basket ball left.
Believe me Just because you have played 7 years of Man to Man (if everyone follows the no zone concept through the grade years ) does not mean your ready and able to play a good tight Zone for your next 4 years in JV and V if asked to.


I agree on some points here and I don't mean to be argumentative. And mostly agree with ClassB. In our area, in which I ref JH games, we don't see it. Coaches for the most part just don't believe in it at this age. Again, not trying to push, just stating my opinion.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby scoobyx2 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:33 pm

Generally, in jr high the zone is discouraged, and coaches try to win with 5 quick guards who will pick and roll, and shoot layups all game. Developing post players with post moves is non-existent, and outside shooting is not important. In fact, many times having a tall center who isn't as mobile as some of the guards is a disadvantage on the court when a man-to-man defense is the only option. That isn't real basketball.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby Hinsa » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:48 pm

I've been coaching Junior High BB for quite a few years, and my opinion on zones has changed.

District 3 currently does not allow zones or double teams. You can hedge on ball screens. You can press, man-to-man, if the game is within 10 points either way. You can play help defense and double the ball in the post.

You might ask why can't a team press if they are down more than 10 and the answer to that is we've had guys start pressing when the scrubs were playing for the team that is ahead. This lead to coaches being hesitant to put their scrubs in which defeats the purpose of all kids learning and improving.

We've also had unscrupulous coaches abuse the no double-team rule. A while back there was one team that had 2 players and 3 guys who could walk and chew gum but that's about it. So the coach would put the 3 poor players way on one side of the court and go two on two on the other side of the court. When my defensive players would try to help out on the 2 good players when they went to the basket, I was told I was not following the no double team rule. That certainly lead to some lengthy discussion at the district meeting to stop that kind of nonsense.

I used to believe in the philosphy of no zones in junior high, but I have changed on that. Here's why. These kids, especially the 8th graders, are one year away from playing JV or even varsity ball where they need to know how to play a zone and a zone press. They get to be freshmen and they have no clue how to do it. Also, it is difficult to administer the no double-team rule when you play help defense inside and hedge on screens.

I would just as soon let the kids start to learn zone principles on defense and learn how to attack it on offense. If you get good ball movement you really don't have to settle for 3-pointers. You can find good shots against a zone just as much as you can a man-to-man. As far as zones not teaching kids how to play defense, a zone where kids don't hustle and move and guard people is a crappy zone. If they are going to play a good zone they are learning good defensive principles.

That's an old guy's take on this issue. 8)
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby Flip » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:07 pm

I agree with Hinsa in that most freshman are clueless about playing a zone defense because they've never been taught it. On the other hand if you allow zones you have to spend a lot more practice time preparing for that when JH kids would probably be better off practicing fundamentals. I think it can be a lot to remember for a JH kid to remember a man offense and probably at least 2 different zone offenses. At my HS we have a split season with the JH girls playing November and December and the boys January and February. So we have a lot of games jammed into two months, JH can't practice on Wednesdays so there are weeks when our JH kids only get one practice.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby Sportsrube » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:09 pm

Well said Hinsa - I am moving away from the "no zones" idea for many of the same reasons you stated. Someone recommended at our last District meeting that we allow JH teams to play zone and use a zone press for the 2nd & 4th qtrs and overtime, but that was shot down as being to difficult to administer. (not sure I understand that reason, but whatever) I think in the future you will see more areas allowing zones and zone presses in JH, JMO.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby winner-within » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:57 am

Hinsa wrote:I've been coaching Junior High BB for quite a few years, and my opinion on zones has changed.

District 3 currently does not allow zones or double teams. You can hedge on ball screens. You can press, man-to-man, if the game is within 10 points either way. You can play help defense and double the ball in the post.

You might ask why can't a team press if they are down more than 10 and the answer to that is we've had guys start pressing when the scrubs were playing for the team that is ahead. This lead to coaches being hesitant to put their scrubs in which defeats the purpose of all kids learning and improving.

We've also had unscrupulous coaches abuse the no double-team rule. A while back there was one team that had 2 players and 3 guys who could walk and chew gum but that's about it. So the coach would put the 3 poor players way on one side of the court and go two on two on the other side of the court. When my defensive players would try to help out on the 2 good players when they went to the basket, I was told I was not following the no double team rule. That certainly lead to some lengthy discussion at the district meeting to stop that kind of nonsense.

I used to believe in the philosphy of no zones in junior high, but I have changed on that. Here's why. These kids, especially the 8th graders, are one year away from playing JV or even varsity ball where they need to know how to play a zone and a zone press. They get to be freshmen and they have no clue how to do it. Also, it is difficult to administer the no double-team rule when you play help defense inside and hedge on screens.

I would just as soon let the kids start to learn zone principles on defense and learn how to attack it on offense. If you get good ball movement you really don't have to settle for 3-pointers. You can find good shots against a zone just as much as you can a man-to-man. As far as zones not teaching kids how to play defense, a zone where kids don't hustle and move and guard people is a crappy zone. If they are going to play a good zone they are learning good defensive principles.

That's an old guy's take on this issue. 8)


Thanks for repeating me....I still like my take better.....I may be older than you....but I bet I can run faster and Jump Higher!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:44 am

It also depends on how the JH coach teaches a zone. I remember way back when I was in JH and we always loved playing a zone because we could stand around and rest a bit on defense. It was an eye opener when we got to be freshmen and learned that playing a zone was just as much work as man to man and chaning your mindset to make yourself work harder on the shifts in a zone. Wouldn't have been any harder to learn as freshmen if we would have never played a single minute of zone defense in JH.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby winner-within » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:49 am

exactly...its also nice to set up in a half court trap press and fold back to a 2/3 zone thats what I do!!

It was and eye opener, or it wouldn't have been a big deal???
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby ndfan » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:13 am

winner-within wrote:exactly...its also nice to set up in a half court trap press and fold back to a 2/3 zone thats what I do!!

It was and eye opener, or it wouldn't have been a big deal???


They let you coach in Cavalier??? What has the world come to?? :mrgreen: I kid, I kid.

Why can't zone defenses just be shown in practice every once in a while at that age, so when they do get to high school they have A idea whats going on? I would think if you were a high school coach you would love the younger kids to come up and be more fundamentally sound then to know how to run a zone defense. If the kids are fundamentally sound then thats less time the head coach has to spend on fundamental drills and he can work more on his offensive and defensive sets in practice. (Just my opinion)
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby classB4ever » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:55 am

ndfan wrote:
winner-within wrote:exactly...its also nice to set up in a half court trap press and fold back to a 2/3 zone thats what I do!!

It was and eye opener, or it wouldn't have been a big deal???


They let you coach in Cavalier??? What has the world come to?? :mrgreen: I kid, I kid.

Why can't zone defenses just be shown in practice every once in a while at that age, so when they do get to high school they have A idea whats going on? I would think if you were a high school coach you would love the younger kids to come up and be more fundamentally sound then to know how to run a zone defense. If the kids are fundamentally sound then thats less time the head coach has to spend on fundamental drills and he can work more on his offensive and defensive sets in practice. (Just my opinion)


It would probably help but it's still all about repetition for these kids to learn. IMO, it really comes down to the skill level of players entering junior high (same could be said at any level). If you have a group of kids that have been playing tournaments together since 4th grade and are well on their way fundamental wise, then a coach has the opportunity in practice to teach more things rather then spending practices teaching fundamentals. If you have a large discrepancy in talent, then most coaches are going to stick to teaching fundamentals. That's why I believe you have to leave up to each coach's discretion as what they think best fits their team. I coached a physically small team and used zone against large teams at times just so we could be in a position to rebound. Once again, a coach should be able to have the ability to use it as a strategy to compete. 2 cents.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby winner-within » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:58 am

A fundamentally sound 2/3 Zone is what Basketball defense is......NS Executes it in perfection...Grafton went man to man and it seemed like an Achilles Heel in reality.

Bottom line is, every Coach has their forte...I like a Solid 2/3 Zone...and not to rest either, to avoid penetration and control the defensive boards. JMO
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby Hinsa » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:10 pm

Winner, I have no doubt you can run faster and jump higher than me. But older.....let's just say I get mail from AARP on a regular basis and I can use the senior menu in some places.

Anywho, I wouldn't force anyone to play a zone defense, but if a coach has kids who can handle more, let them learn more and help prepare them for the next level. If a coach is putting in a zone just because he has one big kid who can clog the lane and have the rest of the kids stand around, then I wholeheartedly agree that playing zone in that situation is a disservice to the kids.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby winner-within » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:45 pm

Hinsa wrote:Winner, I have no doubt you can run faster and jump higher than me. But older.....let's just say I get mail from AARP on a regular basis and I can use the senior menu in some places.

Anywho, I wouldn't force anyone to play a zone defense, but if a coach has kids who can handle more, let them learn more and help prepare them for the next level. If a coach is putting in a zone just because he has one big kid who can clog the lane and have the rest of the kids stand around, then I wholeheartedly agree that playing zone in that situation is a disservice to the kids.



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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby sportsking » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:36 pm

As a coach in JH I believe that if the kids are talented enough, it is correct. You can teach them more. My problem is, kids coming from 5th and 6th grade have not been worked with enough on the basics. I also believe that it should be a decision of the AD, jh coach, and jv, varsity coaches on what the program would like to cover. I have worked close with the jv, varsity coaches on what is lacking, and what direction they are headed. I also have had it were the 8th grade is way above what the 7th grade is. The 1 thing I would like to see, is games, more games, and set it up for district tourney's for these kids. Just having 10 to 12 games and done is not enough. Why do AD's not get together with each other and create more for the jh levels? I have A group of 8th graders that would love to play 28 games like the varsity. They can play zone, but prefer man to man. Also, the fast break is nice, but try to tell them to set an offense up and learn to work it that way once in awhile.
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Re: zone in Junior High?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:42 pm

sportsking wrote:As a coach in JH I believe that if the kids are talented enough, it is correct. You can teach them more. My problem is, kids coming from 5th and 6th grade have not been worked with enough on the basics. I also believe that it should be a decision of the AD, jh coach, and jv, varsity coaches on what the program would like to cover. I have worked close with the jv, varsity coaches on what is lacking, and what direction they are headed. I also have had it were the 8th grade is way above what the 7th grade is. The 1 thing I would like to see, is games, more games, a Why do AD's not get together with each other and create more for the jh levels? I have A group of 8th graders that would love to play 28 games like the varsity.nd set it up for district tourney's for these kids. Just having 10 to 12 games and done is not enough. They can play zone, but prefer man to man. Also, the fast break is nice, but try to tell them to set an offense up and learn to work it that way once in awhile.


Because the NDHSAA sets up this rule...and I believe its been upped to 15 games allowed during a season.
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