Junior High Basketball

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Junior High Basketball

Postby Sportsrube » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:01 pm

In our area, JH teams are not allowed to play zone and they can only press in the last 2 minutes of each half if the game is within 10 points. Do other areas of the state follow these rules too? I have mixed feelings on both of the rules, I see the point of each, but at the same time I see Freshman who will rebound a ball and tuck it on a hip because they are used to the no press rule and then they end up getting it taken away. I know that a good man-to-man looks like a zone (if you have good back side help positioning) and a good zone can look like a man-to-man, but I am not entirely sold on the no zone rule or the pressing rule. Do other states follow these rules too? Also, it makes it very hard for officials - is it a zone or a really sagging man-to-man? Did he steal the ball right before the player crossed the half line or right after, etc.... (I have had a few officials tell me they wish they would let them play zone and press because it would make their job easier.)
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Flip » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:05 pm

Anything and everything is allowed in region 2. From my observations you rarely see zone. Full court man-to-man is fairly common.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:14 pm

I can see these rules at the elementary level, but in my opinion at the JH level everything should be allowed. I ref a lot of JH in Region 4 and we allow press and zone.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby The Schwab » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:20 pm

IMO I would say full court man is a fine thing to play at that level. I don't know about full court zone pressing.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Sportsrube » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:31 pm

The Schwab wrote:IMO I would say full court man is a fine thing to play at that level. I don't know about full court zone pressing.


So if they trap out of a man-to-man press is that now a zone press?
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby The Schwab » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:37 pm

Sportsrube wrote:
The Schwab wrote:IMO I would say full court man is a fine thing to play at that level. I don't know about full court zone pressing.


So if they trap out of a man-to-man press is that now a zone press?


I don't have a problem with a single trap out of a man to man press, but most coaches that would say "it's just a man trap" would actually be playing a 1-2-2.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby d_fense » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:41 pm

Flip wrote:Anything and everything is allowed in region 2. From my observations you rarely see zone. Full court man-to-man is fairly common.


This is not true in all of region 2. Some region 2 schools allow zone, some do not. Some you can press, others don't allow press or only at certain times in the game or while the score is within a certain score.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Sportsrube » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:48 pm

The Schwab wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:
The Schwab wrote:IMO I would say full court man is a fine thing to play at that level. I don't know about full court zone pressing.


So if they trap out of a man-to-man press is that now a zone press?


I don't have a problem with a single trap out of a man to man press, but most coaches that would say "it's just a man trap" would actually be playing a 1-2-2.



That is how I see it too. But if an official calls it a zone press the coach would flip out! I am leaning on just letting teams play just to make it easier on an official. Last week I watched a game where a big kid (did not move well) never left the middle of the lane on defense. Opposing team went 5 out and he still stayed in the lane - offensive coach yelling it's an illegal zone, defensive coach saying he doesn't have to guard a kid who can't shoot from the 3 point line and he is giving help defense. Put the 2 officials in a heck of a spot - they talked it over and let the kid stay in the lane.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:09 pm

Sportsrube wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:
The Schwab wrote:IMO I would say full court man is a fine thing to play at that level. I don't know about full court zone pressing.


So if they trap out of a man-to-man press is that now a zone press?


I don't have a problem with a single trap out of a man to man press, but most coaches that would say "it's just a man trap" would actually be playing a 1-2-2.



That is how I see it too. But if an official calls it a zone press the coach would flip out! I am leaning on just letting teams play just to make it easier on an official. Last week I watched a game where a big kid (did not move well) never left the middle of the lane on defense. Opposing team went 5 out and he still stayed in the lane - offensive coach yelling it's an illegal zone, defensive coach saying he doesn't have to guard a kid who can't shoot from the 3 point line and he is giving help defense. Put the 2 officials in a heck of a spot - they talked it over and let the kid stay in the lane.


This situation would be legal, in my eyes, as an official of that level
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby sportsnut5 » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:36 pm

As a high school girls coach, I have had to spend way more time teaching fundamentals the past few years. Our region went to you can play anything at the junior high level. Now, the JH coaches, are preparing for 23 zone, 1-3-1 half court traps, run and jump press, diamond and 1 press, 221 press, and you name how many others. This preparation kills the amount of time coaches spend on fundamentals at that level. Parents look at the athletic, deep teams that are just dominating, and think all teams should play that way. Next thing you know you have games with 75 turnovers, bunch of fouls, and a few layups. Nobody gets better in games like that.

In our program, I have to constantly tell my junior high coaches I want sound man to man fundamentals, because they have parents wanting more. We are not a big school so at the 8th grade level we have 7 kids or so, 2-3 that will play high school varsity basketball someday. We play schools with 12-14 kids at each grade level and get destroyed by those schools. They press the heck out of us, the girls aren't strong enough to throw some of the diagonal passes needed, and nobody develops. The dominant JH teams' layups go away in time and they can't score in the halfcourt. Our two or three athletic kids eventually get to play with the 2 or 3 that were in the grade above and below, and now we have a fair fight. Only problem is the skill sets for both teams are behind due to the bad habits learned pressing and playing out of control at the lower levels.

Some teams just have great athletes that can learn and develop at any time. I am not sure they need to be pressing all over the floor against teams that cannot pass, dribble, or catch. That teaches them poor habits and does not ready them for the next level either.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Flip » Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:55 pm

d_fense wrote:
Flip wrote:Anything and everything is allowed in region 2. From my observations you rarely see zone. Full court man-to-man is fairly common.


This is not true in all of region 2. Some region 2 schools allow zone, some do not. Some you can press, others don't allow press or only at certain times in the game or while the score is within a certain score.

This was the last update I received. At the time it was sent to all AD's in the region.


REGION 2
7th & 8th Grade / Junior High Basketball Rules
Revised – February 26th, 2016

1. Zone and man-to-man defenses will be allowed in either the full or half court.

2. Zone and man-to-man pressing will be allowed by both teams until a point
when one team is ahead by 15 or more points. At this time only the team that
is down by 15 or more points can press.

3. Regulation size basketballs will be used for games.

4. All other high school basketball rules will be used.


• These rules apply to ALL school sponsored basketball games scheduled between Region 2 schools.

• It is the responsibility of each respective Athletic Director to ensure compliance of these rules by both Junior High coaches and game officials.

• A copy of these rules should be made available at the scorer’s table prior to each contest involving Region 2 schools.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Flip » Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:05 pm

sportsnut5 wrote:As a high school girls coach, I have had to spend way more time teaching fundamentals the past few years. Our region went to you can play anything at the junior high level. Now, the JH coaches, are preparing for 23 zone, 1-3-1 half court traps, run and jump press, diamond and 1 press, 221 press, and you name how many others. This preparation kills the amount of time coaches spend on fundamentals at that level. Parents look at the athletic, deep teams that are just dominating, and think all teams should play that way. Next thing you know you have games with 75 turnovers, bunch of fouls, and a few layups. Nobody gets better in games like that.

This was my concern as well when region 2 went to allowing zones, but I have rarely seen these defenses played. In the last few years, I can't even remember a team playing zone except on BLOB plays. Teaching that stuff at the JH is difficult IMO. Even at the JV level if you find a team that can run a 1-3-1 or a FC 1-2-2 it can be rough for the opposing team.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby BasketballMind » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:08 pm

Flip wrote:
d_fense wrote:
Flip wrote:Anything and everything is allowed in region 2. From my observations you rarely see zone. Full court man-to-man is fairly common.


This is not true in all of region 2. Some region 2 schools allow zone, some do not. Some you can press, others don't allow press or only at certain times in the game or while the score is within a certain score.

This was the last update I received. At the time it was sent to all AD's in the region.


REGION 2
7th & 8th Grade / Junior High Basketball Rules
Revised – February 26th, 2016

1. Zone and man-to-man defenses will be allowed in either the full or half court.

2. Zone and man-to-man pressing will be allowed by both teams until a point
when one team is ahead by 15 or more points. At this time only the team that
is down by 15 or more points can press.

3. Regulation size basketballs will be used for games.

4. All other high school basketball rules will be used.


• These rules apply to ALL school sponsored basketball games scheduled between Region 2 schools.

• It is the responsibility of each respective Athletic Director to ensure compliance of these rules by both Junior High coaches and game officials.

• A copy of these rules should be made available at the scorer’s table prior to each contest involving Region 2 schools.


This is exactly right. If the two coaches agree to something before the game then they can change these rules if they want. I'm not a big fan of pressing or zone defense at the junior high level, but I understand it at least by 8th grade. What I dislike about zone defense are coaches that teach a lazy 2-3 zone against a team that you know can't shoot you out of it. Your players are getting worse and the team you're playing couldn't just as well stayed home. You can usually tell in warm-ups of a JH game some feel for what the game might be like. When you play teams that are obviously low in talent/size and you sit in a stationary 2-3 zone (not rotating, bumping guys to the corners, fronting post players) the entire game you're doing these players no good.

JH basketball is about player development and lazy coaches that do that stuff are why we have an issue with kids in HS not being prepared for the rest of the game. I also love this one, you've got a game where one team has built a decent lead (20-25 points) and the team ahead pulls out their stronger players, best ballhandler, and are letting his other guys get some more minutes. So that's when the other team leaves their starters in and starts full-court pressing. Coaches that do that need to get out of the sport or be given a little guidance from their AD in a little coaching etiquette.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Sportsrube » Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:22 pm

This has been discussed in another post, but it deserves to be brought up again. So many JH and Elementary coaches are being pressured by parents and village idiots to win, win, win and nothing else matters. So in order to keep their job, coaches do what they need to in order to win and skill development gets lost. This is why you see a number of teams where the offense is run for only 2 kids to shoot the ball, they sit in a lazy zone because they know they will win if they do, etc..... I have seen JH coaches that have 15 different plays but 75% of their kids can't dribble with their weak hand and have terrible shooting form. A number of the coaches think X's and O's matter more than fundamentals at the lower levels and part of it is due to the pressure from parents and village idiots to win every game.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby popefro » Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:15 pm

In the situation 'Sportsrube' describes where the team went five out and the defensive post never left the lane- please explain to me that if that's not zone defense then what the heck is??? I guarantee ya (granted this isn't the NBA) that wouldn't have flown in the NBA when they had the 'no zone' rules.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby BasketballMind » Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:10 am

Sportsrube wrote:This has been discussed in another post, but it deserves to be brought up again. So many JH and Elementary coaches are being pressured by parents and village idiots to win, win, win and nothing else matters. So in order to keep their job, coaches do what they need to in order to win and skill development gets lost. This is why you see a number of teams where the offense is run for only 2 kids to shoot the ball, they sit in a lazy zone because they know they will win if they do, etc..... I have seen JH coaches that have 15 different plays but 75% of their kids can't dribble with their weak hand and have terrible shooting form. A number of the coaches think X's and O's matter more than fundamentals at the lower levels and part of it is due to the pressure from parents and village idiots to win every game.


If your athletic director allows the parents to get a coach fired at the junior high level over wins and losses, you've got a problem. The parents need to be told at the parent meeting (If you're not having a parent meeting, have a parent meeting) that Junior High is about player development, learning to play hard, and that you're not going to lose sleep over wins and losses if your players are improving. If you are at least up front with them and give them an idea of what you're doing and why, it solves a lot of these issues. But, you need to have an Athletic Director that's on the same page. Sadly, there are probably some ADs that judge the success of a coach based on wins and losses.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:24 pm

BasketballMind wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:This has been discussed in another post, but it deserves to be brought up again. So many JH and Elementary coaches are being pressured by parents and village idiots to win, win, win and nothing else matters. So in order to keep their job, coaches do what they need to in order to win and skill development gets lost. This is why you see a number of teams where the offense is run for only 2 kids to shoot the ball, they sit in a lazy zone because they know they will win if they do, etc..... I have seen JH coaches that have 15 different plays but 75% of their kids can't dribble with their weak hand and have terrible shooting form. A number of the coaches think X's and O's matter more than fundamentals at the lower levels and part of it is due to the pressure from parents and village idiots to win every game.


If your athletic director allows the parents to get a coach fired at the junior high level over wins and losses, you've got a problem. The parents need to be told at the parent meeting (If you're not having a parent meeting, have a parent meeting) that Junior High is about player development, learning to play hard, and that you're not going to lose sleep over wins and losses if your players are improving. If you are at least up front with them and give them an idea of what you're doing and why, it solves a lot of these issues. But, you need to have an Athletic Director that's on the same page. Sadly, there are probably some ADs that judge the success of a coach based on wins and losses.


I don't think the issue is with AD's, it is with parents who don't care what the AD says and they keep bitching and yakking within the community that finally the coach has had enough and quits. Or you have a parent who "coaches" a traveling team and has some success so they think they are the 2nd coming of Phil Jackson and are a better coach because they "win". The vast majority of problems with JH/HS sports are some of the parents.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby BasketballMind » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:08 am

Sportsrube wrote:
I don't think the issue is with AD's, it is with parents who don't care what the AD says and they keep bitching and yakking within the community that finally the coach has had enough and quits. Or you have a parent who "coaches" a traveling team and has some success so they think they are the 2nd coming of Phil Jackson and are a better coach because they "win". The vast majority of problems with JH/HS sports are some of the parents.


That's a very good point. There are some communities that have very toxic situations with parents. Friends of mine who coach have told me stories about what they hear from parents. Blows my mind. It happens in every town at some level, but a lot of it is people griping from a barstool or making snide comments in the crowd. Once it becomes a call to action, that's a problem. The travel team take is spot on. And what's funny about is this: Billy's dad doesn't just take the 8th grade team to the grand am and they start to look like the Showtime Lakers. Billy's dad hand-picks 2-3 of the strongest 8th graders, they link up with 2-3 strong players from another town, and then they add 2-3 strong players from another town.

So now, you've got 8-9 players, all studs from different teams, you slap the word elite on their shorts, they go out and destroy everybody, and everyone is happy. With that many good players and the perfect amount to sub, nobody has issues with playing time, the coach looks like a genius because he's only working with stud players, so all they "practice" are set plays.

He doesn't have 13 players of various skill levels to develop.

3 of which never played basketball before but they wanted to try it.

Another 3-4 who can't dribble with their left hand and can't dribble with their head up.

3 more are okay players, but you have to constantly work with them on their shot from, ball rotation on the shot, and fundamentals of their feet.

Then you have the 2-3 players that are your strongest. The ones that play most of the year. They've gone to camps, they go to your open gyms, their parents bring them up to the gym weekly to get some shots up. You've got to work with them too so they can get to the next level.

And on top of that you've got to run 30+ practices with all of them, find a way for them all to get on the floor, try to be competitive, and deal with 26+ parents/step parents that all have different personalities and philosophies on the game. The ignorance of some parents boggles my mind. And in their defense, there are times when the JH coach at a school is a fill-in hire because they have no one in these small towns willing to do it. So it's not always on parents, but there are plenty of them that have scared off good coaches from continuing to do it, because it's not worth the headache.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:16 am

BasketballMind wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:
I don't think the issue is with AD's, it is with parents who don't care what the AD says and they keep bitching and yakking within the community that finally the coach has had enough and quits. Or you have a parent who "coaches" a traveling team and has some success so they think they are the 2nd coming of Phil Jackson and are a better coach because they "win". The vast majority of problems with JH/HS sports are some of the parents.


That's a very good point. There are some communities that have very toxic situations with parents. Friends of mine who coach have told me stories about what they hear from parents. Blows my mind. It happens in every town at some level, but a lot of it is people griping from a barstool or making snide comments in the crowd. Once it becomes a call to action, that's a problem. The travel team take is spot on. And what's funny about is this: Billy's dad doesn't just take the 8th grade team to the grand am and they start to look like the Showtime Lakers. Billy's dad hand-picks 2-3 of the strongest 8th graders, they link up with 2-3 strong players from another town, and then they add 2-3 strong players from another town.

So now, you've got 8-9 players, all studs from different teams, you slap the word elite on their shorts, they go out and destroy everybody, and everyone is happy. With that many good players and the perfect amount to sub, nobody has issues with playing time, the coach looks like a genius because he's only working with stud players, so all they "practice" are set plays.

He doesn't have 13 players of various skill levels to develop.

3 of which never played basketball before but they wanted to try it.

Another 3-4 who can't dribble with their left hand and can't dribble with their head up.

3 more are okay players, but you have to constantly work with them on their shot from, ball rotation on the shot, and fundamentals of their feet.

Then you have the 2-3 players that are your strongest. The ones that play most of the year. They've gone to camps, they go to your open gyms, their parents bring them up to the gym weekly to get some shots up. You've got to work with them too so they can get to the next level.

And on top of that you've got to run 30+ practices with all of them, find a way for them all to get on the floor, try to be competitive, and deal with 26+ parents/step parents that all have different personalities and philosophies on the game. The ignorance of some parents boggles my mind. And in their defense, there are times when the JH coach at a school is a fill-in hire because they have no one in these small towns willing to do it. So it's not always on parents, but there are plenty of them that have scared off good coaches from continuing to do it, because it's not worth the headache.


Spot on with all of this.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:09 am

BasketballMind wrote:
That's a very good point. There are some communities that have very toxic situations with parents. Friends of mine who coach have told me stories about what they hear from parents. Blows my mind. It happens in every town at some level, but a lot of it is people griping from a barstool or making snide comments in the crowd. Once it becomes a call to action, that's a problem. The travel team take is spot on. And what's funny about is this: Billy's dad doesn't just take the 8th grade team to the grand am and they start to look like the Showtime Lakers. Billy's dad hand-picks 2-3 of the strongest 8th graders, they link up with 2-3 strong players from another town, and then they add 2-3 strong players from another town.

So now, you've got 8-9 players, all studs from different teams, you slap the word elite on their shorts, they go out and destroy everybody, and everyone is happy. With that many good players and the perfect amount to sub, nobody has issues with playing time, the coach looks like a genius because he's only working with stud players, so all they "practice" are set plays.


Was part of coaching young traveling teams for years. We always tried to field a team from our school only. Problem is, could never get enough kids to do it. Many excuses for not wanting to, but generally it turned out that only the best players wanted to put in the extra time (Please note: these tourneys are expensive and hotel rooms, etc. aren't cheap, so not everyone can afford it). So ended up having to get kids from other schools just to participate in the after year tourneys. Generally they were the best players from those schools as well. Lo and behold, would hear from community how "terrible" it was to not include all the kids. Tried to explain that we asked all, but to no avail. Amazing when next bb year came along, there was more of a gap between talent level of players. In our instance, the parents doing the griping are the same ones that had children who didn't want to participate after the season. Always another side to the story.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby justplayalready » Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:32 am

ndlionsfan wrote:
BasketballMind wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:
I don't think the issue is with AD's, it is with parents who don't care what the AD says and they keep bitching and yakking within the community that finally the coach has had enough and quits. Or you have a parent who "coaches" a traveling team and has some success so they think they are the 2nd coming of Phil Jackson and are a better coach because they "win". The vast majority of problems with JH/HS sports are some of the parents.


That's a very good point. There are some communities that have very toxic situations with parents. Friends of mine who coach have told me stories about what they hear from parents. Blows my mind. It happens in every town at some level, but a lot of it is people griping from a barstool or making snide comments in the crowd. Once it becomes a call to action, that's a problem. The travel team take is spot on. And what's funny about is this: Billy's dad doesn't just take the 8th grade team to the grand am and they start to look like the Showtime Lakers. Billy's dad hand-picks 2-3 of the strongest 8th graders, they link up with 2-3 strong players from another town, and then they add 2-3 strong players from another town.

So now, you've got 8-9 players, all studs from different teams, you slap the word elite on their shorts, they go out and destroy everybody, and everyone is happy. With that many good players and the perfect amount to sub, nobody has issues with playing time, the coach looks like a genius because he's only working with stud players, so all they "practice" are set plays.

He doesn't have 13 players of various skill levels to develop.

3 of which never played basketball before but they wanted to try it.

Another 3-4 who can't dribble with their left hand and can't dribble with their head up.

3 more are okay players, but you have to constantly work with them on their shot from, ball rotation on the shot, and fundamentals of their feet.

Then you have the 2-3 players that are your strongest. The ones that play most of the year. They've gone to camps, they go to your open gyms, their parents bring them up to the gym weekly to get some shots up. You've got to work with them too so they can get to the next level.

And on top of that you've got to run 30+ practices with all of them, find a way for them all to get on the floor, try to be competitive, and deal with 26+ parents/step parents that all have different personalities and philosophies on the game. The ignorance of some parents boggles my mind. And in their defense, there are times when the JH coach at a school is a fill-in hire because they have no one in these small towns willing to do it. So it's not always on parents, but there are plenty of them that have scared off good coaches from continuing to do it, because it's not worth the headache.


Spot on with all of this.


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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby BasketballMind » Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:51 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:Was part of coaching young traveling teams for years. We always tried to field a team from our school only. Problem is, could never get enough kids to do it. Many excuses for not wanting to, but generally it turned out that only the best players wanted to put in the extra time (Please note: these tourneys are expensive and hotel rooms, etc. aren't cheap, so not everyone can afford it). So ended up having to get kids from other schools just to participate in the after year tourneys. Generally they were the best players from those schools as well. Lo and behold, would hear from community how "terrible" it was to not include all the kids. Tried to explain that we asked all, but to no avail. Amazing when next bb year came along, there was more of a gap between talent level of players. In our instance, the parents doing the griping are the same ones that had children who didn't want to participate after the season. Always another side to the story.


Very good points here. There are always scenarios where you want to do the right things, but due to cost, commitment, etc. it doesn't happen. What I'm talking about are when parents of the kids at young ages
(5th - 9th grade) prioritize finding the studs from the other teams to do their own version of a "super-team" when they have teammates that would and could play. I don't even like it when high school players split up and play with their buddies when they still have HS games ahead of them. After your senior year, go ahead and team up with your fellow seniors and make a super team. Play with your teammates otherwise.
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby Baller » Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:58 pm

When I played you couldn't play with more that three people from the same high school. I think it is great to play with other people. I learned the most playing with other kids and for other coaches than the same ones all the time. It's what challenges you to grow. Those are some of my best memories. Some of my favorite times were when everyone went to a day camp, you drew for teams and just played. That's where kids learn instinct and how to "play". Not running the same offense with the same kids for 6 years...
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Re: Junior High Basketball

Postby BasketballMind » Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:39 pm

Baller wrote:When I played you couldn't play with more that three people from the same high school. I think it is great to play with other people. I learned the most playing with other kids and for other coaches than the same ones all the time. It's what challenges you to grow. Those are some of my best memories. Some of my favorite times were when everyone went to a day camp, you drew for teams and just played. That's where kids learn instinct and how to "play". Not running the same offense with the same kids for 6 years...


Different coaches are great for kids, learning different styles of play, but you also need guys to learn to play together. I get being burnt out on what you described. The answer is usually in middle somewhere. The extreme of “pay for play, ND Elite Super Awesome Super Team” route isn’t great until they’re a little older, but having someone’s dad take the same kids to the same tournaments running the same offense isn’t getting much either. It’s usually circumstantial.
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