Three Class System or Super Region

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Three Class System or Super Region

Postby Sorenson23 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:06 pm

Anyone's input which would come first a third class of basketball or the other six regions go to a super region format. Feel free to discuss on if either a third class or a super region format is coming? And how soon?

Make no sense to have 5 classes for Football: AAA, AA, A, 9 Man, & 6 Man, but two classes for basketball: Class A & B. There's more basketball teams than football teams.

If we get a third class in the future it should be Class AA, A, & B, instead of A, B, & C
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby Sportsrube » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:01 am

The 3 Class system has been discussed ad nauseum on this site. It is not going to happen in my lifetime. The Super Region should happen and I believe will within the next 5 seasons. It makes no sense to play a District Tournament over 3 days to eliminate a couple of teams. It is also kind of ridiculous to me to see teams in a Regional Tournament as a #4 seed with a losing record. The Super Region to me makes way more sense with the top team hosting and only the top 4 getting to the "Region site".
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby Flip » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:32 am

Sorenson23 wrote:Anyone's input which would come first a third class of basketball or the other six regions go to a super region format. Feel free to discuss on if either a third class or a super region format is coming? And how soon?

Make no sense to have 5 classes for Football: AAA, AA, A, 9 Man, & 6 Man, but two classes for basketball: Class A & B. There's more basketball teams than football teams.

If we get a third class in the future it should be Class AA, A, & B, instead of A, B, & C

Regions 1,2, and 7 use the super region format.
There is only 4 classes for football. I'm not sure how to word it correctly, but 6-man isn't NDHSAA sponsored.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby The Schwab » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:33 am

3 class system with super regionals! The best of both worlds!!!
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby Sportsrube » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:36 pm

The Schwab wrote:3 class system with super regionals! The best of both worlds!!!



I would be in favor of that!
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby theboss » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:48 pm

Sd has 3 class system that works well. Round of 16 after regionals gets the excitement rolling before the state tournament and makes sure that the best 8 teams in the state get a chance at the championship. Just my opinion but I think the system works great.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby B-oldtimer » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:53 pm

The three classes of basketball I don' see ever will happen because of money involved now for the class b basketball and tv rights. I believe activities association believes they would have hard time selling the third class of basketball to TV. In my estimation if put lowest class as b the middle class would then have hard time being sold to public and if they would go to class c then they would have hard time selling the bottom class to TV. The problem I see because of money issues we have large number of small schools that have no way can compete against larger schools in class b and if you are smaller school your best chances of coming to state are in regions 3 and 8 because there are more small schools in those regions. In boys basketball the same names keep coming to state tournament year after year. Examples of this Shiloh 7,Fargo oak Grove 5, Four winds 5,Beulah 5, Dickinson Trinity 4, Grafton 3, Hillsboro 3, North Star 3, New town 3, Linton 3, Cavalier 2, Richland 2, Lamoure 2 these are your multiple winners and if you would look some regions have been dominated by couple of teams. Similar things are happening on girls side as well and it usually larger or private schools dominating teams heading to state. I don't see much change in this and if there is any change number schools coming to the state is even going to be less. Gone is the day where you had small class b school coming to state with chance to win the state. I don't remember when we had real small class b school make the state and then even win first round game at the tournament. I believe this will lead either schools cooping more or just dropping sports all together kids that want to play will be some form of traveling team. The large Class b school like way it is now they go to state quite often and they like public attention. Nobody is looking out long term for health of the sport in the state and when us baby boomers are gone so will be audience for class b basketball because generations coming up behind there are fewer and fewer fans because they didn't participate like we did when growing up in the state. Look at our colleges they are not attracting fans when we were in college the fans have gone else where to other sports like hockey. Same thing is going to happen to highschool in the future.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:05 am

North Star, Linton, Cavalier, Richland, and Lamoure would all be considered small schools to me. Yes, they've been to state multiple times because they have had a couple good runs of athletes.

Coops are going to continue to happen with declining enrollments and less participation from kids. The larger towns that are not in a coop situation will have an even better chance for success in the future. I don't have any answers on how to solve the issue, though. It's just the state of the times we're in right now. Will it be the same, better, or worse in 10-15 years? Who knows. A lot can change in a short time.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby Sportsrube » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:01 am

The State Class B is becoming the same as the State Class A - pretty much the same teams year after year with a few exceptions. This is going to bring participation numbers down even more than they are right now. That being said, the NDHSAA has zero incentive to make changes and go to a 3 class system in BB and VB. The only way I see any serious discussion from the NDHSAA on this is if the $$ from televising the Class B and the attendance at Class B drop drastically.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby Howie » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:07 am

I'm sure region 7 fans would be in favor of the 3 class system. The same two teams have played for the last 5 region championships. Last night the private school who gets to host every year was defeated by one of the largest class B schools that has had 2 transfers the last two years. The Dickinson Trinity Titans were defeated by Beulah Miners (and Troopers and Bearcats oh my)
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:20 pm

B-oldtimer wrote: The problem I see because of money issues we have large number of small schools that have no way can compete against larger schools in class b and if you are smaller school your best chances of coming to state are in regions 3 and 8 because there are more small schools in those regions. In boys basketball the same names keep coming to state tournament year after year. Examples of this Shiloh 7,Fargo oak Grove 5, Four winds 5,Beulah 5, Dickinson Trinity 4, Grafton 3, Hillsboro 3, North Star 3, New town 3, Linton 3, Cavalier 2, Richland 2, Lamoure 2 these are your multiple winners and if you would look some regions have been dominated by couple of teams. Similar things are happening on girls side as well and it usually larger or private schools dominating teams heading to state. I don't see much change in this and if there is any change number schools coming to the state is even going to be less. Gone is the day where you had small class b school coming to state with chance to win the state. I don't remember when we had real small class b school make the state and then even win first round game at the tournament.


"Gone is the day where you had small class b school coming to state with chance to win the state. I don't remember when we had real small class b school make the state and then even win first round game at the tournament." North Star had around 80 kids in 9-12 when they made their run. Cavalier around 130, Linton around 115, LLM around 105, Richland around 100. What is a small Class B school in your mind?
Class B is better because of programs like these. They have good programs in place. Have runs of athletes that come along and knock off the dominant teams once in a while to keep the tourney somewhat interesting.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby B-oldtimer » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:51 pm

The majority of the schools in regions except for couple of regions is schools under 80 kids in school. The rural schools in North Dakota still continue to get smaller. I will give you numbers for say region 8 based on the numbers from activities site and I know this has not been updated but still represents the size of the schools. Region 8 one of the western regions is as follows: alexander 68; Lewis and clark North shore 37, Mandaree 56, New Town 267, Parshall 67, Trenton 101, White Shield 45, Williston trinity 42, Bowbells/Burke 55, Divide county 97, Kenmare 83, Powers lake 56, Ray 96, Stanley 351, and Tioga 108. So you see 10 of the schools are under 100 in region of 15 schools. Now you talk about North Star their enrollment was little larger than now but that was when region 4 had several other schools that are now cooped with other schools and at that time they were median school for Region 4 where half schools were either above or below them. I one time did all enrollment for schools in state median size enrollment was around 95 I believe where have the schools were above that enrollment and half below that enrollment. That may have changed with number of coops formed in last 10 years. But getting back look at this years state participants in boys basketball Region 1 Richland 72; HCV 208, Edgley Kulm Montpelier 146; Fourwinds/Minnewaukin 238; Shiloh 131; Rugby 170, Beulah 218; and New town 267 and only school to make to state b that is just little below the median size school state is Richland. But now you give me chances it has advancing when it is already paired against Fourwinds number one team in the state. Majority of the regions the number of schools under 100 reflects more than half of the region schools but look at state tournament we have only one school under 100 now tell me thats fair system when majority of the schools are not represented in the state tournament. The same can be said for girls side of the equation too for basketball but people in charge never look at these things its about money and larger schools. So I don't see a change until the money isn't there anymore.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:44 pm

Agree with your premise that there is a problem, just don't agree with what you consider a small school. You have mentioned before that "the same schools" keep making it back to state. You used North Star for instance. They had a run of exceptional athletes for 8-9 years. That may never happen again. They also play in arguably the toughest region in the state, which makes getting to state that much more difficult. Same can be said about the other small schools you mentioned. I believe you can compete with schools up to twice as big. Competing against schools 3 and 4 times bigger is the problem. State tourney has become predictable and participation in basketball will continue to drop until something changes.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby B-oldtimer » Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:07 pm

There have been some good plans proposed on this site in the past but here's why activities association hasn't gone very far with these plans. The teams that were to be in state class b this year six of them would have been in the new class. That's mean if we leave b to represent small schools in the state Tv would probably choose that because for the most part in North Dakota that is what people want to see is small schools fighting it out with larger school going against that small david school. I am going to here it will not draw the fans that b does right now because of size of the schools and towns coming to tournament. That may be true but if you put in venue like Betty the place will be full and loud and exciting which will go over on tv quite well. I think it sells it may not be best basketball but what your selling is drama of the state tournament. Now what do with that middle class presents the activities association with problem because scheduling it into the month of March. I also think tv would not be all that interested in another A tournament because here again there would not be highly attended state tournament and interest in this middle class would not be all that appealing to general fan base. Also this class is not like A where you have big cities where you have advertising base to sell ads to and has that local appeal to there city viewership. Also now this third class of schools represent a lot of political power in activities association and would be difficult to deal with if they felt if they were being under represented and lacking attention. This is why we haven't addressed the third class of basketball its about money and politics its just much easier to leave small class b schools which represents most schools but smallest number of people and having least voice both in activities association and in the state. I wish it wasn't so but these are the facts of where we are until what we have doesn't sell anymore. This will work as long as we have enough participation by kids playing but I believe were seeing a change in this now and it may begin to present a problem in near future because nobody likes to participate in something they know they don't have chance.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:36 am

Went through the teams that qualified for state from 1990-2019, three decades worth. Did not look at exact enrollments at the time of qualifying as I wouldn't even know where to find them. I also know some schools have grown since that time and others have lost quite a bit of enrollment. I counted the number of "small schools" who qualified for state each year. Figured roughly a HS enrollment in the ballpark of 120 or less being small. Did not do anything with the public vs private debate, however most private schools were considered large in the 90s early 00s with Shiloh, Williston Trinity, and Our Redeemers the small schools except for the last 5 years or so I considered Shiloh large. Also did not do any factoring of regions as some regions do not have any larger schools in them but regions have also changed so much over the past 30 years I wasn't going to dig into it that deep.

90s - 4.7 small schools qualified per year
00s - 4.5 small schools per year
10s - 3.2 small schools per year
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby B-oldtimer » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:34 pm

That enrollment figure of 120 would not be considered now small in class b today when you figure that over have the schools now in class b are under 100 now. That is figured is including coops now not the individual schools in the coops. Look at your Leeds schools which went back in 90's and 2000's you were near the enrollment of 100 kids in high school now you cooped with Maddock you don't even reach 100 in high school. I believe one of the plans I saw here on three classes I looked up schools that would be in that class third class smallest schools would have been down to 130 in high school with that third class being made up 32 teams. That roughly means remaining class b schools roughly 75 to 80 schools would be below that 130 level so you see meaning of small class b Changed. I would say to me small class b school would be under 80 kids in high school tell me how many schools have reached state tournament in last few years in that category. Even when North Star was going it was 85 to 90 kids in high school. A school that I am familiar with is Langdon which started the 2010's with enrollment of roughly 205 students in high school now has roughly enrollment of 131 in high school but they have off set this with cooping with Munich and Edmore to get there numbers back to roughly 180 in high school. But even with that they are down 10%. But then you look at Edmore and Munich numbers beginning 2010s they each had enrollments about 50 kids each plus they had numbers from coops so they could compete separately now between them they don't have 50 kids so here we have decline of more than 50% in enrollment. This is quite common for schools in rural areas where school enrollment numbers have fallen rapidly so where schools that maintained there size or grown have distinct advantage now then in the past. The small schools just don't have the numbers to compete with larger schools and is being proven out with same schools making and playing for region championships.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:55 am

I agree with you oldtimer, the landscape of rural schools has changed dramatically in the last 10-15 years. Maybe they need to look instead of limiting the middle class to 32 teams, having an enrollment cutoff and a process similar to the new football plan to implement a third class of small schools. Or with about 100 teams currently put the 32 smallest teams by enrollment into the lowest class with the rest falling in the middle class. Maybe that would be an incentive for some schools to take a hard look at if being in a co-op is in their best interest.
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Re: Three Class System or Super Region

Postby classB4ever » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:30 pm

B-oldtimer wrote:That enrollment figure of 120 would not be considered now small in class b today when you figure that over have the schools now in class b are under 100 now.


Would say it is almost 50/50 above/below 100.

B-oldtimer wrote:I believe one of the plans I saw here on three classes I looked up schools that would be in that class third class smallest schools would have been down to 130 in high school with that third class being made up 32 teams. That roughly means remaining class b schools roughly 75 to 80 schools would be below that 130 level so you see meaning of small class b Changed.


The idea of throwing out plans is to solve problems. The enrollments of 130 for a plan I threw out that you are probably referencing, included teams like Thompson, Oak Grove, Shiloh. All of them have the resources to compete against the biggest schools in their regions.

B-oldtimer wrote:I would say to me small class b school would be under 80 kids in high school tell me how many schools have reached state tournament in last few years in that category. Even when North Star was going it was 85 to 90 kids in high school.


If you wanted a division with what you call a small school being under 80, there would be about 40 teams. Leaving 60 some in the middle division. What problem is that going to solve? To me you are creating more problems. North Star had between 80 and 85 the years of their run.

Since 2001 teams under 80 who have been to state tourney:
R1- 2009- North Sargeant (75)
R3- 2001- Wilton (75), 2002- Strasburg (74), 2006 - Pingree Buchanan Kensall (73), 2016- Stras/Zeeland (63)
R4- 2002- Wells County (56)
R6- 2016- Our Redeemers (46)
R7- 2015- New England (2015)
R8- 2001,'03- Williston TC (41) '02, '10, - Mandaree (43), '04, '13- Trenton (63)

It has stayed consistent. Very small schools make it to state when they have a good run of athletes. They have a tendency not to do well at state due to the fact they are not as deep. It's pretty simple. However very small schools and small schools have a much better chance of playing against one another (enrollment 40 - 130) than schools with enrollments of 80+ going against the 20 biggest schools.
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