NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby classB4ever » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:04 am

Flip wrote:
...will probably break up some co-ops...

Do you think co-ops will break up to drop down a class or do you think it's because they won't need to co-op to be competitive?


I believe some of these schools participating in 3 and 4 school co-ops who fall into the lower class may decide they can compete again against similar schools of their size. I was not thinking about the "to drop down a class." However, that certainly is a legitimate point and guessing that will happen as well.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:12 pm

The co-ops that stood out to me as possible breakup to get down to the lowest class: Harvey-Wells County, Langdon-Edmore-Munich, and maybe HCV (I kind of doubt it though).

I have asked this before and one person gave me one example via PM, but who are co-ops that had enough numbers, but came together to become more competitive?
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby d_fense » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:58 am

Flip wrote:The co-ops that stood out to me as possible breakup to get down to the lowest class: Harvey-Wells County, Langdon-Edmore-Munich, and maybe HCV (I kind of doubt it though).

I have asked this before and one person gave me one example via PM, but who are co-ops that had enough numbers, but came together to become more competitive?

Hillsboro and CV
Hatton and Northwood
Midway and Minto
Wyndmere and Lidgerwood
Milnor and North Sargent
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:37 am

Flip wrote:The co-ops that stood out to me as possible breakup to get down to the lowest class: Harvey-Wells County, Langdon-Edmore-Munich, and maybe HCV (I kind of doubt it though).

I have asked this before and one person gave me one example via PM, but who are co-ops that had enough numbers, but came together to become more competitive?


I know Edmore and Munich have nowhere else to really coop with and are too small on their own, so I can't see that coop dissolving. Plus they are getting some pretty good players from each of those schools at the moment. Not sure Wells County is large enough to support their own team either.

One coop I think of is Heart River. You'd think they would have enough numbers for each on their own, but probably formed to compete with DT.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:24 am

d_fense wrote:Hillsboro and CV
Hatton and Northwood
Midway and Minto
Wyndmere and Lidgerwood
Milnor and North Sargent

Here are the enrollments for the top 3 co-ops you mentioned.
Hillsboro 151
Central Valley 62

Hatton 61
Northwood 64

Midway 53
Minto 69

Outside of Hillsboro the other 5 schools would struggle to put teams together and the main reason for the HCV co-op wasn't to compete, it was because CV needed someplace to go.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:58 am

Flip wrote:
d_fense wrote:Hillsboro and CV
Hatton and Northwood
Midway and Minto
Wyndmere and Lidgerwood
Milnor and North Sargent

Here are the enrollments for the top 3 co-ops you mentioned.
Hillsboro 151
Central Valley 62

Hatton 61
Northwood 64

Midway 53
Minto 69

Outside of Hillsboro the other 5 schools would struggle to put teams together and the main reason for the HCV co-op wasn't to compete, it was because CV needed someplace to go.


If the enrollment was set at 150, there would be no reason for any of those to dissolve. MM and HN would be one of the big dogs in the bottom class while Hillsboro will still be in the middle division without CV anyway.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby d_fense » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:26 am

Flip wrote:
d_fense wrote:Hillsboro and CV
Hatton and Northwood
Midway and Minto
Wyndmere and Lidgerwood
Milnor and North Sargent

Here are the enrollments for the top 3 co-ops you mentioned.
Hillsboro 151
Central Valley 62

Hatton 61
Northwood 64

Midway 53
Minto 69

Outside of Hillsboro the other 5 schools would struggle to put teams together and the main reason for the HCV co-op wasn't to compete, it was because CV needed someplace to go.

With numbers around 60, you can field a team and compete, but you will be up and down. The interests of high school kids are different than they were years ago. Kids used to participate in all or nearly all seasons. That isn’t the case any longer. So 60 kids doesn’t go as far as it used to every year. In the 3 coops you mentioned above, if Hillsboro and CV were not together I don’t think Hillsboro would have won a game vs CV the past two seasons in boys basketball. Hatton would have had their coops best player and competed pretty well, but I would have favored Northwood head to head based on depth. And I think Midway would have struggled to field a team, as they have always seemed to have difficulty on the boys side, despite having some very nice girls teams.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby B Historian » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:38 am

d_fense wrote:1. What makes you think that the NDHSAA doesn't want to entertain a multiplier?


There are eight private schools in the entire state. Two of them are too small to be affected by a multiplier and two would likely opt up a class anyway. We need a multiplier for four schools when some may opt up on their own? Doesn't make sense.

d_fense wrote:
2. What gives you the idea that a multiplier would lead to a legal challenge? It is used not only in other states, but in N.D. as well for free and reduced lunches.


It has happened in other states. Yes, there are states that have them (I currently live in one) but there have been many that have rejected the idea mainly because they don't want to potentially get involved in a legal battle over it.

d_fense wrote:
3. How many schools do you feel need to be in the "middle class"? In football we have had 10 or so. I think the 150 cut off puts plenty in the middle.


At least 32. Football is irrelevant to this conversation because each school only has 4-5 road games and they are all on the weekends. With BBB, GBB and VB each school is looking at a minimum of 24 road games, with several on school nights. There needs to be enough teams in the middle class to make travel doable.

d_fense wrote:
4. 120 does not put most privates in the middle class. Shanley and Bismarck St. M. will opt up. 120 just gets Shiloh in at I think 122, and D.T. would also fall there. A multiplier would get "most" privates in. M.B.R. would just get in, Oak Grove would be in easily along with Shiloh, and DT.


Yes it does. Shanley, St. Mary's, Trinity and Shiloh would all be in the middle class now by the numbers. Oak Grove's enrollment is booming and will easily be over 120 by the time this could be implemented.

If you assume that Shanley and St. Mary's would opt up, why would you also not assume that other private schools would opt up voluntarily?

And a 1.35 multiplier would not force Minot Ryan into the middle class.

d_fense wrote:
5. I don't see one school under 150 that will regularly compete with the likes of Wahpeton, where I think most above 150 will do fine. I also don't see one public school with numbers between 120-150 that will dominate the small class.


If Shanley and St. Mary's stay in the top class, then Wahpeton and Valley City are the only two schools that would be moving down. Neither has been good in basketball for years. There are many schools with enrollments even under 120 that will compete just fine with them.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby B Historian » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:55 am

ndlionsfan wrote:
Flip wrote:The co-ops that stood out to me as possible breakup to get down to the lowest class: Harvey-Wells County, Langdon-Edmore-Munich, and maybe HCV (I kind of doubt it though).

I have asked this before and one person gave me one example via PM, but who are co-ops that had enough numbers, but came together to become more competitive?


I know Edmore and Munich have nowhere else to really coop with and are too small on their own, so I can't see that coop dissolving. Plus they are getting some pretty good players from each of those schools at the moment. Not sure Wells County is large enough to support their own team either.

One coop I think of is Heart River. You'd think they would have enough numbers for each on their own, but probably formed to compete with DT.


I think the Heart River co-op would be the most likely to dissolve under a three class system.

I also wonder about Four Winds-Minnewaukan. Would Minnewaukan want to be back on its own?

The other thing to remember about co-ops: It needs to be in the best interests of all parties for a co-op to stay in place. In cases like the Harvey-Wells County co-op and Langdon Area, the larger schools may want to shed the smaller ones so they can stay in a smaller class.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:28 am

ndlionsfan wrote:If the enrollment was set at 150, there would be no reason for any of those to dissolve. MM and HN would be one of the big dogs in the bottom class while Hillsboro will still be in the middle division without CV anyway.

I understand. I was stating that these co-ops are in place because they don't have have numbers to be by themselves.

d_fense wrote:With numbers around 60, you can field a team and compete...

I can think of 3 region 2 teams last year that didn't have 15 girls out last season. All schools were over 110 enrollment. I'm not sure how they're competing if you cut their enrollment in half.

GCC was around 60. They haven't had a JV team in 2 seasons. Won't have a varsity next season. When was the last time they've competed?

B Historian wrote:The other thing to remember about co-ops: It needs to be in the best interests of all parties for a co-op to stay in place. In cases like the Harvey-Wells County co-op and Langdon Area, the larger schools may want to shed the smaller ones so they can stay in a smaller class.

You said this better than I could have. Wells County can't make Harvey be in a co-op with them.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:10 am

B Historian wrote:The other thing to remember about co-ops: It needs to be in the best interests of all parties for a co-op to stay in place. In cases like the Harvey-Wells County co-op and Langdon Area, the larger schools may want to shed the smaller ones so they can stay in a smaller class.

You said this better than I could have. Wells County can't make Harvey be in a co-op with them.[/quote]

Yes, I understand this. I've been involved in many schools with coops. But BB and VB are also different than FB. It takes the same numbers to compete in two divisions in BB and VB and you are just looking at competing and travel affecting the decision. In FB, you are looking at if you have the numbers in the coop to put 4 more players on the field, plus the competing and travel.

Another thing is a lot of these coops have formed an identity now and there is a good relationship between the schools/towns. Plus other sports factor in as well such as track and baseball. Yes, some schools may decide to shed a smaller school to remain in the bottom class but I don't think you will see that as much as some people are hoping.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:39 am

You're correct. I was just using Harvey/Well County as an example.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby classB4ever » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:37 am

Some great points brought up. 1 comment really made me think:

d_fense wrote:With numbers around 60, you can field a team and compete, but you will be up and down. The interests of high school kids are different than they were years ago. Kids used to participate in all or nearly all seasons. That isn’t the case any longer. So 60 kids doesn’t go as far as it used to every year.


In the past 20+ years, many, many rivalries have gone by the way side due to co-ops. As much as the parents still remember those old rivalries, for the kids of today, they are just old boring stories.

1 other thing mentioned which I didn't think about is the fact that there has to be co-ops in order for many of these schools to field a football team. So these kids are already becoming friends during the football season and will more than likely decide they should continue into other seasons as well.

Some benefits for dissolving current co-ops would include:
1. Less practice travel for many student athletes. This can be a big deal.
2. Easier scheduling and less overall travel. Games among co-op schools would be back in the schedule.
3. Uptick in local following.
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