NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

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NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby heimer » Wed May 30, 2018 11:39 am

400 and up
150-399
149 and below.

Until you get the privates out of the small-school game, it won't work.

http://www.inforum.com/sports/4453050-n ... volleyball
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Wed May 30, 2018 12:46 pm

Heard about the Wahpeton proposal in April. I still believe most of the private schools will opt up. I like the idea of not allowing opt downs too. We'll be 3 classes eventually IMO, I'm just not sure how long it will take.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed May 30, 2018 1:32 pm

I think it's a good start and hopefully the NDHSAA will give it an honest consideration. I could see a couple co-ops dissolving to stay in B and like Flip said I believe most private schools will opt up.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby scc » Wed May 30, 2018 4:03 pm

Let it fail.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby d_fense » Wed May 30, 2018 5:41 pm

scc wrote:Let it fail.

Why will it fail.?
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby heimer » Wed May 30, 2018 7:10 pm

d_fense wrote:
scc wrote:Let it fail.

Why will it fail.?


Doncha know? Dey had it right back in dah old country when dey first invented da basketball
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby packers21 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:48 am

I don’t think the privates would opt up and any proposal without all of them in the middle class shouldn’t and won’t pass.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:41 am

packers21 wrote:I don’t think the privates would opt up and any proposal without all of them in the middle class shouldn’t and won’t pass.

based on what?
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby packers21 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:24 pm

Flip wrote:
packers21 wrote:I don’t think the privates would opt up and any proposal without all of them in the middle class shouldn’t and won’t pass.

based on what?


Based on they don’t all opt up in football
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:22 am

With that logic maybe they'll all opt up because some do in football. But anyway, I don't think Shiloh not opting to 11 man will have much effect on Trinity, Ryan, or OG's potential decision. Take a look at the private schools non district or non region schedule. It kind of tells you who they want to be playing.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:36 am

Flip wrote:With that logic maybe they'll all opt up because some do in football. But anyway, I don't think Shiloh not opting to 11 man will have much effect on Trinity, Ryan, or OG's potential decision. Take a look at the private schools non district or non region schedule. It kind of tells you who they want to be playing.


I agree. Williston Trinity will not opt up and I don't believe ORCS will either. I can definitely see DT, Shiloh, and OG going up as well as Shanley to AA. Ryan is an interesting one. Won't be a lot of A schools in their area so much so travel may be an issue.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Mandan » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:38 pm

Here is a link to the full proposal, including how the classes would be grouped before any opt-ups.

https://ndhsaa.com/files/2017_18_Board_ ... tem_10.pdf
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby spins » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:42 pm

privates need their own class.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Mandan » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:59 pm

spins wrote:privates need their own class.


There are 8 private schools in North Dakota. That isn't enough for their own class.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby spins » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:41 am

Mandan wrote:
spins wrote:privates need their own class.


There are 8 private schools in North Dakota. That isn't enough for their own class.



Yes it is.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:30 am

Regardless, the chances the privates end up in the same class are less than the USMNT winning the 2018 World Cup.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby B Historian » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:42 pm

This plan would be a disaster. If there are going to be three classes then the A/B cutoff needs to be at about 120 so 1) most of the private schools end up in the middle class and 2) the middle class has 38-40 teams in it.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby classB4ever » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:03 pm

B Historian wrote:This plan would be a disaster. If there are going to be three classes then the A/B cutoff needs to be at about 120 so 1) most of the private schools end up in the middle class and 2) the middle class has 38-40 teams in it.


Tough one. Personally, I think the 150 is about right.

However, to determine enrollment, use a 1.5 multiplier if a team:

A. Is located in a city of > 5000 population.
B. Offers scholarships.
C. Has been in a region championship game or state tournament in either of the past 2 years.

After reading many articles on how other states are handling classifications, this seems to be the most equitable and gaining traction. The idea is based on 2 premises: 1. Private/parochial schools have 35%-50% higher participation rates in extracurricular activities than public schools. 2. Success seems to be the driving factor for the discussion, so this allows mobility back and forth between classifications.

I will honestly admit that ND's landscape is not like many other states when it comes to athletics. Not much traffic on preps, so just something to start a conversation.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby B Historian » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:57 pm

classB4ever wrote:
B Historian wrote:This plan would be a disaster. If there are going to be three classes then the A/B cutoff needs to be at about 120 so 1) most of the private schools end up in the middle class and 2) the middle class has 38-40 teams in it.


Tough one. Personally, I think the 150 is about right.

However, to determine enrollment, use a 1.5 multiplier if a team:

A. Is located in a city of > 5000 population.
B. Offers scholarships.
C. Has been in a region championship game or state tournament in either of the past 2 years.

After reading many articles on how other states are handling classifications, this seems to be the most equitable and gaining traction. The idea is based on 2 premises: 1. Private/parochial schools have 35%-50% higher participation rates in extracurricular activities than public schools. 2. Success seems to be the driving factor for the discussion, so this allows mobility back and forth between classifications.

I will honestly admit that ND's landscape is not like many other states when it comes to athletics. Not much traffic on preps, so just something to start a conversation.


I don't think the multiplier is something the NDHSAA wants to entertain. There are only eight or so private schools in the entire state. As has been discussed before, several have had success for sure but it's not like private schools are completely dominating high school basketball in the state. A multiplier isn't much bang for the buck, especially when it could lead to a legal challenge.

I think a cutoff of around 120 is reasonable because 1) it puts enough schools in the middle class to make regular season travel and region tournament travel a bit more doable, 2) it puts most of the private schools in the middle class without having to mess with multipliers and 3) it creates a small class that is truly about the small towns and schools.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby packers21 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:14 am

I also like the number 120, but I disagree with the comment on how privates aren’t dominanting Class B.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby d_fense » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:27 pm

B Historian wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
B Historian wrote:This plan would be a disaster. If there are going to be three classes then the A/B cutoff needs to be at about 120 so 1) most of the private schools end up in the middle class and 2) the middle class has 38-40 teams in it.


Tough one. Personally, I think the 150 is about right.

However, to determine enrollment, use a 1.5 multiplier if a team:

A. Is located in a city of > 5000 population.
B. Offers scholarships.
C. Has been in a region championship game or state tournament in either of the past 2 years.

After reading many articles on how other states are handling classifications, this seems to be the most equitable and gaining traction. The idea is based on 2 premises: 1. Private/parochial schools have 35%-50% higher participation rates in extracurricular activities than public schools. 2. Success seems to be the driving factor for the discussion, so this allows mobility back and forth between classifications.

I will honestly admit that ND's landscape is not like many other states when it comes to athletics. Not much traffic on preps, so just something to start a conversation.


I don't think the multiplier is something the NDHSAA wants to entertain. There are only eight or so private schools in the entire state. As has been discussed before, several have had success for sure but it's not like private schools are completely dominating high school basketball in the state. A multiplier isn't much bang for the buck, especially when it could lead to a legal challenge.

I think a cutoff of around 120 is reasonable because 1) it puts enough schools in the middle class to make regular season travel and region tournament travel a bit more doable, 2) it puts most of the private schools in the middle class without having to mess with multipliers and 3) it creates a small class that is truly about the small towns and schools.

1. What makes you think that the NDHSAA doesn't want to entertain a multiplier?
2. What gives you the idea that a multiplier would lead to a legal challenge? It is used not only in other states, but in N.D. as well for free and reduced lunches.
3. How many schools do you feel need to be in the "middle class"? In football we have had 10 or so. I think the 150 cut off puts plenty in the middle.
4. 120 does not put most privates in the middle class. Shanley and Bismarck St. M. will opt up. 120 just gets Shiloh in at I think 122, and D.T. would also fall there. A multiplier would get "most" privates in. M.B.R. would just get in, Oak Grove would be in easily along with Shiloh, and DT.
5. I don't see one school under 150 that will regularly compete with the likes of Wahpeton, where I think most above 150 will do fine. I also don't see one public school with numbers between 120-150 that will dominate the small class.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:47 pm

I don't like the multiplier that makes you move up if you've been to a region championship in either of the last 2 years. I'm not sure FSHP has ever been higher than a 6 seed in the region 2 tournament, but because they upset a couple teams last year they're going to be in the middle class?

I'm cool with the Wahpeton plan. I think 32 teams in the middle class is next to perfect and they'll get close to that number after opt-ups.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby classB4ever » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:57 am

Flip wrote:I don't like the multiplier that makes you move up if you've been to a region championship in either of the last 2 years. I'm not sure FSHP has ever been higher than a 6 seed in the region 2 tournament, but because they upset a couple teams last year they're going to be in the middle class?

I'm cool with the Wahpeton plan. I think 32 teams in the middle class is next to perfect and they'll get close to that number after opt-ups.


I think you misunderstood the qualifiers. The team has to be in a city of over 5000, give out scholarships and have been in a region championship or higher in either of the past 2 years. This is what many other states have done. In other words a private/parochial school located in a larger town that has been successful in the past 2 years. If they move up and do not play in a region championship in the higher class, they would be allowed to move back down the next go round, if they choose to.

I too agree with your 32 teams for the middle. Take the top 32 teams, with opt ups and multipliers. Believe this would put the bottom number around 140 or so.

The proposed system is going to create more situations than it is solving, IMHO. Travel being one of them. Unless of course teams schedule the same as they currently do and play up or down a class. Do believe it will help with better basketball (less blow outs during regular season) and will probably break up some co-ops and increase participation, if it takes off. 2 cents.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby classB4ever » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:14 am

d_fense wrote:5. I don't see one school under 150 that will regularly compete with the likes of Wahpeton, where I think most above 150 will do fine. I also don't see one public school with numbers between 120-150 that will dominate the small class.


I think this sums it up very well.
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Re: NDHSAA Considering Three Classes.......but

Postby Flip » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:17 am

classB4ever wrote:I think you misunderstood the qualifiers.

This is true. I thought you just had to hit 1 of the 3 parameters.

...will probably break up some co-ops...

Do you think co-ops will break up to drop down a class or do you think it's because they won't need to co-op to be competitive?
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