Fouling For Possession

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Fouling For Possession

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:46 pm

Yeah, I know, I'm just bringing this up to stir the pot and rip on basketball. Heard it all before.

This is a serious gripe.

I know it's blasphemy to suggest any changes, like at all, ever because we've done basketball the same ever since Jesus was born, but some of us would actually like to see the game evolve and mean a little something, so sue me.

I'm tired of watching decent games devolve into glorified free throw contests because some team s#cks defensively and can't stay even. Its stupid, it drags the game out, and it seems cheap 98% of the time.

Oh I know, you saw that one team that one time come all the way back from down 54 with 3 minutes left, and what a shame it would have been if you wouldn't have been able to witness it. It was the crowning achievement of your high school career.

Every foul in that situation is an intentional foul. We all know it. Its time to end the practice.

Solution: fouls 7, 8, and 9 are 1 for 1 penalty. 10, 11, and 12 are double penalty. 13 and up are technical fouls. You can foul for six possessions.

If you played awful and are at 12 when you have to start fouling, you lose.

Watching games that are fairly good turn into this crap is not what basketball is about.
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby packers21 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:15 am

heimer wrote:Yeah, I know, I'm just bringing this up to stir the pot and rip on basketball. Heard it all before.

This is a serious gripe.

I know it's blasphemy to suggest any changes, like at all, ever because we've done basketball the same ever since Jesus was born, but some of us would actually like to see the game evolve and mean a little something, so sue me.

I'm tired of watching decent games devolve into glorified free throw contests because some team s#cks defensively and can't stay even. Its stupid, it drags the game out, and it seems cheap 98% of the time.

Oh I know, you saw that one team that one time come all the way back from down 54 with 3 minutes left, and what a shame it would have been if you wouldn't have been able to witness it. It was the crowning achievement of your high school career.

Every foul in that situation is an intentional foul. We all know it. Its time to end the practice.

Solution: fouls 7, 8, and 9 are 1 for 1 penalty. 10, 11, and 12 are double penalty. 13 and up are technical fouls. You can foul for six possessions.

If you played awful and are at 12 when you have to start fouling, you lose.

Watching games that are fairly good turn into this crap is not what basketball is about.


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It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:47 am

heimer wrote:Yeah, I know, I'm just bringing this up to stir the pot and rip on basketball. Heard it all before.

This is a serious gripe.

I know it's blasphemy to suggest any changes, like at all, ever because we've done basketball the same ever since Jesus was born, but some of us would actually like to see the game evolve and mean a little something, so sue me.

I'm tired of watching decent games devolve into glorified free throw contests because some team s#cks defensively and can't stay even. Its stupid, it drags the game out, and it seems cheap 98% of the time.

Oh I know, you saw that one team that one time come all the way back from down 54 with 3 minutes left, and what a shame it would have been if you wouldn't have been able to witness it. It was the crowning achievement of your high school career.

Every foul in that situation is an intentional foul. We all know it. Its time to end the practice.

Solution: fouls 7, 8, and 9 are 1 for 1 penalty. 10, 11, and 12 are double penalty. 13 and up are technical fouls. You can foul for six possessions.

If you played awful and are at 12 when you have to start fouling, you lose.

Watching games that are fairly good turn into this crap is not what basketball is about.


I agree with your opinion that every foul in that situation is an intentional foul. I think there needs to be more of an emphasis put on going for the ball or not. If there is no attempt made on the ball with a foul on the dribbler it needs to be called as an intentional foul, period.
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby NodakQ2 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:38 am

The Schwab wrote:
heimer wrote:Yeah, I know, I'm just bringing this up to stir the pot and rip on basketball. Heard it all before.

This is a serious gripe.

I know it's blasphemy to suggest any changes, like at all, ever because we've done basketball the same ever since Jesus was born, but some of us would actually like to see the game evolve and mean a little something, so sue me.

I'm tired of watching decent games devolve into glorified free throw contests because some team s#cks defensively and can't stay even. Its stupid, it drags the game out, and it seems cheap 98% of the time.

Oh I know, you saw that one team that one time come all the way back from down 54 with 3 minutes left, and what a shame it would have been if you wouldn't have been able to witness it. It was the crowning achievement of your high school career.

Every foul in that situation is an intentional foul. We all know it. Its time to end the practice.

Solution: fouls 7, 8, and 9 are 1 for 1 penalty. 10, 11, and 12 are double penalty. 13 and up are technical fouls. You can foul for six possessions.

If you played awful and are at 12 when you have to start fouling, you lose.

Watching games that are fairly good turn into this crap is not what basketball is about.


I agree with your opinion that every foul in that situation is an intentional foul. I think there needs to be more of an emphasis put on going for the ball or not. If there is no attempt made on the ball with a foul on the dribbler it needs to be called as an intentional foul, period.


THIS...The rules are there...Enforce them.
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:24 pm

NFHS is also concerned. It was a point of emphasis this year.

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-co ... s-2017-18/
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:40 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:NFHS is also concerned. It was a point of emphasis this year.

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-co ... s-2017-18/


Did anyone see a situation at the end of the game called an intentional foul?
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:23 pm

The Schwab wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:NFHS is also concerned. It was a point of emphasis this year.

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-co ... s-2017-18/


Did anyone see a situation at the end of the game called an intentional foul?

What game?
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:29 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:NFHS is also concerned. It was a point of emphasis this year.

https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-co ... s-2017-18/


Did anyone see a situation at the end of the game called an intentional foul?

What game?


Sorry I could have worded this better. Did anyone see any situation this year where when a team was fouling "intentionally" to stop the clock (not going for the ball but not with malicious contact) and they actually called an intentional foul? I can think of one instance where I saw that this year. For being a POE it wasn't really emphasized this year IMO
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:00 pm

Thompson Grafton Region 2 semifinals.

I was unaware that this was a POE. If it was, it explains some things.

However, not the same scenario, as Thompson had the lead.

I usually don't come here to complain about officials, but I do believe that, by not calling the foul intentional, you bail out the team that is behind. I've seen a reach toward someone's back while they are running away with the ball whistled. There's no attempt at the ball, but the officials know the game situation, so they blow the whistle.

If this is a POE, we do need better enforcement of this.
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:02 pm

3. Intentional Fouls. The committee is concerned about the lack of enforcement for intentional fouls during any part of the game but especially at the end of a game. The intentional foul rule has evolved into misapplication and personal interpretations. An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act, it is contact that:

Neutralizes an opponent’s obvious advantageous position.
Contact on an opponent who is clearly not in the play.
May be excessive contact.
Contact that is not necessarily premeditated or based solely on the severity of the act.
This type of foul may be strategic to stop the clock or create a situation that may be tactically done for the team taking action. This foul may be innocent in severity, but without any playing of the ball, it becomes an intentional act such as a player wrapping their arms around an opponent. The act may be excessive in its intensity and force of the action. These actions are all intentional fouls and are to be called as such.
Officials must be aware of the game situations as the probability of fouling late in the game is an accepted coaching strategy and is utilized by many coaches in some form. Officials must have the courage to enforce the intentional foul rule properly.
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:08 pm

Players and coaches must also be aware. As mentioned above, I too believe we have enough rules and they just need to be applied. However, for discussion purposes, one could apply something similar to the "intentional" walk rule which they have used in baseball. Something like allowing the coach to call a "team" foul 1 time during the game and foul is given to any chosen player on the court. Each team only gets one so they must use it wisely. The coach can signal it directly to the official once the ball becomes live. Probably a lot of negatives about it, but just one idea to add to discussion.
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:09 pm

heimer wrote:Yeah, I know, I'm just bringing this up to stir the pot and rip on basketball. Heard it all before.

This is a serious gripe.

I know it's blasphemy to suggest any changes, like at all, ever because we've done basketball the same ever since Jesus was born, but some of us would actually like to see the game evolve and mean a little something, so sue me.

I'm tired of watching decent games devolve into glorified free throw contests because some team s#cks defensively and can't stay even. Its stupid, it drags the game out, and it seems cheap 98% of the time.

Oh I know, you saw that one team that one time come all the way back from down 54 with 3 minutes left, and what a shame it would have been if you wouldn't have been able to witness it. It was the crowning achievement of your high school career.

Every foul in that situation is an intentional foul. We all know it. Its time to end the practice.

Solution: fouls 7, 8, and 9 are 1 for 1 penalty. 10, 11, and 12 are double penalty. 13 and up are technical fouls. You can foul for six possessions.

If you played awful and are at 12 when you have to start fouling, you lose.

Watching games that are fairly good turn into this crap is not what basketball is about.



wouldn't your solution bring on more of the blue?
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:20 pm

No, because, in my solution, fouling for possession would be impossible. You would not get the ball after a 13th foul, as it would be a technical foul.

I feel the solution ive suggested is generous. You get 24 fouls a game, 12 in each half. There should be penalties for going beyond that.
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby vikingman » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:29 pm

or at some point (say, 3rd foul in the final 2 minutes), allow the offensive team the option of not shooting free throws, instead they keep possession and take 10 seconds off the clock.
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:10 pm

Boom
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:07 pm

Enforcing the rule as is will fix it the situation. I thought there were some fouls in the state tournament that should have been called intentional. I do not understand how coaches tell a player to straight up foul instead of taking a risk at a steal. Either you get the steal or your foul. If you tell a kid to foul then you doing a disservice to the team.
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Re: Fouling For Possession

Postby winner-within » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:02 pm

heimer wrote:No, because, in my solution, fouling for possession would be impossible. You would not get the ball after a 13th foul, as it would be a technical foul.

I feel the solution ive suggested is generous. You get 24 fouls a game, 12 in each half. There should be penalties for going beyond that.


I do see your point in this whole scenario, but I question will it in fact improve defensive play?
it may make a team more disciplined and coaches more aware of a potential outcome of a game...

2 technical fouls you sit now though, so does that still pertain?

and I don't see the intentional foul thing near as much as I see one team having 10 fouls at half time and the other having 3.....or a game ending where one team has 18 fouls (24 is a lot) and the other team 7 (saw this)

or better yet, calling that crucial foul, when a team is about to go on a run and it cools them right off.....like I've said before........call the game with blinders in the respect of, you don't know the coach, you don't know the AD, the Sup, the Prin, the players, etc etc .....why? because you are a judge, you are am Umpire, you are the enforcer of the rules of the game.......and all that spells "fairness"
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