Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

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Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby justplayalready » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:58 pm

After watching the first semi of the girls B, TV wants me to believe that KIlldeer, Thompson and Grant County are these huge underdogs as unseeded teams??? I get trying to add more drama but come on. An "unseeded" team knocking off a "seeded" team at the B is not this huge dramatic upset.

These "seedings" really mean nothing, actually giving a team extra motivation if they believe themselves an underdog based on a seeding that has no credibility??? Best I can figure teams are seeded due to record and media poll position? Unless there is late season head to head data a coaches opinion isn't really much either..A true indicator of the quality of a team???

I get that seeing two unbeaten teams at 1 pm on Thursday may not be what the media wants to see...but don't tell me that these are always the two best teams and the championship is decided on Thursday

I'd rather have truly random seedings then the current almost random(and meaningless) seedings that are portrayed as accurate portrayal of the strength of the team..

Fake news??? Media Fodder???
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby scc » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:14 pm

I'll tell you one thing. They weren't seeded based on the media poll. If they were, Thompson would have been #4 and Kindred #5. As a coach, one strategy you could employ is to seed the tournament in a way that might help you along the way. I don't know whether any coaches do that, but it's feasible. I think the day will come when a formula will determine things, but please seed the tournament 1 through 8.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby sportsfan111 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:16 pm

I see no problem seeding the tournaments. Obviously there’s going to be a couple overrated and underrated teams each year, and some teams just don’t show up to play. This year was especially hard to call. I could be wrong, but isn’t seeding voted on by the coaches of the teams of the qualifying teams? No media involved? Should NCAA stop seeding the national tournament just because a Lehigh knocks off a Duke every year? In my opinion, it’s not that big of a deal.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby sportsfan111 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:17 pm

scc wrote:I'll tell you one thing. They weren't seeded based on the media poll. If they were, Thompson would have been #4 and Kindred #5. As a coach, one strategy you could employ is to seed the tournament in a way that might help you along the way. I don't know whether any coaches do that, but it's feasible. I think the day will come when a formula will determine things, but please seed the tournament 1 through 8.


Totally with you on 1-8!!!
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby scc » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:18 pm

sportsfan111 wrote:I see no problem seeding the tournaments. Obviously there’s going to be a couple overrated and underrated teams each year, and some teams just don’t show up to play. This year was especially hard to call. I could be wrong, but isn’t seeding voted on by the coaches of the teams of the qualifying teams? No media involved? Should NCAA stop seeding the national tournament just because a Lehigh knocks off a Duke every year? In my opinion, it’s not that big of a deal.

Right, the 8 coaches do the seeding. They rank the 7 teams other than themselves.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby justplayalready » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:26 pm

I do know how it was done...again no criteria, formula or a system. Just random based on opinion...No problem with it or how it's done...just don't sell it to me as something it's not
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby NodakQ2 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:27 pm

I like the seeding for the simple fact in those years where there are a couple power houses, they aren’t meeting on Thursday afternoon. That in itself is worth the seedlings. I agree with seeding 1-8, but don’t think it will happen.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby justplayalready » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:39 pm

I know this is kinda new 2012-13 ish??? Anyone know what the matchups were that made people say this thing needs to be seeded??? Boys side or girls???
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:06 pm

justplayalready wrote:I know this is kinda new 2012-13 ish??? Anyone know what the matchups were that made people say this thing needs to be seeded??? Boys side or girls???


There were several years in a row where the Boys tournament had #1 vs. #2 in the 1st Round and I think since MN went towards seeding for postseason (and had success in the change) then ND followed suit. You are always going to have upsets or a seeded team not show up on Day 1...it happens...it's HS sports.

This tournament has just been an odd one. Grant County just made the title...down a key player most of the year but was rated pretty high in the Hoopster (#2) and Preseason polls...got hot at the right time. Killdeer was picked 2nd in their Region in the Hoopster (and ranked #11). It's not like a team that wasn't even on the radar is in the State Title.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby KG4MVP » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:46 pm

Love seeding idea of 1-8. Not having any seeding like before was ridiculous. Can’t have a 1 vs 2 in the 1st rd, it’s happened a few times. It’s bad for the sport.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby woodchuck10 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:24 pm

I’d like to see them place the regions in the state tournement before regionals start. Could use the QRF to find he average of top four teams in each region.

Region 1 88.175
Oak Grove 106
Wyndmere-Lidgerwood 92.1
Maple Valley 79.5
Richland 75.1

Region 2 90.375
Hillsboro-CV 107.3
Thompson 91
Grafton 89.4
Hatton-Northwood 73.8

Region 3 78.975
Carrington 106.9
Edgley-Kulm 80.2
Ellendale 65
LaMoure-LM 63.8

Region 4 91.775
Dunseith 106.5
St. John 105.8
Four Winds-M 78
Langdon-E-M 76.8

Region 5 82.335
Shiloh Christian 87.6
Standing Rock 87.4
Solen 77.3 *did not qualify for regionals
Turtle Lake-MM 77

Region 6 90.6
Bishop Ryan 103.1
Our Redeemer’s 92.3
Bottineau 86.3
Des Lacs-B 80.7

Region 7 77.625
Beulah 93.8
Hettinger-Scranton 76.6
Dickinson Trinity 71.1
Beach 69

Region 8 90.4
Stanley 104.2
New Town 102.8
Powers Lake 77.7
Mandaree 76.9

So the state parings would be:
Region 4 vs Region 7
Region 2 vs Region 1

Region 6 vs Region 3
Region 8 vs Region 5

Obviously this has its cons. Biggest con would be a strong team in a weak region getting an unfair placement, such as Carrington in Region 3. The QRF isn’t the best ranking formaul to use either.

Any other ideas as ways to pair our state tournement? I thinking pairing/placement of regions is better than seeding teams less than a week before the state tournement.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby airmail » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:42 am

I think the seeds are important to avoid a potential championship in the first round. And who better than to vote on it than the coaches of the teams. 1-5 or 1-8 doesn't really matter to me.
It''s kind of funny that this has come up now because of the incredible parity that we saw at this year's girls tournament. I thought that's what we all wanted?!?

Fake news and Media fodder my butt. The seedings were pretty legit. But this time, so we're all of the participants. Be happy.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:47 am

I don't think they will ever go to seeding 1-8. Don't want to have one team to get that 8 seed. I'm fine with how they do it now. It seems to work well and the fact is this tournament we had a lot of parity. Does anyone really think Grant County would have been seeded higher at the start of the tournament? With 5 losses there is no way they were being put ahead of that many other 2-3 loss teams no matter who did the seeding.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:42 pm

If you have a QRF that values all games teams play (not just against ND competition) use that to seed the 8 state tournament qualifiers. My thoughts on seeding, seed all 1-8.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby airmail » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:19 pm

The Schwab wrote:If you have a QRF that values all games teams play (not just against ND competition) use that to seed the 8 state tournament qualifiers. My thoughts on seeding, seed all 1-8.


Does the northdakota-scores.net site utilize all competition in the QRF calculation, or just ND competition?
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:29 pm

airmail wrote:
The Schwab wrote:If you have a QRF that values all games teams play (not just against ND competition) use that to seed the 8 state tournament qualifiers. My thoughts on seeding, seed all 1-8.


Does the northdakota-scores.net site utilize all competition in the QRF calculation, or just ND competition?


I am unsure of the answer to that question.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:53 pm

Just ND.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby airmail » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:07 pm

The Schwab wrote:
airmail wrote:
The Schwab wrote:If you have a QRF that values all games teams play (not just against ND competition) use that to seed the 8 state tournament qualifiers. My thoughts on seeding, seed all 1-8.


Does the northdakota-scores.net site utilize all competition in the QRF calculation, or just ND competition?


I am unsure of the answer to that question.


Just curious. For conversation purposes, the seedings for the Girls tournament based on QRF (taken from the referenced website) would've been like this:

1 - 2 Medina/Pingree-Buchanan (22-2) 113.7
2 - 3 Rugby (22-2) 110.0
3 - 5 Thompson (21-3) 106.1
4 - 6 Langdon/Edmore/Munich (22-2) 105.7
5 - 7 Kindred (19-4) 102.9
6 - 8 Killdeer (20-4) 102.7
7 - 10 Grant County (19-5) 98.3
8 - 24 Watford City (15-10) 80.6

EDIT - I see these are just based on ND competition. Anyone know how much they'd change?

Kind of interesting knowing what we know now - but not out of reason at all. That just goes to show that there's no way to seed these teams exactly, especially when there's competition like we had. Also - the course of the season doesn't always tell the whole story of a team at tournament time (GC's situation proved that big-time). That's why I like that the coaches vote on it - I think it helps to pull some intangibles into the mix that the math/ records/ season doesn't always show.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby Thundersnow » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:12 pm

justplayalready wrote:After watching the first semi of the girls B, TV wants me to believe that KIlldeer, Thompson and Grant County are these huge underdogs as unseeded teams??? I get trying to add more drama but come on. An "unseeded" team knocking off a "seeded" team at the B is not this huge dramatic upset.

These "seedings" really mean nothing, actually giving a team extra motivation if they believe themselves an underdog based on a seeding that has no credibility??? Best I can figure teams are seeded due to record and media poll position? Unless there is late season head to head data a coaches opinion isn't really much either..A true indicator of the quality of a team???

I get that seeing two unbeaten teams at 1 pm on Thursday may not be what the media wants to see...but don't tell me that these are always the two best teams and the championship is decided on Thursday

I'd rather have truly random seedings then the current almost random(and meaningless) seedings that are portrayed as accurate portrayal of the strength of the team..

Fake news??? Media Fodder???


I don't understand your anger. There is no perfect way of setting up a bracket full of teams that haven't played against each other. Are you aware of the NCAA Basketball Tournament? Every year the selection committee makes seeding decisions that are controversial. Should they abandon that and just go with random seedings?

The current seeding process isn't perfect, but it's infinitely better than the random system we used to have. If you make it to state, you have a good team. Assigning a seed to 5 of them doesn't mean those are the only 5 that have a chance to win. At the same time, Killdeer and Thompson didn't win their first round games just because they were motivated "underdogs" based on seeding. They won because they played better on Thursday. The state tournament was good before we had seeding; it's better now with seeding.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby justplayalready » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:09 pm

No anger at all, no problem with why it's done or how it's done...just questioned the TV media portraying the lower seeded team as somehow being an underdog where the seeding seemed to be based on record first, and then likely polling. I do disagree that this wasn't used as motivation for the team...GC coach said it a halftime of Friday night game. Polls are flawed, records don't always tell the truth and hindsight is 20/20 etc. Too me I didn't see GC beating Shiloh, Kindred, MPB, and Kildeer on neutral courts as any type "upset", I guess you can call it an upset if you only count records.



.
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Re: Seedings at the B..get rid of it???

Postby OldSchoolBaller » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:31 am

justplayalready wrote:No anger at all, no problem with why it's done or how it's done...just questioned the TV media portraying the lower seeded team as somehow being an underdog where the seeding seemed to be based on record first, and then likely polling. I do disagree that this wasn't used as motivation for the team...GC coach said it a halftime of Friday night game. Polls are flawed, records don't always tell the truth and hindsight is 20/20 etc. Too me I didn't see GC beating Shiloh, Kindred, MPB, and Kildeer on neutral courts as any type "upset", I guess you can call it an upset if you only count records.



.

If it was just records and polls GC would not of had a seed. As far as portraying of an underdog, maybe Killdeer should not have been but Thompson got beat by LAE earlier in the season by a healthy margin so there was some truth to them being underdogs in that situation.
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