3 class system

The Buzz on Class B.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:43 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:
Flip wrote:
classB4ever wrote:Always like to have the figures when discussing. Thought I would put up South Dakota's school list with enrollments. What I found was they have AA - 17 schools, A - 55 schools, B - 84 schools for a total of 156 teams. Not sure how co-ops, etc. work, so below listed are the top 200 for enrollment. In beginning of 2017 they were discussing splitting the B class and having 4 classes. It would appear their splits would happen around 600 for AA and 120 for A. Just for discussion.
.
.
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Never realized the makeup of SD is so much different than ND. I guess the only "big" towns are Sioux Falls and Rapid City. They have a nice group of to choose a middle class.


Agree here. North Dakota's 'middle' is small. South Dakota has 31 schools with enrollment between 200 & 450 in grades 9-12. I don't think North Dakota has half that number. It's roughly the range that comprises AA football, and AA football was played with just ten teams in that division this year.

Many would say we need a middle division anyway. That's fine. Let's just acknowledge that North Dakota's 'middle' has fewer teams by comparison.


By doubling the enrollments from the high school football plan (which only accounts for only boys) we have 27 schools between 180-408...
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:46 pm

Yeah. We can certainly quibble at the margins. I don’t even know my co-ops that well, but I counted at least six football co-ops within that group that don’t exist for basketball. I also see two private schools that most would want to be up and out of that middle division. That alone takes your 27 down to 19. The larger point still stands, South Dakota has a bigger middle than North Dakota.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:26 pm

North Dakota has a great option for a middle class for schools between 150 and 400 students.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:46 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:In each of the four quarterfinal matchups today, the smaller school won.


Girl's tourney was fun to watch. Quality basketball played at high level. You have used girl's basketball for defense of the 2 class system for quite some time. I do not believe the problems have arose in girl's basketball as fast as in boys due to it being less popular. Meaning, class b boys basketball/state tournament has been the most popular sport/tournament in ND to date.

This is the driving factor for: A. So many emotional debates concerning changes to boy's 2 class system. B. Why there is a larger discrepancy in talent in the class. I estimate class B boys is 3 - 5 times more popular than class b girl's basketball. To verify, one can look at traffic on this website. Views on the subject are 5:1 and posts are 3:1. This is not scientific, just an observation. I would guess it's fairly close to reality. My past opinion was that it's only a matter of time before there is a clear separation in talent on the girl's side as well. As popularity rises, so will the reasons to get to the girl's state tourney. We'll see if any changes are made then.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:35 pm

Agree with most everything here, except that 'I've used GBB to defend two classes.'

I think GBB has been the tougher case to make, with Minot Ryan's 3peat and Shiloh Christian's title in recent memory. Most would point to that and say we have a big problem here.

The boys have had 13 different state champions in the last 13 years.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:05 pm

I agree that this is a very emotional debate. I have said this before in a previous post. If high school athletics were about the kids, we would have a 3 class system. If we can run a football class with only 10 teams, we can run a middle class in basketball with 20.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:25 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:Agree with most everything here, except that 'I've used GBB to defend two classes.'

I think GBB has been the tougher case to make, with Minot Ryan's 3peat and Shiloh Christian's title in recent memory. Most would point to that and say we have a big problem here.


Fair point. Should have said "others" have used GBB and GVB in the past.

Bisonguy06 wrote:The boys have had 13 different state champions in the last 13 years.


Will agree it is harder to predict the state champion than it is the 8 team participants. :)
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sportsrube » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:42 pm

The Schwab wrote:I agree that this is a very emotional debate. I have said this before in a previous post. If high school athletics were about the kids, we would have a 3 class system. If we can run a football class with only 10 teams, we can run a middle class in basketball with 20.



100% spot on. It is more about money than it is about the kids.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flying Wallenda » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:51 pm

Sportsrube wrote:
The Schwab wrote:I agree that this is a very emotional debate. I have said this before in a previous post. If high school athletics were about the kids, we would have a 3 class system. If we can run a football class with only 10 teams, we can run a middle class in basketball with 20.



100% spot on. It is more about money than it is about the kids.


Not taking shot, but i"m interested in your beliefs are about why its about money?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:58 pm

It is possible to "think about the kids" and arrive at two classes being the best plan.

A two class system means that student-athletes spend less time on a bus and more time in a classroom, for example. That's "thinking about the kids." These are schools first, after all. (Yes, there are ways to schedule three classes with minimal impact on travel).

I think we can carry on the conversation without saying that only one side has pure motives.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:13 pm

I would say it's more about money than about kids, I don't think the driving force behind it is completely based on money. Here are some thoughts on why I feel the NDHSAA board is fighting the 3 class so hard.

1. It would mess up the 3 straight weekends of state tournaments, you would either have to play both boys and girls class b and a on the same weekend like the would AA or you'd have to have to take a lot longer for state tournaments.
2. They are afraid of lawsuits by schools without defined district lines if they were to be automatically bumped up a class (which a couple of the plans have had as part of them)
3. They are afraid that the operating cost of running 16 extra regional tournament would outweigh the profits generated by those tournaments.
4. If it had to include volleyball, they would have to change their current state volleyball tournament set up. You can't play 3 games in the same facility at the same time (maybe the Bismarck Events Center could do that though)

5th and most important- no one who is currently on the board wants it, people look at the final night attendance of the state class B and say "we can't mess with this, look at this atmosphere".

Can you imagine what the attendance would look like if you had 8 small schools in a tournament? The entire towns would shut down and you would have people from towns that didn't make it that would go watch just like they did before. I realize that there are still people that go every year, but that number is shrinking.

The NDHSAA board is there to serve the members of the association, when a plan passes the district chairs meeting with a 14-2 vote (and the only 2 voting no did so because of the quick time frame for implementation) and the board chooses not to even discuss it tells me that people on the board have their own agendas. I realize that it didn't include volleyball, how hard would it be to put the word VOLLEYBALL in the plan? It wouldn't be

I realize that there is more that goes into these decisions, but if you are an association made up of schools in North Dakota, shouldn't you try to organize it how those schools want? Maybe I'm way off on this.

I 100 percent agree with the fact that they are student-athletes, the student should always come first. If we were really worried about seat time, would we require so many state tests? Would we cut down the number of times kids leave for Vocational programs (FFA, DECA, FCCLA etc...), how about science olympiad and science fair? I have a feeling if the NDHSAA's reasoning was seat time for kids, they wouldn't have set up a AA football class that plays cross-state games during the regular season.

I love class B basketball as much as anyone in the state, however, to say it isn't a broken system is wrong. Will I still go to the class B tournament every single year even if nothing changes? You bet your butt I will.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby vikingman » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:44 pm

Could someone explain the reasoning for this:

Why would a 3-class system HAVE to include volleyball? I know NDHSAA has said that, but WHY? What is inherently wrong with having 3 classes for BB and 2 for VB? If you can have 4 classes for football and only 2 for basketball, why do basketball and volleyball have to have the same number?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:44 pm

vikingman, I have wondered the exact same thing. Or if BB changes why aren't they demanding changes for wrestling, T&F, SB, speech, drama, etc.

MN has 3 classes of VB and 4 of BB.

What if they just did a 4-5 year experiment of 3 classes...does it have to be once we go to 3 we'll never go back? At the coaching convention last July a Class A coach said everyone thought the Super A was a bad idea and turned out great for Class A basketball. His point was we should be open to new ideas.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sportsrube » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:03 am

Flying Wallenda wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:
The Schwab wrote:I agree that this is a very emotional debate. I have said this before in a previous post. If high school athletics were about the kids, we would have a 3 class system. If we can run a football class with only 10 teams, we can run a middle class in basketball with 20.



100% spot on. It is more about money than it is about the kids.


Not taking shot, but i"m interested in your beliefs are about why its about money?


Schwab basically answered the question, but I believe the NDHSAA is afraid that the Class B Tourny would not bring in the TV revenue that it does now if there was a 3 class system. The tournament scheduling could be worked out, but I don't know if they could sell the TV rights to 2 extra tournaments (1 girls, 1 boys) and if they don't televise all state BB tournaments and only televise 1 or 2 they would open themselves up to lawsuits, etc...I also believe they are afraid of being sued if all schools without defined boundaries have to play in the middle or top division. (This is the "rule" in most other states, not sure how they survived without being sued.) Right now the Class B Boys BB Tournament is a large money maker for the NDHSAA and they don't want to do anything to jeopardize their cash cow.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby whine » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:34 am

Have to say totally sick of hearing about the 3 class system and unfairness for all. Last I checked every school has a gym and a weight room, want to get better get in it.
But for all the unfair for small school proponents let have a 16 class system.
Class AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Class AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA etc.

This would allow every school with the exception of 3 can experience the state tournament. All small schools can "empty the town" for their state tournament. Would probably need a plan for the 3 teams that don't make the tournament because it would unfair to exclude them as well.

Even number classes to be held at 8 sites on one weekend and odd number classes at 8 sites the next weekend. This would allow teams not to have to work to get better because we all need that warm fuzzy feeling now a days.

I cant wait to hear from you all regarding bigger schools have more advantage comments. It will only be the 435 time on this site. Let the berating begin.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:46 am

whine wrote:Have to say totally sick of hearing about the 3 class system and unfairness for all. Last I checked every school has a gym and a weight room, want to get better get in it.
But for all the unfair for small school proponents let have a 16 class system.
Class AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Class AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA etc.


This would allow every school with the exception of 3 can experience the state tournament. All small schools can "empty the town" for their state tournament. Would probably need a plan for the 3 teams that don't make the tournament because it would unfair to exclude them as well.

Even number classes to be held at 8 sites on one weekend and odd number classes at 8 sites the next weekend. This would allow teams not to have to work to get better because we all need that warm fuzzy feeling now a days.

I cant wait to hear from you all regarding bigger schools have more advantage comments. It will only be the 435 time on this site. Let the berating begin.


I think this might work and addresses a lot of the issues being discussed. Could you list the towns in each division so we could better understand it? /s
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:56 am

whine wrote:Have to say totally sick of hearing about the 3 class system and unfairness for all. Last I checked every school has a gym and a weight room, want to get better get in it.
But for all the unfair for small school proponents let have a 16 class system.
Class AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Class AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA etc.

This would allow every school with the exception of 3 can experience the state tournament. All small schools can "empty the town" for their state tournament. Would probably need a plan for the 3 teams that don't make the tournament because it would unfair to exclude them as well.

Even number classes to be held at 8 sites on one weekend and odd number classes at 8 sites the next weekend. This would allow teams not to have to work to get better because we all need that warm fuzzy feeling now a days.

I cant wait to hear from you all regarding bigger schools have more advantage comments. It will only be the 435 time on this site. Let the berating begin.


I do not have a dog in this fight. I have no special interest, at all. It is not about making it to State. I could care less about making it to State. I just like to watch good basketball. 3 classes will make the game more competitive (less 30 point blow outs). It will actually improve skills at the mid-level.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:01 am

The Schwab wrote:I would say it's more about money than about kids, I don't think the driving force behind it is completely based on money. Here are some thoughts on why I feel the NDHSAA board is fighting the 3 class so hard.

1. It would mess up the 3 straight weekends of state tournaments, you would either have to play both boys and girls class b and a on the same weekend like the would AA or you'd have to have to take a lot longer for state tournaments.
2. They are afraid of lawsuits by schools without defined district lines if they were to be automatically bumped up a class (which a couple of the plans have had as part of them)
3. They are afraid that the operating cost of running 16 extra regional tournament would outweigh the profits generated by those tournaments.
4. If it had to include volleyball, they would have to change their current state volleyball tournament set up. You can't play 3 games in the same facility at the same time (maybe the Bismarck Events Center could do that though)

5th and most important- no one who is currently on the board wants it, people look at the final night attendance of the state class B and say "we can't mess with this, look at this atmosphere".

Can you imagine what the attendance would look like if you had 8 small schools in a tournament? The entire towns would shut down and you would have people from towns that didn't make it that would go watch just like they did before. I realize that there are still people that go every year, but that number is shrinking.

The NDHSAA board is there to serve the members of the association, when a plan passes the district chairs meeting with a 14-2 vote (and the only 2 voting no did so because of the quick time frame for implementation) and the board chooses not to even discuss it tells me that people on the board have their own agendas. I realize that it didn't include volleyball, how hard would it be to put the word VOLLEYBALL in the plan? It wouldn't be

I realize that there is more that goes into these decisions, but if you are an association made up of schools in North Dakota, shouldn't you try to organize it how those schools want? Maybe I'm way off on this.

I 100 percent agree with the fact that they are student-athletes, the student should always come first. If we were really worried about seat time, would we require so many state tests? Would we cut down the number of times kids leave for Vocational programs (FFA, DECA, FCCLA etc...), how about science olympiad and science fair? I have a feeling if the NDHSAA's reasoning was seat time for kids, they wouldn't have set up a AA football class that plays cross-state games during the regular season.

I love class B basketball as much as anyone in the state, however, to say it isn't a broken system is wrong. Will I still go to the class B tournament every single year even if nothing changes? You bet your butt I will.


The private schools would be ashamed to sue. Why would they not want to play in the most competitive league they can? It would be embarrassing to dominate against the smaller rural schools. Yes, metro schools (no matter the size) have advantages.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:36 pm

Sportsrube wrote:Schwab basically answered the question, but I believe the NDHSAA is afraid that the Class B Tourny would not bring in the TV revenue that it does now if there was a 3 class system. The tournament scheduling could be worked out, but I don't know if they could sell the TV rights to 2 extra tournaments (1 girls, 1 boys) and if they don't televise all state BB tournaments and only televise 1 or 2 they would open themselves up to lawsuits, etc...I also believe they are afraid of being sued if all schools without defined boundaries have to play in the middle or top division. (This is the "rule" in most other states, not sure how they survived without being sued.) Right now the Class B Boys BB Tournament is a large money maker for the NDHSAA and they don't want to do anything to jeopardize their cash cow.

Is anyone suing the NDHSAA for not televising the quarterfinals of the Class A girls tournament? They're not on TV the boys are.

If you allow opt ups most of the private schools will be in the middle class.

What other states push private schools up a class?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby justplayalready » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:14 am

Flip wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:Schwab basically answered the question, but I believe the NDHSAA is afraid that the Class B Tourny would not bring in the TV revenue that it does now if there was a 3 class system. The tournament scheduling could be worked out, but I don't know if they could sell the TV rights to 2 extra tournaments (1 girls, 1 boys) and if they don't televise all state BB tournaments and only televise 1 or 2 they would open themselves up to lawsuits, etc...I also believe they are afraid of being sued if all schools without defined boundaries have to play in the middle or top division. (This is the "rule" in most other states, not sure how they survived without being sued.) Right now the Class B Boys BB Tournament is a large money maker for the NDHSAA and they don't want to do anything to jeopardize their cash cow.

Is anyone suing the NDHSAA for not televising the quarterfinals of the Class A girls tournament? They're not on TV the boys are.


Were the A games on WDAZ weather channel???Were they on regular ABC??? I know I would have rather watched R3 boys on BEK than the regular ABC programming(which I didn't watch)..

I guess well see how the cash cow does as it's really likely that we'll see Minot, Fargo, Bismarck and Dickinson all in it...More population should equal more $$$ right?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby whine » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:55 am

From what I understand the contract with WDAY states they are mandated by the NDHSAA to produce boys and girls semifinals action and boys and girls state championship games only. Any games produced beyond that is totally up to WDAY.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:31 am

Flying Wallenda wrote:
classB4ever wrote:Following is how Region championship games would look using current class B system and current poll:
Region 1 Championship game - Oak Grove vs. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood.
Region 2 Championship game - Thompson vs. Hillsboro-Central Valley
Region 3 Championship game - Carrington vs. Edgley-Kulm-Montpelier
Region 4 Championship game - St. John vs. Dunseith
Region 5 Championship game - Shiloh Christian vs. Solen
Region 6 Championship game - Bishop Ryan vs. Mohall-Lansford-Sherwood
Region 7 Championship game - Dickinson Trinity vs. Beulah
Region 8 Championship game - Stanley vs. New Town

Here's how they would look using the system outlined above in this topic having 4 regions for A and 4 regions for B each sending a team to 8 team state tournament:
Region 1A (Current regions 1 & 2 enrollment 151+ and PS) Oak Grove vs. HCV
Region 1B (Current regions 1 & 2 enrollment 150-) Wyndmere Lidgerwood vs. Thompson
Region 2A (Current regions 3 & 4 enrollment 151+ and PS) Carrington vs. Dunseith
Region 2B (Current regions 3 & 4 enrollment 150-) Edgley-Kulm-Montpelier vs. St. John
Region 3A (Current regions 5 & 6 enrollment 150+ and PS) Shiloh Christian vs. Bishop Ryan
Region 3B (Current regions 5 & 6 enrollment 150-) Solen vs. Mohall-Lansford-Sherwood
Region 4A (Current regions 7 & 8 enrollment 150+ and PS) Dickinson Trinity vs. Stanley
Region 4B (Current regions 7 & 8 enrollment 150-) Hettinger-Scranton vs. Powers Lake

Here's predicting the 2018 state tournament using past history and current poll:
Region 1 Champ - Oak Grove = 50%
Region 2 Champ - HCV or Grafton > 57%
Region 3 Champ - Carrington = 50%
Region 4 Champ - St. John = 50%
Region 5 Champ - Shiloh Christian > 75%
Region 6 Champ - Bishop Ryan > 58%
Region 7 Champ - Dickinson Trinity or Beulah > 81%
Region 8 Champ - Stanley > 70%

Explain “using past history and the poll” to me? Thompson is ranked #4 in the current poll from region 2- why aren’t they favored?


These predictions were early on in the year (3rd Poll).
Last edited by classB4ever on Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:34 am

classB4ever wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:Explain “using past history and the poll” to me? Thompson is ranked #4 in the current poll from region 2- why aren’t they favored?


Using an average over 21 year period
Region 2 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region 2 Champs Over 21 Years
Big Schools = 12 57.14%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 9 42.86%

For what it's worth, I think Thompson has a great chance. Was just giving history of each region.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:09 am

B Historian wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
Here's where the problem has always been. Are the same teams going because they are simply better athletes and better coached? There is surely some truth to this.

There is also truth that teams are traveling 50 - 60 miles a night, to and from these same tournaments. They get home later, get up earlier. There are smaller advantages of having these tournaments in your home towns.

The system we have been discussing has little chance of ever seeing the light of day. I think it would really help level the playing field and bring back quality basketball. The hybrid system would guarantee quality regions and a fun state tournament.


I agree your "gate keeper" analogy. However- and this may sound harsh- but sometimes a town's best isn't good enough. Just because a community has a once in a generation talent doesn't mean a trip to state is a birthright. It's hard to get to the State B and that is a big part of the charm of it. Back in the 70's and 80's when there were over 200 teams it was even harder to do.

I don't agree with the your premise that the state tournament is stale and predictable. Yes, we tend to have private schools and large schools taking 4-5 spots but every year there are small schools in it as well. Last year we had Ellendale (small and first appearance in 32 years), Stanley (large but first appearance in 79 years) and TLMM (small) in the tournament. Then there was Ellendale knocking off Trinity on the last second shot and a great championship game played before a packed house. The year before Northern Cass (first ever appearance) Strasburg-Zeeland (very small) and Kenmare (first appearance in 28 years) were in it. I think the last few tournaments have been a perfect mix and far from stale and boring.

The location for region tournaments will always be something people complain about.


In regards to the above bold, I don't think it has become stale, I do think it has become a bit predictable. (Apologies B-Historian for not putting all the quote in here. Just didn't want it to be too long.)

Wanted to bring to light something I noticed and that's the location of the region tournaments this year. It seems that change is possible. I don't believe any of the tourneys are in the home town of a participant in the championship or semi's. Maybe 1. IMHO, that is a big improvement.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:25 pm

classB4ever wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:
classB4ever wrote:Following is how Region championship games would look using current class B system and current poll:
Region 1 Championship game - Oak Grove vs. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood.
Region 2 Championship game - Thompson vs. Hillsboro-Central Valley
Region 3 Championship game - Carrington vs. Edgley-Kulm-Montpelier
Region 4 Championship game - St. John vs. Dunseith
Region 5 Championship game - Shiloh Christian vs. Solen
Region 6 Championship game - Bishop Ryan vs. Mohall-Lansford-Sherwood
Region 7 Championship game - Dickinson Trinity vs. Beulah
Region 8 Championship game - Stanley vs. New Town

Here's how they would look using the system outlined above in this topic having 4 regions for A and 4 regions for B each sending a team to 8 team state tournament:
Region 1A (Current regions 1 & 2 enrollment 151+ and PS) Oak Grove vs. HCV
Region 1B (Current regions 1 & 2 enrollment 150-) Wyndmere Lidgerwood vs. Thompson
Region 2A (Current regions 3 & 4 enrollment 151+ and PS) Carrington vs. Dunseith
Region 2B (Current regions 3 & 4 enrollment 150-) Edgley-Kulm-Montpelier vs. St. John
Region 3A (Current regions 5 & 6 enrollment 150+ and PS) Shiloh Christian vs. Bishop Ryan
Region 3B (Current regions 5 & 6 enrollment 150-) Solen vs. Mohall-Lansford-Sherwood
Region 4A (Current regions 7 & 8 enrollment 150+ and PS) Dickinson Trinity vs. Stanley
Region 4B (Current regions 7 & 8 enrollment 150-) Hettinger-Scranton vs. Powers Lake

Here's predicting the 2018 state tournament using past history and current poll:
Region 1 Champ - Oak Grove = 50%
Region 2 Champ - HCV or Grafton > 57%
Region 3 Champ - Carrington = 50%
Region 4 Champ - St. John = 50%
Region 5 Champ - Shiloh Christian > 75%
Region 6 Champ - Bishop Ryan > 58%
Region 7 Champ - Dickinson Trinity or Beulah > 81%
Region 8 Champ - Stanley > 70%

Explain “using past history and the poll” to me? Thompson is ranked #4 in the current poll from region 2- why aren’t they favored?


These predictions were early on in the year (3rd Poll).


If you go 8 for 8 that will be impressive!
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