3 class system

The Buzz on Class B.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:38 pm

I have followed this conversation for a long time, many years, and it has shifted. Supporters of three classes used to want the middle class to be quite small, and made up of the very largest B schools plus the private schools.

Now it seems like people want a big group to move to the middle division, leaving a small number of small schools to play for their own title. I’m just wondering, what has changed?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:44 pm

I don't know if I've changed, but I would like ~ 20 in AA, 32 in A, and the rest in B.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby winner-within » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:58 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
boblee wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
boblee wrote:You can't whine about travel and complain about the two class system.


Please show an example of someone doing this.

In numerous ideas laid out, including up thread, travel would not change.


How would travel not change? I've been at the state meetings when it has been brought up. Travel WOULD change.


Because teams would not be required to just play teams in their division. All the schedules could basically remain the same, just the postseason tournaments would be different.


boy, that would be fun....
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:36 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:I have followed this conversation for a long time, many years, and it has shifted. Supporters of three classes used to want the middle class to be quite small, and made up of the very largest B schools plus the private schools.

Now it seems like people want a big group to move to the middle division, leaving a small number of small schools to play for their own title. I’m just wondering, what has changed?


I am not sure I can say I have ever argued for what the size of a particular class should be. The mistake I made in the past was focussing on measuring the health of the class b division based on the state tournament. Huge mistake. After being exposed to other levels of play in other states, I see how playing against teams on the same level is very good for the game in general. I think I have seen a good (not great) SD A team (17-3; ave win +14 ppg) who would beat St. John (currently ranked #1; last undefeated B team to receive a loss; ave win +27 ppg) 8/10 games. I mention the point differential because that is how competitive the level of play is. The middle division in SD is just much more competitive. The SD team I mentioned is Miller. They are also a smaller school than St John. I would even go as far to say that if a team like St John was in Miller's region of 7 teams, St John would be a #4 seed in the region tournament.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:34 am

winner-within wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
boblee wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
boblee wrote:You can't whine about travel and complain about the two class system.


Please show an example of someone doing this.

In numerous ideas laid out, including up thread, travel would not change.


How would travel not change? I've been at the state meetings when it has been brought up. Travel WOULD change.


Because teams would not be required to just play teams in their division. All the schedules could basically remain the same, just the postseason tournaments would be different.


boy, that would be fun....


I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but having like sized schools play each other on neutral floors for the right to advance on is what high school athletics should be about.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:36 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:I have followed this conversation for a long time, many years, and it has shifted. Supporters of three classes used to want the middle class to be quite small, and made up of the very largest B schools plus the private schools.

Now it seems like people want a big group to move to the middle division, leaving a small number of small schools to play for their own title. I’m just wondering, what has changed?


As you stated, we have been discussing this for quite some time. Numerous ideas have been bounced around over the years and the 20-32-the rest, with 4 regional tourneys in A & B divisions, each sending 4 teams to 8 team state tourney was the latest put out there on this thread. The thought process has been addressing various arguments over the years against the 3 class proposals. Travel was brought up as an argument, but as stated by ndlionsfan & flip earlier, the scheduling would stay exactly the same, or even easier as a few new schools would be added in some regions which would open cross division play and less travel for some schools. Serious question, would you consider this to be a big middle division and small lower division?

Also, another argument brought up is "If you change the boys, you have to change girl's bb and volleyball." Addressing this, would like to point out that some regions already have different district and regional play for boys and girls. Region 4 has a super regional for girl's volleyball and district play for boy's and girl's basketball. It seems to me that the NDHSAA doesn't care what each region does for their district/region tournaments as long as they have 8 teams represented at state. So why is this an argument? Have asked earlier and perhaps you can answer why the same changes have to be made across the board? Is it a financial or logistical reason? Thanks.

BISONFAN18 wrote:I am not sure I can say I have ever argued for what the size of a particular class should be. The mistake I made in the past was focussing on measuring the health of the class b division based on the state tournament. Huge mistake. After being exposed to other levels of play in other states, I see how playing against teams on the same level is very good for the game in general. I think I have seen a good (not great) SD A team (17-3; ave win +14 ppg) who would beat St. John (currently ranked #1; last undefeated B team to receive a loss; ave win +27 ppg) 8/10 games. I mention the point differential because that is how competitive the level of play is. The middle division in SD is just much more competitive. The SD team I mentioned is Winner. They are also a smaller school than St John. I would even go as far to say that if a team like St John was in Winner's region of 7 teams, St John would be a #4 seed in the region tournament.


Very interesting post. Thanks for the insight.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby scc » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:04 pm

classB4ever wrote:
Bisonguy06 wrote:I have followed this conversation for a long time, many years, and it has shifted. Supporters of three classes used to want the middle class to be quite small, and made up of the very largest B schools plus the private schools.

Now it seems like people want a big group to move to the middle division, leaving a small number of small schools to play for their own title. I’m just wondering, what has changed?


As you stated, we have been discussing this for quite some time. Numerous ideas have been bounced around over the years and the 20-32-the rest, with 4 regional tourneys in A & B divisions, each sending 4 teams to 8 team state tourney was the latest put out there on this thread. The thought process has been addressing various arguments over the years against the 3 class proposals. Travel was brought up as an argument, but as stated by ndlionsfan & flip earlier, the scheduling would stay exactly the same, or even easier as a few new schools would be added in some regions which would open cross division play and less travel for some schools. Serious question, would you consider this to be a big middle division and small lower division?

Also, another argument brought up is "If you change the boys, you have to change girl's bb and volleyball." Addressing this, would like to point out that some regions already have different district and regional play for boys and girls. Region 4 has a super regional for girl's volleyball and district play for boy's and girl's basketball. It seems to me that the NDHSAA doesn't care what each region does for their district/region tournaments as long as they have 8 teams represented at state. So why is this an argument? Have asked earlier and perhaps you can answer why the same changes have to be made across the board? Is it a financial or logistical reason? Thanks.

BISONFAN18 wrote:I am not sure I can say I have ever argued for what the size of a particular class should be. The mistake I made in the past was focussing on measuring the health of the class b division based on the state tournament. Huge mistake. After being exposed to other levels of play in other states, I see how playing against teams on the same level is very good for the game in general. I think I have seen a good (not great) SD A team (17-3; ave win +14 ppg) who would beat St. John (currently ranked #1; last undefeated B team to receive a loss; ave win +27 ppg) 8/10 games. I mention the point differential because that is how competitive the level of play is. The middle division in SD is just much more competitive. The SD team I mentioned is Winner. They are also a smaller school than St John. I would even go as far to say that if a team like St John was in Winner's region of 7 teams, St John would be a #4 seed in the region tournament.


Very interesting post. Thanks for the insight.


They do care about the format of everything from the Region Quarterfinals through the State Finals. That's why you see an inconsistency prior to Region Quarterfinal play.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:15 pm

ClassB4ever,

I support two classes of basketball, as you know.

That being said, if I were to put forth my best 3 class plan, it would look like this:

I would have 16-20 schools in the top division (allowing opt-ups)
I would have 16-20 schools in the middle division (allowing opt-ups)
I would have the remainder in the 3rd division.

I think 32 schools in the middle division is too big. Why? Because if you line up all the 'B' schools based on enrollment, schools 20 through 50 are going to look virtually identical. To force a dividing line through that group at the #32 goes against the goal, stated by Schwab above, of having like-sized schools competing against each other for a title.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:41 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:ClassB4ever,

I support two classes of basketball, as you know.

That being said, if I were to put forth my best 3 class plan, it would look like this:

I would have 16-20 schools in the top division (allowing opt-ups)
I would have 16-20 schools in the middle division (allowing opt-ups)
I would have the remainder in the 3rd division.

I think 32 schools in the middle division is too big. Why? Because if you line up all the 'B' schools based on enrollment, schools 20 through 50 are going to look virtually identical. To force a dividing line through that group at the #32 goes against the goal, stated by Schwab above, of having like-sized schools competing against each other for a title.


I would say a good middle class would have to be about 40% of what ND has now (108). So at least 40 schools in that middle division. That is mirroring the percentage of what SD has in their middle class. The tragedy here is that ND is down to 108 teams in B. SD went to 3 classes in the 90's and managed to keep over 130 teams competing (A+B). I know it is not a huge difference but running 2 levels of competition with 130 teams looks much more reasonable than 108. This change is 25 years too late. I just hope it turns around before it becomes worse.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:53 pm

Always like to have the figures when discussing. Thought I would put up South Dakota's school list with enrollments. What I found was they have AA - 17 schools, A - 55 schools, B - 84 schools for a total of 156 teams. Not sure how co-ops, etc. work, so below listed are the top 180 for enrollment. In beginning of 2017 they were discussing splitting the B class and having 4 classes. It would appear their splits would happen around 600 for AA and 120 for A. Just for discussion.

*Note: Following are 9-12 enrollments. SD uses 9-11 enrollment for determining classes. Class B is 90 and below. Class A is around 490 and below, based on 9-11. However, will leave 9-12 for apples to apples comparison to ND discussion.

No. SD School Name Grades 9-12
1 Roosevelt High School 2298
2 Lincoln High School 1979
3 Washington High School 1949
4 Central Hi Sch 1871
5 Stevens Hi Sch 1600
6 Central High School 1263
7 Watertown High School 1232
8 Brandon Valley Hi Sch 1067
9 Yankton Hi Sch 901
10 Brookings Hi Sch 885
11 Harrisburg High School 859
12 Mitchell High School 772
13 O`Gorman High School 754
14 T F Riggs High School 753
15 Huron High School 736
16 Douglas High School 714
17 Sturgis Brown HS 684
18 Spearfish High School 611
19 Tea Area High School 449
20 Todd County HS 422
21 West Central Hi Sch 402
22 Vermillion High School 389
23 Dakota Valley High School 385
24 Pine Ridge High School 381
25 Rapid City HS 375
26 Madison High School 372
27 Belle Fourche HS 371
28 Milbank High School 335
29 New Technology High School 331
30 Little Wound Hi Sch 321
31 Lennox High School 284
32 St. Thomas More High Sch 282
33 Dell Rapids High School 279
34 Flandreau Indian Hi Sch 276
35 Canton High School 271
36 Hot Springs Hi Sch 265
37 St. Francis High Sch 256
38 SF Christian Hi Sch 254
39 C-EB High School 250
40 Tri-Valley High School 246
41 Custer High School 242
42 Chamberlain High School 239
43 Wagner High School 225
44 Beresford High School 225
45 Sisseton High School 221
46 Red Cloud High School 219
47 Mobridge High School 210
48 Sioux Valley High School 206
49 Lead-Deadwood High School 200
50 Winner High School 195
51 Hamlin Hi Sch 189
52 Elk Point Jefferson High School 185
53 Groton Area High School 174
54 Flandreau High Sch 165
55 Chester Area Cyber School 161
56 Bennett County High School 160
57 Redfield High School 160
58 Webster Area High School 158
59 Hill City High School 153
60 Tiospa Zina Hi Sch 153
61 Crow Creek Hi Sch 151
62 Parkston High School 149
63 RONCALLI HIGH SCHOOL 146
64 Baltic High School 144
65 Garretson High School 142
66 Deuel High School 140
67 Stanley County High School 139
68 Bon Homme High School 137
69 Great Plains Luth Hi Sch 134
70 McLaughlin High School 132
71 McCook Central Hi Sch 123
72 R. C. Christian Hi Sch 120
73 Platte-Geddes H.S 116
74 Parker High School 116
75 Miller High School 114
76 Viborg-Hurley High School 110
77 Gregory High School 109
78 Chester Area High School 108
79 White River High School 108
80 Oglala Lakota County Virtual High School 108
81 Lyman High School 107
82 Howard Hi Sch 105
83 Dupree Hi Sch 104
84 Wolsey-Wessington High School 103
85 Elkton High School 101
86 Irene-Wakonda High School 101
87 Ipswich Hi Sch 101
88 Deubrook High School 100
89 Newell High School 99
90 Hanson High School 99
91 Britton-Hecla High School 99
92 Gayville-Volin Hi Sch 99
93 Bridgewater-Emery High School 98
94 Philip High School 97
95 Warner Hi Sch 96
96 De Smet High School 94
97 Timber Lake High School 9-12 89
98 Lower Brule Hi Sch 88
99 Lead-Deadwood Career & Tech Ed 87
100 Scotland High School 86
101 Avon High School 85
102 Kadoka Area HS 84
103 Marty Hi Sch 83
104 Waverly/South Shore High School 82
105 Highmore-Harrold High School 81
106 Lemmon High School 81
107 Plankinton High School 80
108 Castlewood High School 80
109 New Underwood Hi Sch 79
110 Alcester-Hudson High School 79
111 Sully Buttes High School 77
112 Freeman High School 75
113 Arlington High School 75
114 Wall High School 75
115 Gettysburg High School 75
116 Wilmot Hi Sch 75
117 Kimball High School 74
118 Colome High School 74
119 Colman-Egan Hi Sch 73
120 Ethan High School 72
121 Harding County High School 72
122 Corsica-Stickney High School 71
123 Estelline High School 69
124 Sunshine Bible Hi Sch 69
125 Montrose High School 69
126 Rosholt High School 69
127 Mount Vernon High School 68
128 Faulkton Hi Sch 68
129 Burke High School 66
130 Crazy Horse Hi Sch 66
131 Wessington Springs Hi Sch 66
132 Northwestern High School 66
133 Iroquois High School 65
134 Woonsocket High School 65
135 Florence High School 64
136 Oelrichs High School 64
137 Selby Hi Sch 64
138 Andes Central High School 63
139 Clark High School 63
140 St. Marys High School 63
141 Langford Area HS 62
142 James Valley Chr Hi Sch 61
143 Faith High School 61
144 C-EB E.A.G.L.E. Center High School 59
145 Canistota High School 59
146 Frederick High School 58
147 Menno High School 58
148 Aberdeen Christian HS 56
149 Lake Preston High School 55
150 Armour High School 54
151 Alternative School 54
152 McCrossan High School 54
153 Henry High School 53
154 Eureka High School 53
156 Takini High School 53
157 Marion High School 51
158 Willow Lake Hi Sch 50
159 Herreid Hi Sch 49
160 LifeScape Children's Specialty School 48
161 Hitchcock-Tulare HS 48
162 Edmunds Central Hi Sch 46
163 Wakpala High School 45
164 Waubay Hi Sch 45
165 Sanborn Central High School 45
166 McIntosh High School 44
167 Edgemont High School 44
168 Jones County HS 44
169 Summit High School 44
170 Bison High School 43
171 Aurora Plains Academy High School 42
172 Community Campus 42
173 Freeman Academy Hi Sch 40
174 Mitchell Christian HS 38
175 Tripp-Delmont High School 38
176 Rutland Hi Sch 38
177 Centerville Hi Sch 37
178 White Lake High School 36
179 Oldham-Ramona High School 36
180 Tiospaye Topa 9-12 35
Last edited by classB4ever on Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:58 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:14 pm

classB4ever wrote:Always like to have the figures when discussing. Thought I would put up South Dakota's school list with enrollments. What I found was they have AA - 17 schools, A - 55 schools, B - 84 schools for a total of 156 teams. Not sure how co-ops, etc. work, so below listed are the top 200 for enrollment. In beginning of 2017 they were discussing splitting the B class and having 4 classes. It would appear their splits would happen around 600 for AA and 120 for A. Just for discussion.


90 and below (grades 9-11) is class B.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:16 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
90 and below is class B.


Do you know the cutoff for AA?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:24 pm

classB4ever wrote:
BISONFAN18 wrote:
90 and below is class B.


Do you know the cutoff for AA?


Spearfish is the smallest AA on the list you provided. I seen the cutoff criteria before but cannot find it again. I know it was 400 something. Maybe 499???
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:28 pm

I should also mention that I think that grades 9-11 are considered in SD.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:44 pm

So, will take a shot at this. Following are enrollments and ratios of biggest schools to smallest schools in SD 3 class system and proposed "hybrid" system on this thread. I think this is the best way to determine how well the classes are divided. The lower the ratio, the more competitive the class should be.

SD AA: 2298 - 611 for 3.8:1
SD A: 449 - 90 for 5:1
SD B: 90 - 45 for 2:1

Proposed ND system:

East AA: 1458 - 476 for 3:1
West AA: 1900 - 529 for 3.6:1
1A: 339 - 140 for 2.4:1 OG opting up
2A: 268 - 132 for 2:1
3A: 397 - 166 for 2.3:1 BR opting up
4A: 261 - 140 for 1.9:1 SC opting up
1B: 138 - 54 for 2.6:1
2B: 129 - 49 for 2.6:1
3B: 130 - 48 for 2.7:1
4B: 145 - 32 for 4.5:1
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:52 pm

classB4ever wrote:So, will take a shot at this. Following are enrollments and ratios of biggest schools to smallest schools in SD 3 class system and proposed "hybrid" system on this thread. I think this is the best way to determine how well the classes are divided. The lower the ratio, the more competitive the class should be.

SD AA: 2298 - 611 for 3.8:1
SD A: 449 - 90 for 5:1
SD B: 90 - 45 for 2:1

Proposed ND system:

East AA: 1458 - 476 for 3:1
West AA: 1900 - 529 for 3.6:1
1A: 339 - 140 for 2.4:1 OG opting up
2A: 268 - 132 for 2:1
3A: 397 - 166 for 2.3:1 BR opting up
4A: 261 - 140 for 1.9:1 SC opting up
1B: 138 - 54 for 2.6:1
2B: 129 - 49 for 2.6:1
3B: 130 - 48 for 2.7:1
4B: 145 - 32 for 4.5:1


I would not put too much emphasis on the lower ratio the better basketball theory. There are some small A schools that do very well against the bigger A schools in the SD middle division. I would say that it would matter more in the B division though. It is not perfect but overall I think it makes the game better.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:55 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
I would not put too much emphasis on the lower ratio the better basketball theory. There are some small A schools that do very well against the bigger A schools in the SD middle division. I would say that it would matter more in the B division though. It is not perfect but overall I think it makes the game better.


Fair points. Thanks for input and discussion.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:09 pm

South Dakota has 156 teams in 3 classes.
North Dakota has 129 teams in 2 classes.

Thus, the proposal here is to borrow the plan for a three class system, with a new class of roughly 30 teams in the middle, from a state that has 27 more teams than we do.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:09 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:South Dakota has 156 teams in 3 classes.
North Dakota has 129 teams in 2 classes.

Thus, the proposal here is to borrow the plan for a three class system, with a new class of roughly 30 teams in the middle, from a state that has 27 more teams than we do.


Too bad it was not done 25 years ago. Maybe ND would have 150 + teams still playing and a middle division producing much better basketball than what the ND B is putting out now.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:37 pm

classB4ever wrote:Always like to have the figures when discussing. Thought I would put up South Dakota's school list with enrollments. What I found was they have AA - 17 schools, A - 55 schools, B - 84 schools for a total of 156 teams. Not sure how co-ops, etc. work, so below listed are the top 200 for enrollment. In beginning of 2017 they were discussing splitting the B class and having 4 classes. It would appear their splits would happen around 600 for AA and 120 for A. Just for discussion.
.
.
.

Never realized the makeup of SD is so much different than ND. I guess the only "big" towns are Sioux Falls and Rapid City. They have a nice group of to choose a middle class.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:17 am

I was just to SD activities association web site and was briefly over it but enrollment figures on their web site is based grades 9 through 11 and I believe there class b starts at 90 but it based on 9-11 enrollment that is done every two years. So if you add in 12 grade you would come up with cut off about 120 students from grades 9 through 12. This would mirror our enrollment cut off with the plan shown in this thread. They have 3 classes of basketball and they show having 3 separate tournaments. They do have more schools than we do which should be the case since they have more population than us by about by 140,000 people or about 20% more population so they should then being equal have about 20% more schools and that is pretty much the case. Class b has 82 teams with 8 regions with 9 to 11 schools per region; Class A has 52 teams with 8 regions and 5 to 7 teams per region; Class AA has 18 teams with 4 regions but regions are spread out over whole state and they have 4 to 5 teams per region. This was just done on boys basketball and there may be more things that I have missed on this. The proposed plan on this thread quickly looking at South Dakota has about same general separation of schools with difference being we have less schools so we have less A and B schools than they do so we have less regions planned but with about same number schools in the regions.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:42 am

Flip wrote:
classB4ever wrote:Always like to have the figures when discussing. Thought I would put up South Dakota's school list with enrollments. What I found was they have AA - 17 schools, A - 55 schools, B - 84 schools for a total of 156 teams. Not sure how co-ops, etc. work, so below listed are the top 200 for enrollment. In beginning of 2017 they were discussing splitting the B class and having 4 classes. It would appear their splits would happen around 600 for AA and 120 for A. Just for discussion.
.
.
.

Never realized the makeup of SD is so much different than ND. I guess the only "big" towns are Sioux Falls and Rapid City. They have a nice group of to choose a middle class.


Agree here. North Dakota's 'middle' is small. South Dakota has 31 schools with enrollment between 200 & 450 in grades 9-12. I don't think North Dakota has half that number. It's roughly the range that comprises AA football, and AA football was played with just ten teams in that division this year.

Many would say we need a middle division anyway. That's fine. Let's just acknowledge that North Dakota's 'middle' has fewer teams by comparison.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:44 am

Flip wrote:Never realized the makeup of SD is so much different than ND. I guess the only "big" towns are Sioux Falls and Rapid City. They have a nice group of to choose a middle class.


Was surprised by this as well. Read comments from past players and refs on a SD discussion board concerning possibly going to 4 classes. They discussed how bad the first round of tournaments were. 40 point blow outs. Their landscape (more middle sized towns) does make it easier for a 3 class.

Bisonguy06 wrote:South Dakota has 156 teams in 3 classes.
North Dakota has 129 teams in 2 classes.

Thus, the proposal here is to borrow the plan for a three class system, with a new class of roughly 30 teams in the middle, from a state that has 27 more teams than we do.


A bit confused. Up thread, you stated that 32 was too big for the proposed middle class in ND. Now you are stating we are "borrowing" from a plan with 27 more teams. Also, they have 3 classes, 4 region AA, 8 region A and 8 region B. They play 3 state tourneys. What we have been throwing around is not at all like this. However, will add "borrowing from SD" as another argument against.

Bisonguy06 wrote:Many would say we need a middle division anyway. That's fine. Let's just acknowledge that North Dakota's 'middle' has fewer teams by comparison.


As stated above, certainly agree. SD does have better basis for 3 classes.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:02 am

Bottom line is that the region reps voted unanimously in favor of 3 classes and the NDHSAA needs to step up and deliver. The main reason I brought up SD is because their middle class is very good basketball; proof that 3 classes does not water down the sport or give everyone participant ribbons.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:03 pm

In each of the four quarterfinal matchups today, the smaller school won.
Bisonguy06
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