3 class system

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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:42 am

If the QRF is used then I could see the middle class getting by with long trips...also doesn't mean that those middle class schools don't schedule some lower class teams (or in a few instances upper class teams) from their area. It opens up possibilities...

There is intrigue in this...I'm on the fence on the issue being as I would be affected but I see pros and cons across the board.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby winner-within » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:44 am

our biggest loop hold in ND is the vast distance from here to there.....once again it will never be Class A, Class B, Class C.....my point being, even if you get creative and change it up to look more modern .... Class AA, Class A, and Class B.....well then you are still limited to only so many High Schools....literally

when I see the results of this game....#4 AA Perham (MN) vs. #4 Oak Grove (ND) (((using only as example for this topic))) ...(note the 2A in one State vs Class B in one State) played today...well then you know hands down there is a situation where ND Class B isn't ND Class B of 20 yrs ago or even 10 yrs ago.... its a situation where ND Class B is like many have said, it has become "lets keep the $$$$ thing going"....its not even complacency (or is it)....its simply "lets leave it alone" for the Fans?....don't think so....I will say it like this...as lights have gotten brighter in these gyms and the picture becomes more clear.... its not that there has to be a 3 class system in ND Basketball (750k pop.) to make it more presentable.....because a 4 class system in a State with 5.5 million pop. I'm sure is ridiculed also.....

put it this way!....and this is or isn't the problem but it is the reality.... the majority believe in every State that when sports are done your senior year.......they're done!
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:55 pm

Flip wrote:
B Historian wrote:As I alluded to in my post above this one, travel would be a huge issue for a new Class A. If there was for example a 32 team Class A split into four regions, then the assumption would be that each team would play every other team within it's region both home and away (14 games). You are looking at extensive travel for many schools, some match ups requiring 300 mile round trips for a "regional" game. With GBB and volleyball also facing similar schedules this would be very tough for many schools.

I don't believe they would ever require a home and away game with every team. My suggestion would be to seed your region tournament on QRF and require no region games.

The next issue is state tournament scheduling. The current setup works very well. It's TV friendly and provides exposure for everyone. How do you go about scheduling another entire class? You can't combine the A and B tournaments in the same location on the same weekend: there is no town in the state with enough hotel space. The only scheduling setup that would work is to have the girls A & B tournaments the first weekend in March in different locations, then the Super AA the second weekend and the boys A & B tournaments in different locations the third weekend in March. In this scenario someone is going to left out of the TV coverage. It's also quite possible that attendance suffers greatly as well.

How does SD do it? They have fewer big towns than ND. Or any state? I think ND is the only state to have 2 classes.


100% agree with above bold. In fact, it could be easier and more exciting as it opens up scheduling to play against teams they may have never had a chance to play before. Worst case scenario would be playing the same teams they are playing in current system. Increased travel should NOT be an issue in a plan like this.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:10 pm

The above statement that works for tv and gives exposure to everyone is the problem why we haven't changed even addressed this problem. Let me start with it fits with the big tv owners in the state for their programing and its something there willing to pay for. So were talking about money to fund the Activities Association like it has grown into. Second the point one that gets me the most is gives exposure for everyone how can you say that. When we have class b state tournament dominated by about 20 schools that just compete at state tournament every couple of years. How about the 60 schools that haven't even been to regional final in maybe 20 to 30 years at the best. There is no exposure for these schools or participants on state or regional level and you expect them to keep just showing up each year compete. Then you wonder why participation is down and even interest in basketball is down. Getting back to tv coverage somebody is going to be missed would have been the case 10 to 15 years ago but I don't believe that now. First is we have likes of Bek tv for high school sports and now they have even there own tv outlet in Krdk which is part of satellite providers service. Also with ability of streaming I betting even some of Radio stations could get where we may have opportunities to get all the games on tv. So I think there are options out there now and even more because if there's possibility of making some money somebody will step forward. The third point against is scheduling but here again everyone is caught up with how things are scheduled now. If were expanding classes we also could expand the season to help in scheduling and would also help with the traveling time because could have fewer games per week with expanded season. Like I have said the most reasons for not changing is coming from group that have benefitted the most under the current plan.
Schools should also be adjusted for size by qualifier effect. The size of the district by geographical size should be one where they are drawing there kids from. Some the rural schools and coops the size of where they are drawing kids from is that kids on teams may be playing together but may live more than 50 miles apart from each other. Not like schools that are near the large cities or in the large cities competing at class b level. This distance has major effects on development of talent and participation. There other qualifying effects that should be considered also in developing a plan.
We as state are different than other states so how we structure high school activities need to be addressed for our needs. Not how other state make up schools are. I look at states surrounding us they have addressed their needs all differently but they all do have more classes to address level of competition fairness. We have done nothing in over 50 years and last major change was we did away with a class and I think the reason for this was schools that were playing in each class belonged in other class they just combined them because of this. Also class b was so favored on state wide level from public and media that class c never got traction to come into its own. Also class b was so large then it was hard for schools to dominate the competition like it is now. They had powers then but nobody had long runs of success because of sheer numbers of games it took to get to state tournament. We had 32 districts with at least 8 teams per district with tournament one and done. Then after that we had region tournaments of 4 until they expanded it 8 teams and they were one and done. After that we had state tournament where we had no seeding so if you met tough team in opening round or played poorly you were in afternoon games if you lost. So you see it was hard to get there to state I can remember many of the rated teams in the state never ever making it to state because they would get upset in district game and the season was over. Because of this it gave hope to smaller schools and also meant many of these larger schools never reached state tournament so we had feeling that competition level was even enough so nobody dominated region year in year out. The only exception to this was region 2 in the state where we had region of very large schools overall with one school that seemed to dominate that region. That was Hillsboro with ED Byer coached team that seemed to be at state a lot and rest of state disliked. The number are less today but never have we had such dominance of class today by so few schools so something needs to be done.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby winner-within » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:55 pm

a lot of Talent again in Region 2..... definitely the most loaded Region
switching to 3 classes tomorrow....how would just this region shake down?.....no Privates in R2
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:40 am

South Dakota currently plays all 3 boys tournaments (AA, A and B) on the same weekend in different locations. For tv they rotate which one is on the local station yearly, but other ones can be found with a free online feed. South Dakota also uses Power Points to seed their tournaments, they don't require you to play everyone in your region. You could still play the same teams you play now during the regular season, just have a little different feel to tournament time and you would have like-sized schools competing against each other on a neutral floor for a chance to play in the state tournament.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Mandan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:31 pm

TV is a different world now than it used to be.. with all the subchannels available for the broadcast networks, and with networks like BEK and the Midco sports network, it feels like there would be a way to show all the tournaments even if some were at the same time. ABC has the current contract, they could show one on the main ABC and other on their "Xtra" channel.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby theman » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:01 pm

At the end of the day, if you look at the smallest 30 Class B schools by enrollment (excluding private and counting every school of a co-op), they really don't stand a chance against large schools except for a once-in-a-lifetime team that might make it to state. They truly don't stand a chance at all. That all by itself is enough to convince me that change is necessary. Legion Baseball has been working with a 3-class system and I like what they've been setting up. It's not perfect, but I think it's better than what we have.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:11 pm

Looking back at the past 25 years, it has become fairly easy to predict that about 50% of state participants will be big/private and 50% small. I think it's safe to say that those numbers will start skewing to 75% big/private and 25% small. We need to do something to change this trend and get the participation levels back up and create some excitement in these smaller communities.

One of the concerns I had in laying out the above stream proposal, is it would seem that some of these "A Regions" will be loaded with more quality teams which means some of the better teams won't make it to state while lesser teams will be coming from the "B Regions". I would like to point out that this has been happening for years in the current system. Below is the current poll which verifies this. So I don't think that this should be an argument.

NINTH POLL
Monday, February 5th

1. St. John (6) 15-0 156
2. Stanley (11) 15-0 154
3. Hillsboro-Central Valley 14-1 138
4. Thompson 14-2 106
5. Grafton 14-1 101
6. Oak Grove 13-2 91
7. Bishop Ryan 15-2 75
8. Shiloh Christian 12-3 40
9. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood 13-2 19
10. Bottineau 14-2 13
Others Receiving Votes: New Town (15-2), Beulah (11-3), Carrington (13-2), Four Winds-Minnewaukan (11-4), Maple Valley (13-1), Dunseith (11-4), Our Redeemer's (13-2).

Region 1: Oak Grove, Wyndmere-Lidgerwood, Maple Valley
Region 2: H-CV, Thompson, Grafton
Region 4: St. John, Four Winds-Minn., Dunseith
Region 6: Bishop Ryan, Bottineau, Our Redeemer's

So every year, in the past and in the future, some quality teams are not going to make state tournament no matter what system we have. That's a given.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:18 pm

B-oldtimer wrote:The above statement that works for tv and gives exposure to everyone is the problem why we haven't changed even addressed this problem. Let me start with it fits with the big tv owners in the state for their programing and its something there willing to pay for. So were talking about money to fund the Activities Association like it has grown into. Second the point one that gets me the most is gives exposure for everyone how can you say that. When we have class b state tournament dominated by about 20 schools that just compete at state tournament every couple of years. How about the 60 schools that haven't even been to regional final in maybe 20 to 30 years at the best. There is no exposure for these schools or participants on state or regional level and you expect them to keep just showing up each year compete. Then you wonder why participation is down and even interest in basketball is down. Getting back to tv coverage somebody is going to be missed would have been the case 10 to 15 years ago but I don't believe that now. First is we have likes of Bek tv for high school sports and now they have even there own tv outlet in Krdk which is part of satellite providers service. Also with ability of streaming I betting even some of Radio stations could get where we may have opportunities to get all the games on tv. So I think there are options out there now and even more because if there's possibility of making some money somebody will step forward. The third point against is scheduling but here again everyone is caught up with how things are scheduled now. If were expanding classes we also could expand the season to help in scheduling and would also help with the traveling time because could have fewer games per week with expanded season. Like I have said the most reasons for not changing is coming from group that have benefitted the most under the current plan.
Schools should also be adjusted for size by qualifier effect. The size of the district by geographical size should be one where they are drawing there kids from. Some the rural schools and coops the size of where they are drawing kids from is that kids on teams may be playing together but may live more than 50 miles apart from each other. Not like schools that are near the large cities or in the large cities competing at class b level. This distance has major effects on development of talent and participation. There other qualifying effects that should be considered also in developing a plan.
We as state are different than other states so how we structure high school activities need to be addressed for our needs. Not how other state make up schools are. I look at states surrounding us they have addressed their needs all differently but they all do have more classes to address level of competition fairness. We have done nothing in over 50 years and last major change was we did away with a class and I think the reason for this was schools that were playing in each class belonged in other class they just combined them because of this. Also class b was so favored on state wide level from public and media that class c never got traction to come into its own. Also class b was so large then it was hard for schools to dominate the competition like it is now. They had powers then but nobody had long runs of success because of sheer numbers of games it took to get to state tournament. We had 32 districts with at least 8 teams per district with tournament one and done. Then after that we had region tournaments of 4 until they expanded it 8 teams and they were one and done. After that we had state tournament where we had no seeding so if you met tough team in opening round or played poorly you were in afternoon games if you lost. So you see it was hard to get there to state I can remember many of the rated teams in the state never ever making it to state because they would get upset in district game and the season was over. Because of this it gave hope to smaller schools and also meant many of these larger schools never reached state tournament so we had feeling that competition level was even enough so nobody dominated region year in year out. The only exception to this was region 2 in the state where we had region of very large schools overall with one school that seemed to dominate that region. That was Hillsboro with ED Byer coached team that seemed to be at state a lot and rest of state disliked. The number are less today but never have we had such dominance of class today by so few schools so something needs to be done.


By exposure I mean all classes are currently featured by the same network and receive equal air time. That would be impossible in a three-class system as one network would be unable to carry two tournaments in two different locations on the same weekend.

Yes, it was more difficult to get to state back when there were 32 districts but you are wrong in stating that Hillsboro was the only team that dominated a region:

-Kenmare appeared in nine state tournaments from 1947-67 and played in five straight state title games in the 60's.

-Rugby appeared in nine state tournaments from 1940-53.

-Minot Model (private school) had 12 state tournament appearances from 1934-58.

-NE St. Mary's (private school) had 7 state tournament appearances from 1962-71.

-Fort Yates had 7 state tournament appearances from 1955-64.

I think people assume that private schools dominating is a recent phenomenon but it really isn't. I think that's because people remember the glory years of the 70's and 80's when there was little participation from private schools.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:11 am

I was not referring to 1940 to 1960 that was whole different era in Nd basketball. There was independent basketball in those times and structure of school systems were entirely different than it was today. Large portion of rural nd many kids did not go past 8 grade education. I know that for a fact because my parents just completed a eight grade education both of which earned high school through GED. If you lived in rural area if you wanted to go to high school you either had to live close enough to travel to that high school or especially in the winter you had go live in that town where that high school was and be boarded. So you see it was whole different time of how basketball was organized. I can remember my great uncle telling of teams made up in area of kids that played like in independent leagues back then and big tournament was local county tournament. Also people of my dad's age tell of how games were cancelled or you played without kids because of weather made it near impossible to play games. Yes there were dominate schools like Kenmare in the past that dominated for period of time. Rugby and FT. Yates all became class a and were that when I was young and if they were like other large schools around here they fought from going class b. St. Mary's I can remember from my youth and I can remember how they had kids from all over SW North Dakota during that time and it was beginning of private school vs public school. The private schools of that time were all in class A because in 1960's most of the private schools of class b closed with exception Oak Grove but that was small school in that time.
The time to I was referring too was 1960 to 1980's where we had basis for modern system of athletics in North Dakota. The state help schools with busing around late 1950's and early 1960
's so we had high school offered to all North Dakota students and large number of the one room schools were closed and moved into the schools that had high schools. This when we had golden age of class b basketball in the state. The people of state went to state tournament if they could or they were glued to the tv to watch the class b state tournament. All newspapers covered class b basketball starting with the districts leading to Regionals and then finally the State tournament.
I can also remember how the Grand Forks herald printed up box scores for all regular season games giving qt. scores, final score, individual scoring, and even also gave the score of the b squad game that night this at least added page to sports section. But things have changed since then number of schools are half of that, participation number are way down, and balance of competition has changed, and level of play is much better which relates back to competition where size and numbers have direct effect on this.
The thing about State tournaments is why can't we have state Tournaments more than two weeks we have whole month of March if we need to work a schedule out and even last week of February if needed. The Tv exposure doesn't mean much to bottom half of class b right now because there chance getting any of it is very small. The chances of them reaching state tournament is maybe once in lifetime and for many of the small schools and even that probably won't happen either. Even with new class the chances will be low but there will be a chance every so often for some of these schools to make it. This is what I believe we need to keep interest from kids and from public. Ps. Class b is not receiving must press anymore I see it our newspapers, and now especially from local tv they hardly cover class b sports its even hard to get the scores let alone the box scores. I wonder if we have waited to long to address our problems and this is reflection how interest has slipped enough where we don't get coverage we had.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:34 am

B Historian wrote:By exposure I mean all classes are currently featured by the same network and receive equal air time. That would be impossible in a three-class system as one network would be unable to carry two tournaments in two different locations on the same weekend.

This is false.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:50 pm

B-oldtimer wrote:I was not referring to 1940 to 1960 that was whole different era in Nd basketball. There was independent basketball in those times and structure of school systems were entirely different than it was today. Large portion of rural nd many kids did not go past 8 grade education. I know that for a fact because my parents just completed a eight grade education both of which earned high school through GED. If you lived in rural area if you wanted to go to high school you either had to live close enough to travel to that high school or especially in the winter you had go live in that town where that high school was and be boarded. So you see it was whole different time of how basketball was organized. I can remember my great uncle telling of teams made up in area of kids that played like in independent leagues back then and big tournament was local county tournament. Also people of my dad's age tell of how games were cancelled or you played without kids because of weather made it near impossible to play games. Yes there were dominate schools like Kenmare in the past that dominated for period of time. Rugby and FT. Yates all became class a and were that when I was young and if they were like other large schools around here they fought from going class b. St. Mary's I can remember from my youth and I can remember how they had kids from all over SW North Dakota during that time and it was beginning of private school vs public school. The private schools of that time were all in class A because in 1960's most of the private schools of class b closed with exception Oak Grove but that was small school in that time.
The time to I was referring too was 1960 to 1980's where we had basis for modern system of athletics in North Dakota. The state help schools with busing around late 1950's and early 1960
's so we had high school offered to all North Dakota students and large number of the one room schools were closed and moved into the schools that had high schools. This when we had golden age of class b basketball in the state. The people of state went to state tournament if they could or they were glued to the tv to watch the class b state tournament. All newspapers covered class b basketball starting with the districts leading to Regionals and then finally the State tournament.
I can also remember how the Grand Forks herald printed up box scores for all regular season games giving qt. scores, final score, individual scoring, and even also gave the score of the b squad game that night this at least added page to sports section. But things have changed since then number of schools are half of that, participation number are way down, and balance of competition has changed, and level of play is much better which relates back to competition where size and numbers have direct effect on this.
The thing about State tournaments is why can't we have state Tournaments more than two weeks we have whole month of March if we need to work a schedule out and even last week of February if needed. The Tv exposure doesn't mean much to bottom half of class b right now because there chance getting any of it is very small. The chances of them reaching state tournament is maybe once in lifetime and for many of the small schools and even that probably won't happen either. Even with new class the chances will be low but there will be a chance every so often for some of these schools to make it. This is what I believe we need to keep interest from kids and from public. Ps. Class b is not receiving must press anymore I see it our newspapers, and now especially from local tv they hardly cover class b sports its even hard to get the scores let alone the box scores. I wonder if we have waited to long to address our problems and this is reflection how interest has slipped enough where we don't get coverage we had.


My point was (is) that even though it was much harder in the past to make a state tournament, there were still programs just as dominant as there are today. It wasn't like a different team from each region was making it every year. For obvious reasons it will always be tougher for smaller schools to make it. That's simply the nature of sports. That also doesn't mean the current system is necessarily broken.

Over the last 13 years we have had 13 different state champions. During that time the following smaller schools have all made at least one appearance at state: Turtle Lake-Mercer, Strasburg-Zeeland, North Star, Flasher, New England, North Sargent, Milnor, Berthold, Mandaree, Kidder County, Richland, Trenton, Dakota Prairie, Hankinson, P-B-K, LaMoure, Barnes County North, Mott-Regent, Mandaree, Divide County and North Border. By my count 27 of the 79 schools that would likely be Class B in classB4ever's plan have made at least one state tournament appearance in the last 13 years. Some have made several. A few have also won it all. This does not seem like a broken system where it's impossible for the small schools to have a chance. I think most of the three class talk is driven by anger over Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, Shiloh Christian and Fargo Oak Grove currently being successful. As I said earlier, there have been times in the past where private schools dominated as well. That doesn't mean we need to trash the whole system because a few private schools are currently having success.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:23 am

B Historian wrote:
My point was (is) that even though it was much harder in the past to make a state tournament, there were still programs just as dominant as there are today. It wasn't like a different team from each region was making it every year. For obvious reasons it will always be tougher for smaller schools to make it. That's simply the nature of sports. That also doesn't mean the current system is necessarily broken.

Over the last 13 years we have had 13 different state champions. During that time the following smaller schools have all made at least one appearance at state: Turtle Lake-Mercer, Strasburg-Zeeland, North Star, Flasher, New England, North Sargent, Milnor, Berthold, Mandaree, Kidder County, Richland, Trenton, Dakota Prairie, Hankinson, P-B-K, LaMoure, Barnes County North, Mott-Regent, Mandaree, Divide County and North Border. By my count 27 of the 79 schools that would likely be Class B in classB4ever's plan have made at least one state tournament appearance in the last 13 years. Some have made several. A few have also won it all. This does not seem like a broken system where it's impossible for the small schools to have a chance. I think most of the three class talk is driven by anger over Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, Shiloh Christian and Fargo Oak Grove currently being successful. As I said earlier, there have been times in the past where private schools dominated as well. That doesn't mean we need to trash the whole system because a few private schools are currently having success.


Good post and you bring up some valid points. Let's say that you are looking at the glass half full. I will take the half empty approach.
First, let's be honest, the private/parochial school success has been the driving point of these discussions. In the past 22 years, there have been 176 teams at state. Of those 176 teams, private schools have been there 41 times. That is a 23.3% showing from 6 teams. If we use this years numbers, 108 total teams, privates make up 5.5% of the teams. However, you must also take into account, they are only in 6 regions, which bumps the success rate up to 31.1%.
Second, from 1999 - 2014, region 3 did not have a big school (170+) in it. Which guaranteed that a small school would be attending. This skewed the numbers also. Following are the numbers that paint a realistic picture of regional participation at state:

Using an average over 22 year period
Region 1 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 3 18.75%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 12 75.00%

Region 1 Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 9 40.91%
Private = 7 31.82%
Small = 6 27.27%

Region 2 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region 2 Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 13 59.09%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 9 40.91%


Region 3 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 1 6.25%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 15 93.75%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 3 13.64%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 19 86.36%

Note: From 1999 - 2014 there were no bigs.


Region 4 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 7 31.82%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 15 68.18%


Region 5 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 1 6.25%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 1 4.55%
Private = 11 55.00%
Small = 10 50.00%


Region 6 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 2 12.50%
Small = 12 75.00%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 4 18.18%
Private = 9 40.91%
Small = 9 40.91%


Region 7 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 13 81.25%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 6 27.27%
Private = 12 54.55%
Small = 4 18.18%


Region 8 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 13 81.25%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 5 22.73%
Private = 2 9.09%
Small = 15 68.18%
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Re: 3 class system

Postby theman » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:36 am

What a wonderful post, and with actual data. I think it becomes quite clear that private schools are disproportionally represented at the state tournament.

Later Addition to the post: What was your definition of "big" vs. "small" school?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:47 pm

After reading a number of posts in various threads, it seems that district tournaments are quite popular. The setup discussed in the above thread, 3 class (AA, A & B) would certainly generate a good district tournament atmosphere on the B side. If money is a reason to keep them, think about having 9-10 teams back in these district tourneys. Also, look at the A region tourneys and the type of hype (money) they would generate. Would assume those regionals would be double elim. Not so sure there wouldn't be some tv deals for those A region tourneys. As for the combined A & B state tourney, have to believe it would be a big hit.

Also, have read some ideas on some schools opting up, VC, Wahp and Watford City moved down, etc. Since it's been slow and to get a discussion going (even knowing it will probably never happen) below list incorporates some of those ideas.

East Region (3:1)
West Fargo High School 1458
West Fargo Sheyenne High School 1285
Fargo Davies High School 1261
Grand Forks Red River 1071
Fargo South High School 1034
Grand Forks Central 1020
Fargo North High School 898
Devils Lake Firebirds 476
Shanley High School 0

West Region (3.6:1)
Minot High School 1900
Bismarck Century High School 1252
Bismarck Legacy High School 1189
Williston High School 1166
Bismarck High School 1145
Mandan High School 1033
Dickinson 945
Jamestown High School 665
Turtle Mountain Comm HS 529
Bismarck St. Mary's 0

Region 1A (2.8:1)
Valley City High School 339
Wahpeton High School 333
Central Cass High School 227
Kindred High School 200
Lisbon High School 178
Northern Cass High School 162
Milnor/North Sargent 140
Oak Grove High School 123

Region 2A (2:1)
Grafton Spoilers 268
Four Winds/Minnewaukan 231
Hillsboro/Central Valley 213
Langdon Area/Edmore/Munich 176
May-Port CG HS 153
Carrington High School 148
Park River/Fordville-Lankin 143
Thompson High School 132

Region 3A (3.6:1)
Watford City 387
Bottineau High School 195
Stanley High School 192
Dunseith High School 190
Harvey/Wells County 181
Des Lacs-Burlington HS 175
Rugby High School 166
Bishop Ryan High School 109

Region 4A (1.9:1)
New Town High School 261
Beulah High School 201
Standing Rock Community High School 200
Hazen High School 174
Heart River 174
Dickinson Trinity High School 150
Killdeer High School 142
Shiloh Christian High School 140

Region 1 B (2.6:1)
Oakes High School 138
Edgeley/Kulm/Montpelier 133
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood 131
LaMoure-Litchville/Marion 119
Linton/HMB Lions 117
Kidder County High School 115
Napoleon/G-S Imperials 101
Ellendale High School 95
South Border Mustangs 91
Barnes County North High School 84
Medina-Pingree/Buchanan 83
Enderlin High School 82
Richland High School 79
Hankinson High School 76
Finley-Sharon/Hope Page 74
Maple Valley High School 61
Sargent Central High School 59
Strasburg/Zeeland 54
Tri-State: Fairmount-Campbell-Tintah-Rosholt 0

Region 2B (2.6:1)
Cavalier High School 129
Hatton/Northwood 125
Midway/Minto 122
St. John High School 121
Drayton/Valley-Edinburg 113
North Border 110
Larimore High School 109
TGU Titans 88
New Rockford-Sheyenne High School 88
Dakota Prairie High School 78
North Star 75
Benson County 74
Rolla High School 65
Griggs County Central High School 62
Warwick High School 60
Westhope/Newburg 60
Rolette/Wolford Comets 58
Drake/Anamoose Raiders 58
Lakota High School 57
Midkota 49

Region 3B (2.7:1)
Bowman County High School 130
Garrison High School 119
Beach High School 115
Hettinger/Scranton 114
Wilton-Wing 97
Washburn High School 89
New Salem-Almont High School 88
Richardton-Taylor High School 82
Glen Ullin/Hebron 77
Turtle Lake-Mercer/McClusky 72
New England High School 70
Flasher 66
Mott-Regent HS 59
Grant County HS 58
Solen High School 55
Max High School 53
Underwood High School 51
Center-Stanton HS 48

Region 4B (4.5:1)
Velva High School 145
Nedrose High School 136
Tioga High School 120
South Prairie High School 111
Divide County High School 102
Mohall-Lansford-Sherwood High School 100
Surrey High School 94
Trenton High School 89
Glenburn High School 86
Ray High School 82
Kenmare High School 77
Lewis & Clark High School - Berthold 67
Parshall High School 64
Bowbells/Burke Central 62
Our Redeemer's HS 59
Mandaree High School 56
Alexander High School 53
White Shield High School 50
Powers Lake High School 49
Lewis & Clark, North Shore 36
Williston Trinity Christian High School 32
Last edited by classB4ever on Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:49 pm

theman wrote:
Later Addition to the post: What was your definition of "big" vs. "small" school?


For that information listed, big was 170+, small < 170.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:48 pm

What is the mean point for all class b schools? I haven't calculated it yet but I would guess its around 125 to 130 enrollment for all class b schools. In my estimation then any school above the mean would be large school not the figure of 170 enrollment. Also were doing this based on total enrollment but in football its done by actual numbers for each school by gender. Then one other factor I would like to be accounted for would be number of small schools how many of them have been successful single schools with no cooping with another small school. The regions 2 and 4 I am familiar with we had schools like Northstar, Cavalier, and Leeds who are considered small schools but were not coop schools but single school that have had success. My feeling these schools because of this have advantages in numerous ways to keeping successful program but is not entirely the reasons for winning program. I wonder if I am only one that looks at this from schools that are on bottom 1/3 of this from size stand point that they are never ever considered for competitive balance stand point. Everyone expects them to be there every year but know one cares that they have no chance to compete but they are needed to keep the system together if were going to have competitive sports. I don't expect them to be playing for championships regularly but I do believe they need to have reasonable chance of playing some meaning full games at least couple of times in 10 year period. You need this to keep interest and participation up from students as well as communities they come from or soon we will have the sport die. I can point to this feeling now one of the larger class b schools if go back to when Grafton was at class A level but one of the smallest schools there were quotes how the program was dying because they couldn't compete. Then after they returned to class b and had success how the program was flourishing again. This is what I feel is happening to the bottom of Class b and has been happening for at least 10 years. I just get the feeling people don't get feeling of this or choose not to even think about this. My final thought try to put yourself in place of this bottom third and what would you do and do not have the option of moving or changing your position.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby tmd33643 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:29 pm

Did anyone see the scores for the district 15 tournament yesterday for the girls?

New Town, Watford City, and Parshall beat Williston Trinity, Lewis & Clark-North Shore-Plaza, and White Shield all lost big. Like 60 something to 10 something.

That seems like a good enough reason to go to 3 classes.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:36 pm

B-oldtimer wrote:What is the mean point for all class b schools? I haven't calculated it yet but I would guess its around 125 to 130 enrollment for all class b schools. In my estimation then any school above the mean would be large school not the figure of 170 enrollment.


I started keeping data around 22 years ago. Had to have a starting point back then. The information put together was based on bigger schools over the 170+ mark. Which was a natural break back then. A lot has changed in those 22 years. If I would have dropped the "big" number (170+) over the years, it would have only painted a more bleak picture. Meaning entirely more big wins vs. small schools. A more realistic approach is to look at the ratio of the smallest school to the biggest school in each division. If you can keep that ratio in the 2.5:1 range, everyone in that division should have a chance, IMHO.

The list above is not about enrollment but rather a fixed number of schools in a hybrid 2 class system. Classes are based on 19-32-the rest. Breaks are made where teams are not going to be bouncing back and forth every 3 years. If you look closely, you certainly can see the top enrollments for the "b" schools are generally around 135 not 170.

To answer your question: Average w/ Watford City = 112.5 w/o WC = 108.9
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:45 pm

tmd33643 wrote:Did anyone see the scores for the district 15 tournament yesterday for the girls?

New Town, Watford City, and Parshall beat Williston Trinity, Lewis & Clark-North Shore-Plaza, and White Shield all lost big. Like 60 something to 10 something.

That seems like a good enough reason to go to 3 classes.


‘Little’ Trenton was curiously omitted. They’ve won twice, including a semifinal win over New Town, and will play Watford City for the District 15 title. Watford City is set to grow out of the ‘B’ ranks. District 15 actually doesn’t help your case. And the bottom feeders in North Dakota class B would remain in the cellar of class C.

The guy taking the 22 year sample size has the better approach here.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:25 pm

classB4ever wrote:
B Historian wrote:
My point was (is) that even though it was much harder in the past to make a state tournament, there were still programs just as dominant as there are today. It wasn't like a different team from each region was making it every year. For obvious reasons it will always be tougher for smaller schools to make it. That's simply the nature of sports. That also doesn't mean the current system is necessarily broken.

Over the last 13 years we have had 13 different state champions. During that time the following smaller schools have all made at least one appearance at state: Turtle Lake-Mercer, Strasburg-Zeeland, North Star, Flasher, New England, North Sargent, Milnor, Berthold, Mandaree, Kidder County, Richland, Trenton, Dakota Prairie, Hankinson, P-B-K, LaMoure, Barnes County North, Mott-Regent, Mandaree, Divide County and North Border. By my count 27 of the 79 schools that would likely be Class B in classB4ever's plan have made at least one state tournament appearance in the last 13 years. Some have made several. A few have also won it all. This does not seem like a broken system where it's impossible for the small schools to have a chance. I think most of the three class talk is driven by anger over Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, Shiloh Christian and Fargo Oak Grove currently being successful. As I said earlier, there have been times in the past where private schools dominated as well. That doesn't mean we need to trash the whole system because a few private schools are currently having success.


Good post and you bring up some valid points. Let's say that you are looking at the glass half full. I will take the half empty approach.
First, let's be honest, the private/parochial school success has been the driving point of these discussions. In the past 22 years, there have been 176 teams at state. Of those 176 teams, private schools have been there 41 times. That is a 23.3% showing from 6 teams. If we use this years numbers, 108 total teams, privates make up 5.5% of the teams. However, you must also take into account, they are only in 6 regions, which bumps the success rate up to 31.1%.
Second, from 1999 - 2014, region 3 did not have a big school (170+) in it. Which guaranteed that a small school would be attending. This skewed the numbers also. Following are the numbers that paint a realistic picture of regional participation at state:

Using an average over 22 year period
Region 1 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 3 18.75%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 12 75.00%

Region 1 Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 9 40.91%
Private = 7 31.82%
Small = 6 27.27%

Region 2 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region 2 Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 13 59.09%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 9 40.91%


Region 3 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 1 6.25%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 15 93.75%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 3 13.64%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 19 86.36%

Note: From 1999 - 2014 there were no bigs.


Region 4 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 7 31.82%
Private = 0 0.00%
Small = 15 68.18%


Region 5 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 1 6.25%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 14 87.50%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 1 4.55%
Private = 11 55.00%
Small = 10 50.00%


Region 6 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 2 12.50%
Small = 12 75.00%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 4 18.18%
Private = 9 40.91%
Small = 9 40.91%


Region 7 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 13 81.25%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 6 27.27%
Private = 12 54.55%
Small = 4 18.18%


Region 8 Schools = 16

Big Schools = 2 12.50%
Private = 1 6.25%
Small = 13 81.25%

Region Champs Over 22 Years
Big Schools = 5 22.73%
Private = 2 9.09%
Small = 15 68.18%


I get what you are saying. However, I will counter what you are saying with a few other facts:

- Over the last 22 years the following five public schools- MPCG, Four Winds, Linton, Beulah and North Star- have combined for 34 state appearances, with 16 championship game appearances and 8 state titles. There are three other schools with four appearances each that have been in the championship game twice each (Rugby, Berthold and Grafton). It's not as if the public schools are suffering at the hands of private schools in the state tournament: the six private schools have a combined 64-59 record in the state tournament over the last 22 years.

- Shiloh Christian has been to state 11 times, but has just a 12-21 overall state tournament record. Lots of "empty" trips to state because of playing in a terrible region with little competition.

- Minot Ryan has made 8 trips to state but also has a losing record (11-13) with no state titles and just one title game appearance in your 22 year time frame. Ryan plays in a much better region than Shiloh and has consistently had solid teams which is one of the advantages of a private school. But by no definition has Ryan dominated. 9 different schools have made the state tournament from this region in the last 22 years which is a good number.

- Oak Grove has 7 appearances and won it all with very good teams in 2000 and 2014. However, I would argue that like Shiloh, Oak Grove has the advantage of playing in a weak region. 10 different teams have made it to state out of this region in the last 22 years, but the Region 1 entrants besides Oak Grove have combined for a 15-30 state tournament including a four year stretch of 8th place finishes. The fact that the big schools (Kindred, Central Cass and Lisbon) under perform in basketball has really hurt the overall quality of the region over the years.

- Dickinson Trinity has 12 state appearances and five trips to the state title game. Trinity is in the middle of the pack from an enrollment standpoint in Region 7 and is in a much smaller town than the other private schools which means less athletes to draw from. I really feel the reason Trinity has done so well is Grinsteinner, who is a tremendous coach in my opinion.

- Trinity Christian has been in two state tournaments and went 1-5. Our Redeemer's has only made it the one time. Plus, both of these schools would almost certainly be in the smallest class in a three-class system.

- As I pointed out earlier, outside of the 70's and 80's private schools have a history of doing well in Class B. This isn't a new phenomenon.

- The hands down most successful region in Class B basketball over the last 45 years is Region 2. Schools from this region have won 15 state titles over those 45 years and 7 in the last 22 years. If any small schools should have a reasonable complaint about needing a third class, it would be those that are forced to play in this region. But I guess that wouldn't fit the narrative of those that are jealous of the parochial schools?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:14 pm

B Historian wrote:
I get what you are saying. However, I will counter what you are saying with a few other facts:

- Over the last 22 years the following five public schools- MPCG, Four Winds, Linton, Beulah and North Star- have combined for 34 state appearances, with 16 championship game appearances and 8 state titles. There are three other schools with four appearances each that have been in the championship game twice each (Rugby, Berthold and Grafton). It's not as if the public schools are suffering at the hands of private schools in the state tournament: the six private schools have a combined 64-59 record in the state tournament over the last 22 years.


MPCG - was a big school during their run, had once in a generation talent and were well coached.
Four Wind - biggest school in that region and good coaching.
Linton - small school, great runs of athletes, good coaching.
Beulah - biggest school in region and good coaching.
North Star - once in a generation talent during run and good coaching.

No surprises in any of this. Good athletes + Good coaching = Success.

B Historian wrote:
- The hands down most successful region in Class B basketball over the last 45 years is Region 2. Schools from this region have won 15 state titles over those 45 years and 7 in the last 22 years. If any small schools should have a reasonable complaint about needing a third class, it would be those that are forced to play in this region.


Not sure about the last 45 years, but the last 22 years, 11 years and 6 years are below:
Average finish last 22 years:
Region 4 3.27
Region 2 3.36
Region 7 4.00
Region 6 4.14
Region 1 5.00
Region 3 5.14
Region 5 5.55
Region 8 5.68

Average finish last 11 years:
Region 4 2.82
Region 2 3.91
Region 6 4.45
Region 1 4.45
Region 3 4.73
Region 7 4.82
Region 8 5.27
Region 5 5.55

Average finish last 6 years:
Region 4 2.00
Region 1 3.33
Region 6 3.50
Region 7 4.67
Region 3 4.83
Region 2 5.33
Region 5 5.50
Region 8 6.67

Region 4 has been the strongest.

B Historian wrote:
- Shiloh Christian has been to state 11 times, but has just a 12-21 overall state tournament record. Lots of "empty" trips to state because of playing in a terrible region with little competition.

- Minot Ryan has made 8 trips to state but also has a losing record (11-13) with no state titles and just one title game appearance in your 22 year time frame. Ryan plays in a much better region than Shiloh and has consistently had solid teams which is one of the advantages of a private school. But by no definition has Ryan dominated. 9 different schools have made the state tournament from this region in the last 22 years which is a good number.

- Oak Grove has 7 appearances and won it all with very good teams in 2000 and 2014. However, I would argue that like Shiloh, Oak Grove has the advantage of playing in a weak region. 10 different teams have made it to state out of this region in the last 22 years, but the Region 1 entrants besides Oak Grove have combined for a 15-30 state tournament including a four year stretch of 8th place finishes. The fact that the big schools (Kindred, Central Cass and Lisbon) under perform in basketball has really hurt the overall quality of the region over the years.

- Dickinson Trinity has 12 state appearances and five trips to the state title game. Trinity is in the middle of the pack from an enrollment standpoint in Region 7 and is in a much smaller town than the other private schools which means less athletes to draw from. I really feel the reason Trinity has done so well is Grinsteinner, who is a tremendous coach in my opinion.

- Trinity Christian has been in two state tournaments and went 1-5. Our Redeemer's has only made it the one time. Plus, both of these schools would almost certainly be in the smallest class in a three-class system.

But I guess that wouldn't fit the narrative of those that are jealous of the parochial schools?


So let me get this straight, you gave examples of how poorly parochial schools have done over this time frame at state and feel people are jealous of their success? Not quite sure of that logic.

Personally, I don't get emotional about these things and is the reason for listing the data and ideas for discussion. Love ND basketball and think there are some problems and believe through discussion there can be some changes to get participation levels up.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:36 pm

Anyone want to run the girls data because all arguments given have just talked BBB?!?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:09 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:Anyone want to run the girls data because all arguments given have just talked BBB?!?

Hope someone does. Haven't kept those numbers. Would be very interesting to see last 5 years in GBB and volleyball. Also going forward should be interesting as well.
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