3 class system

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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:40 pm

A few things could be done, but it will take all AD's to get on board and use some common sense. The district tournaments for instance need to be done away with. This is not going to be popular because it is a major money maker in some districts. But in reality, they are having 3 nights of basketball to reduce the field from 6 to 4 in many districts. I repeat, 3 nights of basketball to get from 6 teams to 4 teams. These teams are playing one another 3 to 4 times during the season as it is. It is ludicrous. The system mentioned in above thread isn't a bad idea. Can you imagine having 4 regional tournaments like that? These Regionals would be miniature state tournaments against like opponents. They would truly be Super Regionals. To make up for the money lost at the district level, 2 more games would be gained in regular season. If some of these higher ups would use a little round table thinking, the beginning round of these Super Regionals could even be played at the home court of the higher seed, also helping to offset the loss in income from the district tourneys. It's mind blowing that they cannot come up with a better system to what we've had for 50 years considering the change in ND's landscape and population base.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:21 am

The problem is not the districts or the Regionals its make up the class. If you look at class b basketball there are quarter of the teams in each region that have not even played in final four of region in twenty years and if you probably look at closely over half the teams have not even been to final in the region. Then look at larger schools they have nearly played 75% of time in final four of region and I would bet they have been in final in last 5 years. Now tell me how there's competitive balance in system like this. I will take region 4 which I am familiar with and give you little history on it last 20 years Four winds has won the region 6 times and now one schools it coops with won region once so you could say that's 7 times, Northstar/Cando has won the region 6 times in this period, 3 times for New Rockford, 2 times for Leeds, 1 time for Carrington, 1 time for Wells county now part of Harvey completing the last 20 years. The last 10 years have been dominated by Four winds and Northstar. Last years finalist ST. John has never gone to state but this year looks like there best chance but that is still to be determined. Now look at some of the other schools like Lakota hasn't been to regionals at least in 10 years, Warwick was there couple years ago with Langstaff only time they were competitive, Rolla similar had one year, Rolette,Leeds has struggled to be factor in last 10 years and so have New Rockford and Langdon now with Edmore and Munich. I look at other regions I see similar things with same few schools playing in region championships. I just look at this history and you can see we have very uneven competitive balance when same schools are playing for region championships year in year out and you have schools that have hard time even getting into region or even winning one game in the region. Yet some of these same schools have made the football playoffs and have advanced in the playoffs in past few years. This is proof that the activities association has done very little to look at competitive balance in basketball but they sure have done so in football. So what gives here and they have no problem sending schools traveling all over the state to have competitive balance in football but are afraid of trying something different in basketball.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:19 am

The problem with the examples you gave is that North Star would be in the bottom class and still would have dominated the region in the past 10 years if we had a three class system. And FWM would have still dominated the middle class.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:14 am

In regions 1, 5, 6 and 7: how many title games in the past 10 years in these regions haven't included a school without defined district lines (if you'd like to be fair we can include region 8 in that, since they have a school, although that school hasn't been competitive). There are 5 regions in the state that have schools without defined district lines, in the past 15 years how many appearances have their been in the state tournament from those mentioned schools? How many appearances have been made by schools who have played AA football in the past 15 years? How many appearances by schools who play 9 man football or are one of the smaller class A football schools?

I know my responses to this will be "get in the gym", "get better", "stop hating on success", "life is tough"...so save yourselves the breath. I get it, I truly get it. Not everything in life is fair. The fact of the matter is our system is so broken and either no one realizes it or no one give a darn.

Here's some information, the board members of the NDHSAA are supposed to represent the feelings of their member schools. A few years ago the 3 class system passed the district chairs meeting at the state tournament by a vote of 14-2 (the only two votes against it were due to the time frame for implementation, not the 3 class system itself). The NDHSAA the said "your plan doesn't include volleyball so we aren't even going to discuss it". Are you kidding me? Until we get some fresh faces on that committee we will be stuck behind the 8-ball. And I know this is 20 years too late, but does that mean we can't fix it now? Absolutely not.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:16 pm

The Schwab wrote:In regions 1, 5, 6 and 7: how many title games in the past 10 years in these regions haven't included a school without defined district lines (if you'd like to be fair we can include region 8 in that, since they have a school, although that school hasn't been competitive). There are 5 regions in the state that have schools without defined district lines, in the past 15 years how many appearances have their been in the state tournament from those mentioned schools? .


Not sure of regional title games, but can give you last 22 years of state participants.
Using 170+ enrollment to be considered big, following is the break down for past 22 years for state participation:
47 - Big
41 - Parochial/Private
88 - Small
Exactly 50% ratio of Big/Private:Small
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:28 pm

classB4ever wrote:
The Schwab wrote:In regions 1, 5, 6 and 7: how many title games in the past 10 years in these regions haven't included a school without defined district lines (if you'd like to be fair we can include region 8 in that, since they have a school, although that school hasn't been competitive). There are 5 regions in the state that have schools without defined district lines, in the past 15 years how many appearances have their been in the state tournament from those mentioned schools? .


Not sure of regional title games, but can give you last 22 years of state participants.
Using 170+ enrollment to be considered big, following is the break down for past 22 years for state participation:
47 - Big
41 - Parochial/Private
88 - Small
Exactly 50% ratio of Big/Private:Small


That's why I think the 3 class system should not go by enrollment. We can come up with different cutoff numbers to justify each argument. I feel it just needs to be kept simple like football.... top 20 teams in AA, next 40 or so in A, and the rest in B. That way you don't get teams moving back and forth between classes as much. Then you also don't get teams dropping a school in a co-op to get under a magical number or trying to decide if adding a school will keep them under the cutoff.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:46 pm

I would also like to see an enrollment chart of all teams in the state. Easy to find for FB of course, but it seems like for basketball it is all over the place and never consistent.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:49 pm

classB4ever wrote:
The Schwab wrote:In regions 1, 5, 6 and 7: how many title games in the past 10 years in these regions haven't included a school without defined district lines (if you'd like to be fair we can include region 8 in that, since they have a school, although that school hasn't been competitive). There are 5 regions in the state that have schools without defined district lines, in the past 15 years how many appearances have their been in the state tournament from those mentioned schools? .


Not sure of regional title games, but can give you last 22 years of state participants.
Using 170+ enrollment to be considered big, following is the break down for past 22 years for state participation:
47 - Big
41 - Parochial/Private
88 - Small
Exactly 50% ratio of Big/Private:Small


How many schools total schools would you classify as big and/or Private?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:52 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:I would also like to see an enrollment chart of all teams in the state. Easy to find for FB of course, but it seems like for basketball it is all over the place and never consistent.

https://www.nd.gov/dpi/uploads/1213/201 ... School.pdf
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:02 pm

The Schwab wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
The Schwab wrote:In regions 1, 5, 6 and 7: how many title games in the past 10 years in these regions haven't included a school without defined district lines (if you'd like to be fair we can include region 8 in that, since they have a school, although that school hasn't been competitive). There are 5 regions in the state that have schools without defined district lines, in the past 15 years how many appearances have their been in the state tournament from those mentioned schools? .


Not sure of regional title games, but can give you last 22 years of state participants.
Using 170+ enrollment to be considered big, following is the break down for past 22 years for state participation:
47 - Big
41 - Parochial/Private
88 - Small
Exactly 50% ratio of Big/Private:Small




How many schools total schools would you classify as big and/or Private?


Haven't upgraded enrollment for this year. I can give you an average for past 21 years using 174+:
Big - 15
Private/Parochial - 6
Small - 107

Concerning your earlier question. From 2001 - 2017:
Region 1 - Oak Grove - 6 state tourneys.
Region 5 - Shiloh - 9 state tourneys.
Region 6 - Ryan/Our Redeemers - 7 state tourneys.
Region 7 - Dickinson Trinity - 11 state tourneys.
Region 8 - Williston Trinity - 2 state tourneys.
Last edited by classB4ever on Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:10 pm

Break Down of Enrollment numbers in teams in the poll or RV for boys basketball:
1. Stanley- 192
2. St. John-121
3. Hillsboro-Central Valley-213
4. Oak Grove-Private
5. Grafton-255
6. Thompson-131
7. Bishop Ryan- Private
8. Maple Valley- 61
9. New Town- 261
10. Shiloh Christian- Private
Four Winds-Minnewaukan- 231
Solen- 55
Bottineau- 195
Dunseith- 190
Richland- 79
Carrington- 148
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:12 pm

classB4ever wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
The Schwab wrote:In regions 1, 5, 6 and 7: how many title games in the past 10 years in these regions haven't included a school without defined district lines (if you'd like to be fair we can include region 8 in that, since they have a school, although that school hasn't been competitive). There are 5 regions in the state that have schools without defined district lines, in the past 15 years how many appearances have their been in the state tournament from those mentioned schools? .


Not sure of regional title games, but can give you last 22 years of state participants.
Using 170+ enrollment to be considered big, following is the break down for past 22 years for state participation:
47 - Big
41 - Parochial/Private
88 - Small
Exactly 50% ratio of Big/Private:Small




How many schools total schools would you classify as big and/or Private?


Haven't upgraded enrollment for this year. I can give you an average for past 21 years using 174+:
Big - 15
Private/Parochial - 6
Small - 107

Concerning your earlier question. From 2001 - 2017:
Region 1 - Oak Grove - 6 state tourneys.
Region 5 - Shiloh - 9 state tourneys.
Region 6 - Ryan/Our Redeemers - 7 state tourneys.
Region 7 - Dickinson Trinity - 11 state tourneys.
Region 8 - Williston Trinity - 2 state tourneys.


So...21 schools have 50% of berths in a state tournament and 107 schools have 50% of berths in a state tournament....holy cow
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:18 pm

The Schwab wrote:
So...21 schools have 50% of berths in a state tournament and 107 schools have 50% of berths in a state tournament....holy cow


Admittedly, some of the big schools have changed over the years, but for the most part it's pretty straight forward.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby triplebbb » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:26 pm

Watford City boys have played the BOTTOM 4 teams in the WDA. Dickinson twice. And play Williston again tomorrow.
Scores. All losses
Dix 69-51 and 82-60
St. Mary's 91-58
Williston 90-52
Turtle Mountain 84-55

Girls have played Dickinson twice and Turtle Mountain. 2 losses vs Dix and beat TM
Dix 55-42 and 76-47
Turtle Mountain won 72-54

It's going to be extremely hard to be competitive in the WDA for WC. It will take the class A teams to initiate the 3-class system.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:35 pm

triplebbb wrote:
It's going to be extremely hard to be competitive in the WDA for WC. It will take the class A teams to initiate the 3-class system.


It will take the big B's to get it done. That's why it hasn't happened.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:59 pm

The Schwab wrote:Break Down of Enrollment numbers in teams in the poll or RV for boys basketball:
1. Stanley- 192
2. St. John-121
3. Hillsboro-Central Valley-213
4. Oak Grove-Private
5. Grafton-255
6. Thompson-131
7. Bishop Ryan- Private
8. Maple Valley- 61
9. New Town- 261
10. Shiloh Christian- Private
Four Winds-Minnewaukan- 231
Solen- 55
Bottineau- 195
Dunseith- 190
Richland- 79
Carrington- 148


Enrollments for the private schools I found...

Oak Grove 123
Bishop Ryan 109
Shiloh 140
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:03 pm

I also think for a true three class system if going by enrollments, 175 is way too high of a cutoff. We still have many teams that have enrollments well below 50 and going up against 150 is quite a difference. And I'm not just talking about 3x difference, I'm talking about competitive balance with participation. If a school with enrollment of 150 has separate 7/8 teams plus 3 HS squads compared to a school of 40 with a combined JH team then some of them playing JV to fill out a team it makes a big deal. Honestly with enrollments, I would consider 125-400 in the middle class.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:05 pm

top 16 enrollements
next 32-40
the rest
allow teams to opt up
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:16 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
The Schwab wrote:Break Down of Enrollment numbers in teams in the poll or RV for boys basketball:
1. Stanley- 192
2. St. John-121
3. Hillsboro-Central Valley-213
4. Oak Grove-Private
5. Grafton-255
6. Thompson-131
7. Bishop Ryan- Private
8. Maple Valley- 61
9. New Town- 261
10. Shiloh Christian- Private
Four Winds-Minnewaukan- 231
Solen- 55
Bottineau- 195
Dunseith- 190
Richland- 79
Carrington- 148


Enrollments for the private schools I found...

Oak Grove 123
Bishop Ryan 109
Shiloh 140


109, 123 and 140 kids at a private school is a completely different make up then 109, 123 and 140 kids at a public school....

There are advantages, which is why I would want to look at a kind of "reverse" multiplier of the football plan
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:19 pm

The Schwab wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
The Schwab wrote:Break Down of Enrollment numbers in teams in the poll or RV for boys basketball:
1. Stanley- 192
2. St. John-121
3. Hillsboro-Central Valley-213
4. Oak Grove-Private
5. Grafton-255
6. Thompson-131
7. Bishop Ryan- Private
8. Maple Valley- 61
9. New Town- 261
10. Shiloh Christian- Private
Four Winds-Minnewaukan- 231
Solen- 55
Bottineau- 195
Dunseith- 190
Richland- 79
Carrington- 148


Enrollments for the private schools I found...

Oak Grove 123
Bishop Ryan 109
Shiloh 140


109, 123 and 140 kids at a private school is a completely different make up then 109, 123 and 140 kids at a public school....

There are advantages, which is why I would want to look at a kind of "reverse" multiplier of the football plan


I agree, but you know those schools would fight that in court. Again, that's why it just needs to be a certain number of schools in each division and not based on enrollment.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:23 pm

allow teams to opt up and SC, OG, DT, and BR will all opt up.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:26 pm

I broke down the teams in Class B with what a 3-class system would look like if based on the following enrollments.

125 cutoff - 74 teams in bottom class and 31 teams in middle class (not including where you set it at the upper limit) - could easily add Watford City, Valley City, Whapeton. Bishop Ryan and Williston Trinity would remain in bottom class

150 cutoff - 83 teams in bottom class and 22 teams in middle with the same as above. Only Dickinson Trinity would be in middle class and they are right at 150.

175 cutoff - 94 teams in bottom class and 11 teams in middle
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:03 am

Flip wrote:allow teams to opt up and SC, OG, DT, and BR will all opt up.


SC didn't opt up in football...
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:57 am

Updating enrollment figures for 2017-2018. Need help with the following: First list are high schools which I would like to know if they are part of high school sport's team, if you know, please list. Second is a list of high schools I don't have enrollments for, if you know accurate enrollment, please list. Thanks.

Ashley Public School 38
Belfield Public School 76
Brave Center Academy 36
Community Alternative High School 78
Del Easton Alternative High School 18
Eight Mile Public School 89
Elgin-New Leipzig Public School 58
Fairmount Public School 24
Goodrich Public School 9
Grenora Public School 45
Mt Pleasant Public School 65
Selfridge Public School 28
Souris River Campus Alternative High School 60
South Central Alternative High School 110
South Heart Public School 98
Southwest Community High School 25
St Thomas Public School 13
Steele-Dawson Public School 115
Wishek Public School 53
Woodrow Wilson Alternative High School 150


Bishop Ryan High School
Bismarck St. Mary's
Dickinson Trinity High School
Grant County HS
Heart River
Kidder County High School
Oak Grove High School
Our Redeemer's HS
Rolla High School
Shanley High School
Shiloh Christian High School
South Border Mustangs
Standing Rock Community High School
Trenton High School
Tri-State: Fairmount-Campbell-Tintah-Rosholt
Williston Trinity Christian High School
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:02 pm

classB4ever wrote:Updating enrollment figures for 2017-2018. Need help with the following: First list are high schools which I would like to know if they are part of high school sport's team, if you know, please list. Second is a list of high schools I don't have enrollments for, if you know accurate enrollment, please list. Thanks.

Ashley Public School 38
Belfield Public School 76
Brave Center Academy 36
Community Alternative High School 78
Del Easton Alternative High School 18
Eight Mile Public School 89
Elgin-New Leipzig Public School 58
Fairmount Public School 24
Goodrich Public School 9
Grenora Public School 45
Mt Pleasant Public School 65
Selfridge Public School 28
Souris River Campus Alternative High School 60
South Central Alternative High School 110
South Heart Public School 98
Southwest Community High School 25
St Thomas Public School 13
Steele-Dawson Public School 115
Wishek Public School 53
Woodrow Wilson Alternative High School 150


Bishop Ryan High School
Bismarck St. Mary's
Dickinson Trinity High School
Grant County HS
Heart River
Kidder County High School
Oak Grove High School
Our Redeemer's HS
Rolla High School
Shanley High School
Shiloh Christian High School
South Border Mustangs
Standing Rock Community High School
Trenton High School
Tri-State: Fairmount-Campbell-Tintah-Rosholt
Williston Trinity Christian High School


Ashley and Wishek are South Border
Mt. Pleasant is Rolla
Belfield and South Heart are Heart River
Steele Dawson is Kidder County
I believe Eight Mile is Trenton but not sure
Elgin is Grant County

I found the following for private schools
Bishop Ryan 109
Dickinson Trinity 150
Oak Grove 123
Shiloh 140
Williston Trinity 32
Our Redeemers 59
I don't have exact numbers for St Mary and Shanley but both were right around 330

Standing Rock + Selfridge enrollment is 200
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