3 class system

[heimer]

I'm working on this, and will have details in another week or two. I'm attempting to pull information so as to be accurate.

I've lobbied for additional elements to be used for classification of teams. We know that enrollment isn't enough. Private schools have high access to a large pool of potential athletes. Larger B schools have more financial resources to pay coaches, hire them away from other towns, which complicates building programs. Also, large, spread-out co-ops of small towns have participation issues, even though their overall enrollment may compare.

So, this is the proposal I'm researching:

1) 400 and above is AA

2) 100 to 400 is A if their total taxable valuations within their city limits of their host school is above $2.5 million.

3) 100 to 400 is B if the total taxable valuations within their city limits of their host school is below $2.5 million.

4) Below 100 is B.

So far:

Every private school is A
Grafton, Hillsboro, Thompson, Central Cass, and Beulah are A by vaulation.
Kindred is B by valuation
Valley City, Wahpeton, and Watford City are A by enrollment

There are a number of communities that I have yet to reach out to for valuation numbers.

I think it makes sense. Larger tax bases will lead to better opportunities for athletes, just like they do for students. If we ignore the financial advantages, we are ignoring a big factor.

[Flip]

4 classes of what...25-30 teams?? Feels watered down IMO...it’s either 2 classes or 3 classes (just has to be the right system).

Watching Century girls beat Richland by 70 in the first round of the final four doesn't get you excited?

[heimer]

I'm going to assume there is not a state in the union doing it this way. Do you think North Dakota is willing to be the first? I don't.

Other states have separate leagues for privates. Don't see us doing that.

North Dakota has unique issues that other states do not compare to.

This is also a typically Class B, curmudgeony, resistant-to-change, 1958 view.

Not surprised

[The Schwab]

I like your idea with the taxable valuations, but I think the number may need a little tweaking IMO. I'll use Hettinger and Kindred as an example. Hettinger is the lead school in their co-op. They have a taxable valuation of 2,941,945 (number from January 2018). They have 261 total kids k-12 in their school since they co-op with Scranton, if we add Scranton's enrollment (128 k-12) they have 389 kids k-12 in the co-op. Kindred has a taxable valuation of 2,413,101 (number from January 2018). They have 763 total kids k-12 in their school.

I really like the idea of taxable valuations playing into it, but IMO if we're going to have one of those schools be in the middle class I don't think anyone would disagree with me that Kindred would have more success than Hettinger-Scranton.

[heimer]

In their immediate city limits or in the district?

I'm talking within the immediate city limits. Not farmland.

[The Schwab]

Using your number of 2.5 million, these public schools would make up the middle class based on Taxable Valuation only. All of these numbers come from http://www.ndlc.org/ArchiveCenter/ViewFile/Item/91 which I read to be city limits only.

Central Cass
Langdon
Oakes
Hettinger-Scranton
Bowman
Divide County
Killdeer
Carrington
Bottineau
Beach
Hatton-Northwood
Thompson
Velva
Garrison
Washburn
Beulah
Hazen
New Town
Cavalier
Rugby
Enderlin
Lisbon
Milnor-North Sargent (I used gwinner's number)
Heart River (I used belfield's number)
Richardton-Taylor
HCV
MPCG
Grafton
Park River
Berthold
DLB (Used burlingtons number)
Kenmare
Harvey
Ray
Tioga

*I edit this list as I find mistakes

[The Schwab]

In their immediate city limits or in the district?

I'm talking within the immediate city limits. Not farmland.

I'm pretty sure this is just city limit data, I'm sure farmland in Kindred is taxed a heck of a lot more than farmland in Hettinger (if it's not it should be haha!)

[The Schwab]

I'm working on this, and will have details in another week or two. I'm attempting to pull information so as to be accurate.

I've lobbied for additional elements to be used for classification of teams. We know that enrollment isn't enough. Private schools have high access to a large pool of potential athletes. Larger B schools have more financial resources to pay coaches, hire them away from other towns, which complicates building programs. Also, large, spread-out co-ops of small towns have participation issues, even though their overall enrollment may compare.

So, this is the proposal I'm researching:

1) 400 and above is AA

2) 100 to 400 is A if their total taxable valuations within their city limits of their host school is above $2.5 million.

3) 100 to 400 is B if the total taxable valuations within their city limits of their host school is below $2.5 million.

4) Below 100 is B.

So far:

Every private school is A
Grafton, Hillsboro, Thompson, Central Cass, and Beulah are A by vaulation.
Kindred is B by valuation
Valley City, Wahpeton, and Watford City are A by enrollment

There are a number of communities that I have yet to reach out to for valuation numbers.

I think it makes sense. Larger tax bases will lead to better opportunities for athletes, just like they do for students. If we ignore the financial advantages, we are ignoring a big factor.

I'm going to assume there is not a state in the union doing it this way. Do you think North Dakota is willing to be the first? I don't.

There are states that require all private schools to play up a class, I don't think ND would do it that way either. A version of this would at least give a numerical reason why to do so.

[ndlionsfan]

Using your number of 2.5 million, these public schools would make up the middle class based on Taxable Valuation only. All of these numbers come from http://www.ndlc.org/ArchiveCenter/ViewFile/Item/91 which I read to be city limits only.

Central Cass
Langdon
Oakes
Hettinger-Scranton
Divide County
Killdeer
Carrington
Beach
Hatton-Northwood
Thompson
Velva
Garrison
Washburn
Beulah
Hazen
New Town
Cavalier
Rugby
Enderlin
Lisbon
Milnor-North Sargent (I used gwinner's number)
Heart River (I used belfield's number)
Richardton-Taylor
HCV
MPCG
Grafton
Park River
Berthold
DLB (Used burlingtons number)
Kenmare
Harvey
Ray
Tioga

How much does it change if the number is moved to $3M?

Right now that is 32 teams in the middle class. I'm assuming you also add 4 private schools and 4 current class A school as well.

[The Schwab]

I keep editing my original list when I find errors and omissions:

If we make 3 Million the number we would remove:

Hettinger-Scranton
Hatton Northwood
Cavalier
Heart River
Park River
Ray

[The Schwab]

After looking at Heimer's idea and combining his with my own thoughts.

If you are under 150 in your high school you play class B unless your city has a taxable valuation of over 4 million.

If you are between 150 and 400 in your high school you play class A

If you are over 400 in your high school you play class AA

[Big Blue]

So, Schwab and Heimer, you are cool with Trinity Christian or Our Redeemer's as Class A teams?

[The Schwab]

So, Schwab and Heimer, you are cool with Trinity Christian or Our Redeemer's as Class A teams?

I'm cooler with them playing class A then I am with some current class B schools playing class B. I'd feel bad for Trinity Christian, I wouldn't feel bad for Our Redeemer's.

[Big Blue]

They aren't mid-class schools. Sorry. They belong with small schools, because they are both very small schools with limited athletic traditions. Minnesota has private schools in the smallest class, I don't see why North Dakota should force small private schools to play up.

[Flip]

They aren't mid-class schools. Sorry. They belong with small schools, because they are both very small schools with limited athletic traditions. Minnesota has private schools in the smallest class, I don't see why North Dakota should force small private schools to play up.

Because all their kids are recruited for athletics and we hate them.

[heimer]

Change 100-400 to 200-400 and I will think about it. How's that for my resistant-to-change attitude?

To save Shiloh? No thanks.

They belong in the middle division.

[The Schwab]

If I was in a school and these were our results the last 6 years in the 3 sports we sponsor by ourselves I'd say we have a pretty strong athletic traditions.

Boys Basketball- Region Runner Up, Region 3rd Place, Region 2nd Place, Region Champs, Region 3rd Place, Region 4th

Girls Basketball- Missed Regionals, Missed Regionals, Region Champs, Region 4th Place, Region Qualifier (lost by 2), Region Qualifier (lost by 2)

Volleyball- Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region 3rd place

[heimer]

Schwab, part of the issue is that I was given bad data, particularly on Hazen, when I made my initial calls.

I can also say that these numbers will change in 2019, as Casselton is now over $9 million, and they are listed as over $8 million from the league of cities.

The bad data gave me a poor picture of where the cutoff should be. I'd propose the number move to $4 million. Those schools between 100-400 with taxable values of $4 million in their host city are middle division. Then divide that division into to a top end and bottom end, and give each division 4 spots in the state tournament.

The top part of that division could involve cities with over $10 million in taxables. That would separate out Valley City, Wahpeton, Watford City, Minot Ryan, Our Redeemers, Watford City, Trinity Christian, Dickinson Trinity, Tioga, Stanley, Beulah, Fargo Oak Grove for now. Within around three years, Central Cass would join that mix. As valuations go up, more will join, and you can index the separator to inflation for adjustments. That way, only communities that get sizably larger at one time move.

The rest of the teams that are above the $4 million dollar number compete for four spots.

Would make for a nice state tournament. And we'd be right around that 32 team number people seem to like.

[The Schwab]

Schwab, part of the issue is that I was given bad data, particularly on Hazen, when I made my initial calls.

I can also say that these numbers will change in 2019, as Casselton is now over $9 million, and they are listed as over $8 million from the league of cities.

The bad data gave me a poor picture of where the cutoff should be. I'd propose the number move to $4 million. Those schools between 100-400 with taxable values of $4 million in their host city are middle division. Then divide that division into to a top end and bottom end, and give each division 4 spots in the state tournament.

The top part of that division could involve cities with over $10 million in taxables. That would separate out Valley City, Wahpeton, Watford City, Minot Ryan, Our Redeemers, Watford City, Trinity Christian, Dickinson Trinity, Tioga, Stanley, Beulah, Fargo Oak Grove for now. Within around three years, Central Cass would join that mix. As valuations go up, more will join, and you can index the separator to inflation for adjustments. That way, only communities that get sizably larger at one time move.

The rest of the teams that are above the $4 million dollar number compete for four spots.

Would make for a nice state tournament. And we'd be right around that 32 team number people seem to like.

I absolutely understand receiving bad data, happens a lot!! I feel, however, that if we don't include those schools whose enrollments are 150 or higher automatically in the middle class then we haven't really fixed the problem. I'd even compromise and put that number at 175. I don't want to sound like I'm going after one school in particular (because I'm really not), but any plan that doesn't have a school like Kindred in the middle class is flawed. Again, just my two cents.

[leroybla]

Should Kindred’s valuation also include the Hickson-Oxbow Area? There’s significant valuation there.

[Big Blue]

If I was in a school and these were our results the last 6 years in the 3 sports we sponsor by ourselves I'd say we have a pretty strong athletic traditions.

Boys Basketball- Region Runner Up, Region 3rd Place, Region 2nd Place, Region Champs, Region 3rd Place, Region 4th

Girls Basketball- Missed Regionals, Missed Regionals, Region Champs, Region 4th Place, Region Qualifier (lost by 2), Region Qualifier (lost by 2)

Volleyball- Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region 3rd place

To the Schwab: This is a basketball topic on a basketball forum. Throw volleyball out. The girls and boys programs have made had just one appearance in their school's history. Doesn't sound like tons of basketball tradition to me.
It appears if you are learning how to mold information into your favor more and more everyday (like someone else on this form who you have sparred constantly with over the years, but have recently seemed to find a common bond with). Just my opinion, but Our Redeemers and Trinity Christian are small schools that should play against other small schools. Maybe, we will have an opportuntiy to discuss this more in depth at next year's state tournament like you and heimer did this winter.

[Run4Fun2009]

If I was in a school and these were our results the last 6 years in the 3 sports we sponsor by ourselves I'd say we have a pretty strong athletic traditions.

Boys Basketball- Region Runner Up, Region 3rd Place, Region 2nd Place, Region Champs, Region 3rd Place, Region 4th

Girls Basketball- Missed Regionals, Missed Regionals, Region Champs, Region 4th Place, Region Qualifier (lost by 2), Region Qualifier (lost by 2)

Volleyball- Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region 3rd place

To the Schwab: This is a basketball topic on a basketball forum. Throw volleyball out. The girls and boys programs have made had just one appearance in their school's history. Doesn't sound like tons of basketball tradition to me.
It appears if you are learning how to mold information into your favor more and more everyday (like someone else on this form who you have sparred constantly with over the years, but have recently seemed to find a common bond with). Just my opinion, but Our Redeemers and Trinity Christian are small schools that should play against other small schools. Maybe, we will have an opportuntiy to discuss this more in depth at next year's state tournament like you and heimer did this winter.

The reason volleyball is part of the discussion is that the state won't take a 3 class system if that is not included...needs to cover GBB, BBB & VB; the State actually stated this when the first proposal came out a few years back. If 3-classes is going to happen it really needs to be 'sold' to the State 'leaders'.

[Big Blue]

If I was in a school and these were our results the last 6 years in the 3 sports we sponsor by ourselves I'd say we have a pretty strong athletic traditions.

Boys Basketball- Region Runner Up, Region 3rd Place, Region 2nd Place, Region Champs, Region 3rd Place, Region 4th

Girls Basketball- Missed Regionals, Missed Regionals, Region Champs, Region 4th Place, Region Qualifier (lost by 2), Region Qualifier (lost by 2)

Volleyball- Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region Champs, Region 3rd place

To the Schwab: This is a basketball topic on a basketball forum. Throw volleyball out. The girls and boys programs have made had just one appearance in their school's history. Doesn't sound like tons of basketball tradition to me.
It appears if you are learning how to mold information into your favor more and more everyday (like someone else on this form who you have sparred constantly with over the years, but have recently seemed to find a common bond with). Just my opinion, but Our Redeemers and Trinity Christian are small schools that should play against other small schools. Maybe, we will have an opportuntiy to discuss this more in depth at next year's state tournament like you and heimer did this winter.

The reason volleyball is part of the discussion is that the state won't take a 3 class system if that is not included...needs to cover GBB, BBB & VB; the State actually stated this when the first proposal came out a few years back. If 3-classes is going to happen it really needs to be 'sold' to the State 'leaders'.

I was speaking of basketball when I was talking about lack of a tradition. I understand that the NDHSAA will have volleyball as part of the 3-class system. We were talking about two different things.

[The Schwab]

I have my reasons for wanting the 3 class, other people have theirs. Some people don’t want the 3 class and that’s fine. I used the 3 sports that school has on its own to discuss their athletic tradition. How many class B schools have played in 6 straight region semi finals for boys? I’d venture to say not very many. I will gladly discuss my views on sports with anyone. My views and opinions come from my experiences, if people think I mold my thoughts to fit my needs that’s their opinion. My stand on 3 class is: if it doesn’t happen, the gap will widen. Sure we may have a Cinderella team every year, but they’ll play for 7th more than they’ll play for 1st

[Sorenson23]

I have my reasons for wanting the 3 class, other people have theirs. Some people don’t want the 3 class and that’s fine. I used the 3 sports that school has on its own to discuss their athletic tradition. How many class B schools have played in 6 straight region semi finals for boys? I’d venture to say not very many. I will gladly discuss my views on sports with anyone. My views and opinions come from my experiences, if people think I mold my thoughts to fit my needs that’s their opinion. My stand on 3 class is: if it doesn’t happen, the gap will widen. Sure we may have a Cinderella team every year, but they’ll play for 7th more than they’ll play for 1st

I'm all in a three class system. Their a total of 8 regions and these ones that won't change at all R1, R5, R6, R7. In both girls & boys basketball. That's half of the regions with the same teams. I for one want something different. If they don't propose a three class system. Then they should just have two classes for football as well.

Football - AAA, AA, A, 9 man
Volleyball - Class A & Class B
Basketball - Class A & Class B
Baseball & Softball - Class A & Class B
Track & Field & Golf - Class A & Class B

What's the NDHSAA trying to say they don't support a 3 class system. Are they trying to say theirs more football teams to have a four class system vs basketball which has a two class but as way more teams minus the co-ops.