3 class system

The Buzz on Class B.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:04 pm

I just did break down of Girls basketball on the teams going to state and little analysis just based on this year and I will see how boys comes out after the regionals too. The plan somebody put forth for three class system earlier in thread I did analysis how schools were represented this year in girls basketball through the regionals and now to state. This analysis was done based on traditional field of 8 teams in the regionals. We started with 33 teams that were under 120 enrollment and 31 teams with enrollment over after the first round was played we had 12 teams with under 120 enrollment left and 20 teams with enrollment over. Now in the finals we had break down 5 teams with under 120 enrollment and 11 teams with over 120 enrollment. With final beak down going to state 2 teams under 120 enrollment and 6 over 120 enrollment. Also I would like to point out the 2 regions sending teams under 120 enrollment have least number of teams over 120 enrollment in the state with only 5 schools out 26 being over that enrollment but even in these regions out of these 5 school one them each reached the championship game in their regions. Majority of the teams under 120 enrollment that lost in first round of the tournament lost by more than 15 points or even worse.
I believe this is showing what people have been pointing out what we have here in North Dakota class b basketball is being dominated by larger class b schools and if you look at proposed 3 class plan here in this thread class a schools are dominating number schools in state tournament and even in regional championship games. Now tell me how this is good for the sport or helps grow the sport unless all are you concerned about is top 30 to 40 schools in class b. We will see how this comes out in boys basketball but I willing to bet it will mirror this fairly closely.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:00 am

I respect the research but reject the notion that 120 students is the indicator of a 'big' class B school.

There are long-term trends that support the arguments for three classes. I acknowledge that. Now I hope that the three class supporters would acknowledge that this particular class B girls tournament field does not help their case. All 8 are public schools; Medina-P-B is the #1 seed with the Medina community being represented at state for the first time; and Grant County is making a repeat trip.

You would have to characterize five of the schools as small or medium-sized: Grant County, Thompson, MedinaPB, Killdeer, and Langdon. No one would ever point at these schools being the 'problem' with B. The largest school, Watford City, will be a heavy underdog in round one and will grow out of class B next year.

This is the type of tournament that the three class supporters have told us that we would not see anymore.

Someone might come along and tell you to root against Kindred and Watford because they are too big, or to root against Kindred and Thompson because of their proximity to larger metro areas. I think that's nonsense, but that's your call. Get to know the folks around your region and state and you'll probably find out that there are people of good character at your 'rival' school. Enjoy the B and the super 'A' as well, and we'll see how these tournaments shake out.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby HONKER » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:30 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:I respect the research but reject the notion that 120 students is the indicator of a 'big' class B school.

There are long-term trends that support the arguments for three classes. I acknowledge that. Now I hope that the three class supporters would acknowledge that this particular class B girls tournament field does not help their case. All 8 are public schools; Medina-P-B is the #1 seed with the Medina community being represented at state for the first time; and Grant County is making a repeat trip.

You would have to characterize five of the schools as small or medium-sized: Grant County, Thompson, MedinaPB, Killdeer, and Langdon. No one would ever point at these schools being the 'problem' with B. The largest school, Watford City, will be a heavy underdog in round one and will grow out of class B next year.

This is the type of tournament that the three class supporters have told us that we would not see anymore.

Someone might come along and tell you to root against Kindred and Watford because they are too big, or to root against Kindred and Thompson because of their proximity to larger metro areas. I think that's nonsense, but that's your call. Get to know the folks around your region and state and you'll probably find out that there are people of good character at your 'rival' school. Enjoy the B and the super 'A' as well, and we'll see how these tournaments shake out.

To me 2 small 2 medium and 4 large. Surprises me when someone says a school with over 100 more students than another school is still a small school.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:01 pm

MedinaPB and Grant County are certainly small. Thompson plays 9 man football and Killdeer opted up from 9 man to 'A.'

MedinaPB is the #1 seed and the strongest first round favorite and their opponent is the largest B school in the state. That's a pretty strong indicator that any enrollment disparity in 'B' is not insurmountable.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:16 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:MedinaPB is the #1 seed and the strongest first round favorite and their opponent is the largest B school in the state. That's a pretty strong indicator that any enrollment disparity in 'B' is not insurmountable.

obviously, any disparity isn't insurmountable if the conditions are perfect. MPB would probably be favored vs Minot. Does that mean anything? I don't think so.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:07 pm

A scenario where the MPB girls and the St. John boys win the B this year might mean nothing to this group, but if that’s the case, at least we have that truth out on the table ahead of time.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby HONKER » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:19 pm

Numbers are numbers. Every once in awhile a blind squirrel finds a nut.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:46 pm

Unfortunately, the quality of class B games has deteriorated overall.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:13 pm

Like I pointed out above the two schools of Medina and Grant county come from the two regions with the most schools under 120 enrollment. Also these are two good teams but they are once in life time squads to have this much talent on the floor with their numbers. Medina has 3 girls of 6 feet or taller not many of small colleges have that kind of size. Another point to be made is these two regions only combined had 5 schools of over 120 enrollment but out these 5 two were in the regional championship games. Under the proposed 3 class plan in this spread out of 8 regions the proposed class A schools from this plan had 11 schools in the championship game and there were 5 from class b. Class A schools had 6 that made state and 2 from class B. So these schools represented 75% of state tournament field from field of 32 and Class b had 25% state field from around 75 schools. These are numbers we have this year so you wonder why people are asking for something to be done. Bisonguy is worried because of how the numbers of schools shown above would be used to have 3 class system but for years they use schools like Medina and Grant county for the reason not to change. When in fact I believe this numbers above are more like it has been for more than 10 years. I also like to point out that there were number of blow out victories in majority of first round games against these larger schools in most of the regions. In the past a blow out game was maybe 20 points but we had games in opening round from around 30 to as high as 67 points in regional quarter final game. That means there were teams even weaker that didn't make the regional tournament also in same class. This means to me separation from top to bottom in talent is to far apart and its not in just one region its pretty much is showing up in all the regions. These numbers are just showing what people have been perceiving about class b today and if your from one of the 32 schools you don't see why you we need to change because you like being in championship games and being able to go to state every so often not like it was where you lucky to go more than once in 10 to 20 year period. Now just think about it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:11 pm

We are not on the same page. We have people calling schools with nine man football enrollment “big schools.”
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:23 pm

Enrollment for Class B GBB State Participants (taken from Member Schools Directory via NDHSAA website)
**A few schools are listed 7-12...but most are 9-12
Watford City - 365 (7-12) -> moving to Class A next year
Kindred - 204 (9-12)
Rugby - 175 (7-12)
Langdon/Edmore/Munich - 130 (9-12)/17 (9-12)/ 39 (7-12)
Killdeer - 138 (9-12)
Thompson - 138 (9-12)
Medina/Pingree-Buchanan - 54 (9-12)/49 (9-12)
Grant County - 63 (9-12)
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:00 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:Enrollment for Class B GBB State Participants (taken from Member Schools Directory via NDHSAA website)
**A few schools are listed 7-12...but most are 9-12
Watford City - 365 (7-12) -> moving to Class A next year
Kindred - 204 (9-12)
Rugby - 175 (7-12)
Langdon/Edmore/Munich - 130 (9-12)/17 (9-12)/ 39 (7-12)
Killdeer - 138 (9-12)
Thompson - 138 (9-12)
Medina/Pingree-Buchanan - 54 (9-12)/49 (9-12)
Grant County - 63 (9-12)


Only 2 out of 8 teams would be class B in SD.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:31 pm

What is the size enrollment for SD for class B. I was wondering if would mirror us where I think the break is around range of 125 to 135 enrollment.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:55 pm

B-oldtimer wrote:What is the size enrollment for SD for class B. I was wondering if would mirror us where I think the break is around range of 125 to 135 enrollment.


I believe 80 and below is B. Maybe 90 at the most.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:40 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:I respect the research but reject the notion that 120 students is the indicator of a 'big' class B school.


Agree with this.

Bisonguy06 wrote:Now I hope that the three class supporters would acknowledge that this particular class B girls tournament field does not help their case.


Of course it doesn't. However, it has been how long since this has happened? 6 years for girl's and 10 for boys? Also, this is why I disagree with the premise that if you make changes to boy's basketball, they have to be applicable to girl's basketball and volleyball. If you have weeds in your garden but not in your flower beds, you don't have to pull weeds in your flowerbeds. Sooner or later, girls will mimic boys and then apply the changes. If someone could explain the reason that changes have to be made to all 3 at the same time, it could help end this discussion. Is it a logistical or fiscal reason? I have never heard the explanation on this website.

Bisonguy06 wrote:
You would have to characterize five of the schools as small or medium-sized: Grant County, Thompson, MedinaPB, Killdeer, and Langdon. No one would ever point at these schools being the 'problem' with B. The largest school, Watford City, will be a heavy underdog in round one and will grow out of class B next year.


1 thing that has become very obvious is the bedroom communities have a much greater ability to open enroll. I would guess (with a pretty good degree of certainty) that some of these schools open enroll more students than 50% of the class b schools have for total enrollment from 9-12. This isn't a bad thing, just stating the obvious.

Bisonguy06 wrote:This is the type of tournament that the three class supporters have told us that we would not see anymore.


Not true. Less often, yes.

Have went back and forth for years on this. Not sure there is a better answer. Do enjoy discussing, throwing out ideas and hearing different opinions. Maybe some year a perfect solution will come from these discussions. :)
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Re: 3 class system

Postby boblee » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:57 pm

You can't whine about travel and complain about the two class system. Do you want Lisbon driving to Langdon on a Tuesday night?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:12 pm

boblee wrote:You can't whine about travel and complain about the two class system.


Please show an example of someone doing this.

In numerous ideas laid out, including up thread, travel would not change.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:01 pm

I get kick out you guys in analysis saying Langdon/Edmore/Munich, Killdeer, and Thompson medium size schools. If you would look at the thread plan where there is three classes all three of these schools are in division A schools. I would be curious who you would root for as home team by your comments above I get the feeling your from one top 32 class b schools. I grew up went to smaller school but my kids went to medium size school when they were in school. Today if I had kids going to school we would be one of the 32 in class b. I wonder and try to understand why there is such opposition to trying something new and addressing the problems we have in class b.
I saw it in legion baseball where they hated to have 3 classes of baseball said it would ruin baseball and wouldn't work. The result has been is that people have liked it and each division has had good state tournaments and the teams have done well representing us at the regional levels.
The biggest people against it was towns that were largest in small class of towns. They had all same reasons travel, not enough towns, watering down the level of play but it came down to is they didn't want to give up the advantage they had they wanted to be biggest fish in pond where they had advantage of winning their region year in year out.
We have same number of schools for football but here we have 5 classes of football to try level the competition. Come to basketball we can only have two classes now tell me why this is the case. Also football has fewer teams than basketball where we have so many of the small schools cooped for this sport to make up teams. We make that work and nobody complains there are too many classes of football and they have state playoffs for all the classes and state tournament for football. Are we just that afraid of change and think that we will loose what class b has meant for many years. Well I will tell you I may be old but I see where we have been loosing the young generation interest basketball they have moved on. I don't know if these changes would make a difference but we need to start doing something.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:01 pm

B-oldtimer wrote:I get kick out you guys in analysis saying Langdon/Edmore/Munich, Killdeer, and Thompson medium size schools. If you would look at the thread plan where there is three classes all three of these schools are in division A schools. I would be curious who you would root for as home team by your comments above I get the feeling your from one top 32 class b schools. I grew up went to smaller school but my kids went to medium size school when they were in school. Today if I had kids going to school we would be one of the 32 in class b. I wonder and try to understand why there is such opposition to trying something new and addressing the problems we have in class b.


Not sure who this is directed towards. IMHO, 120 students is not a description of a big class B school. Personally think it would be closer to 140+ in ND today. Use to use 170+ as my cutoff when putting together information, but that started over 20 years ago. However, to put together a plan as stated above thread (32 teams in middle) it brings schools of 135 - 140 into that range. That's where it gets tough when discussing these plans. How do you make the cutoff work.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:14 pm

BISONFAN18 wrote:
B-oldtimer wrote:What is the size enrollment for SD for class B. I was wondering if would mirror us where I think the break is around range of 125 to 135 enrollment.


I believe 80 and below is B. Maybe 90 at the most.


Cutoff is 90 for SD
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Re: 3 class system

Postby boblee » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:44 pm

classB4ever wrote:
boblee wrote:You can't whine about travel and complain about the two class system.


Please show an example of someone doing this.

In numerous ideas laid out, including up thread, travel would not change.


How would travel not change? I've been at the state meetings when it has been brought up. Travel WOULD change.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:27 pm

The Schwab wrote:Cutoff is 90 for SD

That seems low. MN smallest class is ~200.

Does SD have a strict cutoff mark or is it top XX are AA, next XX are A, and the rest are B?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:15 pm

boblee wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
boblee wrote:You can't whine about travel and complain about the two class system.


Please show an example of someone doing this.

In numerous ideas laid out, including up thread, travel would not change.


How would travel not change? I've been at the state meetings when it has been brought up. Travel WOULD change.


Because teams would not be required to just play teams in their division. All the schedules could basically remain the same, just the postseason tournaments would be different.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:38 pm

I have followed this conversation for a long time, many years, and it has shifted. Supporters of three classes used to want the middle class to be quite small, and made up of the very largest B schools plus the private schools.

Now it seems like people want a big group to move to the middle division, leaving a small number of small schools to play for their own title. I’m just wondering, what has changed?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:44 pm

I don't know if I've changed, but I would like ~ 20 in AA, 32 in A, and the rest in B.
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