3 class system

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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:54 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Yes, that is correct about Shiloh in Region 5 but does that give more merit to a 3 class system then?


As I have stated before, I have changed my opinion and think it's time for 3 classes. The private schools and bigger public schools have too big of an advantage over the rest. And, many of the coops that the remainder of the schools have entered into are already stretched to their logistical max.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:42 am

B Historian wrote:
The Schwab wrote:Yes Dickinson Trinity has only made 4 appearances at state the past 11 years, but they've played in the championship game 6 of the other 7 years. It's Region 7, but I know what you mean with those schools.


Beulah has finished at least 3rd in the region for I believe 10 years running and has made the same number of state appearances as Trinity since returning to Class B, including a state title. Beulah is just as big of a problem for the rest of R7 as Trinity, yet everyone complains about all of the unfair advantages that private schools like Trinity have while ignoring the advantages of the big public schools like Beulah.

I really think that if the private schools like Trinity, Ryan, Oak Grove and Shiloh didn't exist and Class B was instead completely dominated by the big public schools, there would be limited complaints about the current system.


Beulah lost in the first round of the regional tournament in 2015. I agree with you that Beulah is a big problem as well. I think where people have the most problem with Dickinson Trinity is the fact that the regional tournament is played on their home floor year after year.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:13 pm

I simply don't know the answer whether 3 classes would be good or bad. What I do know is that the landscape of ND has changed dramatically in the past 30 years. 10 years ago, believed making the state tournament in any sport should be the goal of every team and individual. However, in the past decade it has become glaringly obvious that many teams will never have that opportunity, especially in certain areas of the state. Is that good or bad?

Hard work, dedication, team play, unselfishness, all of these things are learned participating in athletics. You win some, you lose some. You will learn lessons whether winning or losing. Have followed ND sports for some 45+ years. Have debated this topic with numerous people and many times on this site. Have heard many great ideas and read great input. Have been fortunate enough to be able to play in and watch teams I follow closely, participate and even win state tournaments. It is a feeling I wish every athlete/parent/fan would get a chance to feel. But that's not how it works. Quite frankly, some teams have not and may never be good enough to make it to state let alone win a state tournament in a sport.

Not only has the landscape of ND changed in the past 30 years, but also the mentality of people have changed. Believe there is some truth in that technology, social media, etc. has changed our society into a "I have to have it now" mind set. That might be harsh, but believe there is truth to it.

Another thing noticed is many people who opposed 3 class proposals on this site in the past, change their minds after their child/local team who has had visions of making a trip to the state tournament get their hopes dashed by a gatekeeper.

Have never been a "trophies for all" person. Despise it. Frankly, would rather see 1 division of basketball in the state. That would settle all arguments. But that isn't happening. It would be like making all wrestlers compete in the same weight division. It isn't fair and participation would bottom out.

Sorry for the long winded rant. Just think if there is any chance in the world we can increase participation and keep sports alive and growing in our state, it's worth the debate and listening to ideas.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:00 pm

Another side note to this topic, I also feel the state needs to look at 2 divisions for hockey. If you're not from the 4 largest cities in ND you really have no shot at a title or slim shot at making it to state. I'm not a trophies for all person either, but in all reality you have half the teams that are at a huge disadvantage. Split into two divisions with a state tournament for each and eliminate the region tournaments. Everyone in each division qualifies for state.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:01 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Another side note to this topic, I also feel the state needs to look at 2 divisions for hockey. If you're not from the 4 largest cities in ND you really have no shot at a title or slim shot at making it to state. I'm not a trophies for all person either, but in all reality you have half the teams that are at a huge disadvantage. Split into two divisions with a state tournament for each and eliminate the region tournaments. Everyone in each division qualifies for state.


This could be said to be true in class B basketball as well.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:15 pm

So 18 teams for hockey needs to split into 10 & 8 for divisions? That seems like a meaningless state tourney to me..earning a trip to state should mean something; again just my opinion on that.

I get 3 class discussion for basketball because we have the teams to feasibly do it (just not the right system has been provided...and it will at some point). Hockey just doesn’t have enough teams!
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:45 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:So 18 teams for hockey needs to split into 10 & 8 for divisions? That seems like a meaningless state tourney to me..earning a trip to state should mean something; again just my opinion on that.

I get 3 class discussion for basketball because we have the teams to feasibly do it (just not the right system has been provided...and it will at some point). Hockey just doesn’t have enough teams!


Do you think it's meaningful for the GF, Fargo, and Bismarck teams when they know they have their ticket punched every year? I agree there are not many teams, but the disparity between teams is enough to warrant it in my opinion. Could actually grow the sport in the state in some of the larger B towns. When do you think another MPCG is going to come along and actually want to play Class A? If it were split I could see another 4-5 teams joining the bottom division.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:04 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:So 18 teams for hockey needs to split into 10 & 8 for divisions? That seems like a meaningless state tourney to me..earning a trip to state should mean something; again just my opinion on that.

I get 3 class discussion for basketball because we have the teams to feasibly do it (just not the right system has been provided...and it will at some point). Hockey just doesn’t have enough teams!


Do you think it's meaningful for the GF, Fargo, and Bismarck teams when they know they have their ticket punched every year? I agree there are not many teams, but the disparity between teams is enough to warrant it in my opinion. Could actually grow the sport in the state in some of the larger B towns. When do you think another MPCG is going to come along and actually want to play Class A? If it were split I could see another 4-5 teams joining the bottom division.



If you can get to 30+ teams in ND for B Hockey I could justify seeing 2 classes but anything less then that just doesn’t seem feasible or meaningful for 2 classes...again may be just me.

I know MN only has 2 classes for their 120+ teams Statewide.

Basketball in ND WILL have a 3-class system at some point...I’ve never denied that
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flying Wallenda » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:06 pm

classB4ever wrote:I simply don't know the answer whether 3 classes would be good or bad. What I do know is that the landscape of ND has changed dramatically in the past 30 years. 10 years ago, believed making the state tournament in any sport should be the goal of every team and individual. However, in the past decade it has become glaringly obvious that many teams will never have that opportunity, especially in certain areas of the state. Is that good or bad?

Hard work, dedication, team play, unselfishness, all of these things are learned participating in athletics. You win some, you lose some. You will learn lessons whether winning or losing. Have followed ND sports for some 45+ years. Have debated this topic with numerous people and many times on this site. Have heard many great ideas and read great input. Have been fortunate enough to be able to play in and watch teams I follow closely, participate and even win state tournaments. It is a feeling I wish every athlete/parent/fan would get a chance to feel. But that's not how it works. Quite frankly, some teams have not and may never be good enough to make it to state let alone win a state tournament in a sport.

Not only has the landscape of ND changed in the past 30 years, but also the mentality of people have changed. Believe there is some truth in that technology, social media, etc. has changed our society into a "I have to have it now" mind set. That might be harsh, but believe there is truth to it.

Another thing noticed is many people who opposed 3 class proposals on this site in the past, change their minds after their child/local team who has had visions of making a trip to the state tournament get their hopes dashed by a gatekeeper.

Have never been a "trophies for all" person. Despise it. Frankly, would rather see 1 division of basketball in the state. That would settle all arguments. But that isn't happening. It would be like making all wrestlers compete in the same weight division. It isn't fair and participation would bottom out.

Sorry for the long winded rant. Just think if there is any chance in the world we can increase participation and keep sports alive and growing in our state, it's worth the debate and listening to ideas.


This is a good post - I agree with about 98% of it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:08 pm

I really hope that people don't consider my advocating for a 3 class system as whining and everyone needs a trophy or a ribbon. My opinions come from my years of teaching a coaching in a small class B school. In our situation we have had some very successful teams in the past, never quite getting over the threshold to make the state tournament. Does that mean that we weren't successful and that lessons weren't learned? Absolutely not. In every small public class B school you will go through ups and downs, some years you will have the talent and some years you won't. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not.

Currently in class B basketball you have some schools that never go through the down years. I can think of a few off of the top of my head. What do most of them have in common? They are either a large public class B school or a private school. Whether you want to agree with me or not that's fine, I won't lose any sleep over it.

This is my main reason for supporting a 3 class system: Why should those small public class B schools have to wait for an "up year" to even have a shot at coming close to competing for a title? Why should those small schools in an "up year" have to hope that the gate keeper of the region (big school/private schools) don't have an "up year" by their standards? Why wouldn't we welcome a system that would put schools of like size and like demographics in the same class? It wouldn't water down class B (or what would now be class C). It would make it better.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ballaholic#3 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:27 pm

I love the Class B tournament more than anything in this state, and the fact is that the NDHSAA loves the Class B tournament as well. It is a major source of revenue, and they're not going to budge from that until a "perfect" 3 class plan is developed. The NDHSAA is likely NOT interested in figuring out a plan on their own, but they are reliant on other schools to come up with the "perfect" plan. The reality is that no perfect plan will come up, but over time, the kinks could work out. In my lowly opinion without looking into every avenue as I am sure there are some flaws, but why can't we 3 classes yet only 2 state tournaments? Example: 6 B regions, 2 A regions or even expand the field to 10-12 teams and figure it out. This way a much higher number of class 'C' schools make the state with an opportunity to be the best in both levels. Or the top two in each division play for one extra week in a final 4 scenario? My point is that there are options out there that exist where everyone can be happy. Just spitballing, but the reality is that some school district will need to come up with the plan with ZERO flaws instead of the NDHSAA putting their heads together and figuring it out.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:07 pm

This is where I disagree. Why does a school/AD have to come up with a three class solution that satisifies the majority of the member schools and the board? Why can't the schools just vote that a 3 class is necessary for competitive balance in the state? Then the board can come up with the guidelines on how to split it up.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:13 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:This is where I disagree. Why does a school/AD have to come up with a three class solution that satisifies the majority of the member schools and the board? Why can't the schools just vote that a 3 class is necessary for competitive balance in the state? Then the board can come up with the guidelines on how to split it up.


Because from what we've seen for the past few years...the board won't do it. It's sad but it's what we've seen from the past few plans, votes, etc.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:18 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:This is where I disagree. Why does a school/AD have to come up with a three class solution that satisifies the majority of the member schools and the board? Why can't the schools just vote that a 3 class is necessary for competitive balance in the state? Then the board can come up with the guidelines on how to split it up.


Because from what we've seen for the past few years...the board won't do it. It's sad but it's what we've seen from the past few plans, votes, etc.


The member schools are in charge. All they have to do is propose an amendment stating that basketball be divided into 3 divisions. If it passes, the board has to do it. Makes a lot more sense then trying to drum up support for certain plans. I have a feeling after a few years of Watford not having success in A along with Whap, VC, TM continuing to struggle plus the regulars advancing in the B each year we might get something happening.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ballaholic#3 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:58 pm

The only way it will work is this: a vote simply for a 3 class system. Yes or No. That would likely pass. Then, the NDHSAA would have to create a plan. What I'm saying is that the NDHSAA (at this time) appears disinterested in doing it that way. So, they are relying on an individual district to do all the legwork on a plan.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby woodchuck10 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:54 am

I’m a 2 class advocate for sure or a “modified” 2 class, top 32 B’s in 4 regions, the rest (75+) in 4 regions for 8 qualifiers (4 big, 4 small) in a state tournament. However if you were to tell me that if a 3 class system were to be voted in and each region had 1 or 2 co-ops disband I would probably support that 3 class system. Minnewaukan, Central Valley, Hatton and Northwood come to mind as well as others.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:00 pm

Let's face it, there is no "perfect" system. No matter what is suggested, it will never satisfy everyone.
Probably why nothing has been done. But if there truthfully are enough problems with our current 2 class system, then believe it's worth trying to figure out a better system. For quite some time on this thread, have been tweaking a "hybrid" system addressing "excuses" for not changing to a 3 class (ribbons for everyone, Hillsboro/Epping, travel, do it for boys have to do it for girls, etc.). Maybe should do a 180 and first decide what are the 5 biggest problems in our current 2 class system.

1. My biggest problem with our current system is the lack of parity between the 2 top teams in each district (or even region in some cases) and the rest of the field. Blow outs during regular season and tournaments are becoming the norm. The implementation of a mercy rule would be my evidence of this. Mercy rules are a band aid, not the fix to the problem.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby justplayalready » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:00 pm

classB4ever wrote:Let's face it, there is no "perfect" system. No matter what is suggested, it will never satisfy everyone.
Probably why nothing has been done. But if there truthfully are enough problems with our current 2 class system, then believe it's worth trying to figure out a better system. For quite some time on this thread, have been tweaking a "hybrid" system addressing "excuses" for not changing to a 3 class (ribbons for everyone, Hillsboro/Epping, travel, do it for boys have to do it for girls, etc.). Maybe should do a 180 and first decide what are the 5 biggest problems in our current 2 class system.

1. My biggest problem with our current system is the lack of parity between the 2 top teams in each district (or even region in some cases) and the rest of the field. Blow outs during regular season and tournaments are becoming the norm. The implementation of a mercy rule would be my evidence of this. Mercy rules are a band aid, not the fix to the problem.



Agree, and to further add its the same top 2 or 3 teams every year in the majority of the regions. The majority of these top 2-3 teams would be in the "new" class... Haves vs. have nots is getting more and more apparent.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Mandan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:28 pm

B Historian wrote:Dickinson Trinity had a great run up through about 2007 but has only made four state appearances in the last 11 seasons, finishing 3rd, 4th and 5th twice. Hettinger is the only public school in over 50 years from the southwest corner of the state (defined as west of the river, south of I-94) to win a state championship. Outside of Beulah, the other schools currently in R8 that have the size to compete for state berths (Hazen, Heart River, Killdeer) can't seem to get it together in basketball.


By your definition of south west, you are missing Standing Rock, whose boys won a championship in the 90s. Unless they don't count as a public school. I've always been a little confused on their structure, as I believe at one time there was a Fort Yates High school and Standing Rock High School open at the same time.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:50 am

Mandan wrote:
B Historian wrote:Dickinson Trinity had a great run up through about 2007 but has only made four state appearances in the last 11 seasons, finishing 3rd, 4th and 5th twice. Hettinger is the only public school in over 50 years from the southwest corner of the state (defined as west of the river, south of I-94) to win a state championship. Outside of Beulah, the other schools currently in R8 that have the size to compete for state berths (Hazen, Heart River, Killdeer) can't seem to get it together in basketball.


By your definition of south west, you are missing Standing Rock, whose boys won a championship in the 90s. Unless they don't count as a public school. I've always been a little confused on their structure, as I believe at one time there was a Fort Yates High school and Standing Rock High School open at the same time.


You are correct. I missed Standing Rock. But the point still stands, the SW corner of the state has not been a basketball hotbed which is at least partially responsible for the success Trinity has had over the years.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:09 pm

ballaholic#3 wrote:The only way it will work is this: a vote simply for a 3 class system. Yes or No. That would likely pass. Then, the NDHSAA would have to create a plan. What I'm saying is that the NDHSAA (at this time) appears disinterested in doing it that way. So, they are relying on an individual district to do all the legwork on a plan.


I don't think it's that simple. Let's face it. The real reason 3 classes has not been approved is because not enough small schools have ever been on board with it, even though it would be in their best interests to do so. The small schools have the numbers and voting power to make it happen but I think it will take someone at the grass roots level getting all of the small schools on the same page to make a vote succeed.

The Class B tournament is the crown jewel in ND sports and I think when it comes down to it the administrators at many schools are hesitant to have their name attached to voting for a new system that is not guaranteed to work. Having a specific system in place that breaks every class down into specific regions and addresses how to incorporate three classes into a tight window in March would be extremely helpful. I also think some collaboration with media on how TV exposure would work for a new structure would be beneficial prior to a vote. Putting to rest some of the fears people have of the unknown is what it's going to take to get 3 classes over the hump.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:13 pm

justplayalready wrote:
classB4ever wrote:Let's face it, there is no "perfect" system. No matter what is suggested, it will never satisfy everyone.
Probably why nothing has been done. But if there truthfully are enough problems with our current 2 class system, then believe it's worth trying to figure out a better system. For quite some time on this thread, have been tweaking a "hybrid" system addressing "excuses" for not changing to a 3 class (ribbons for everyone, Hillsboro/Epping, travel, do it for boys have to do it for girls, etc.). Maybe should do a 180 and first decide what are the 5 biggest problems in our current 2 class system.

1. My biggest problem with our current system is the lack of parity between the 2 top teams in each district (or even region in some cases) and the rest of the field. Blow outs during regular season and tournaments are becoming the norm. The implementation of a mercy rule would be my evidence of this. Mercy rules are a band aid, not the fix to the problem.



Agree, and to further add its the same top 2 or 3 teams every year in the majority of the regions. The majority of these top 2-3 teams would be in the "new" class... Haves vs. have nots is getting more and more apparent.


2. The state class B boys basketball tournament is becoming 75% predictable.

3. In the late '50s, NDHSAA had made an agreement with class C schools that if they would combine with them, class B/class A, they would never do away with the 3rd class without allowing the class C schools to vote on it, independently, from class A/class B. However, in '62-'63, NDHSAA and all of it's member schools, A, B and C, voted to get rid of class C. This went against the "gentlemen's agreement" they had and it was not very well received by class C schools.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:53 pm

Will not muddy up the water on main threads so will put this here. At this time of year, fans from teams that just get back from the state tournaments, generally teams that do well, start talking about "What it takes to compete." Following are some of the things which are being said.

1. "Start your kids early." It does have to start early. In my opinion you can spot talent in 3rd grade or even sooner. Generally this talent comes from genetics or parents working with kids. By the time kids are in 7th & 8th grade, all basic bb fundamentals should be like reading and writing.

2. "Any size school can start a program like we see at the state." No. This is not true. The schools that you can predict to go to state tournaments year in and year out have "plug and play programs". Yes, they have great programs, coaches, etc. But they also have enough players participating to simply plug them into their program year in and year out. I'm not saying they always have the same system. The really good coaches mold their system around the types of athletes they have and it's a fluid system. Changes year to year but still successful.

3. "These kids need to play AAU, ECI, etc. to get better." Yes and No. These programs are expensive. Not to mention kids out in the "sticks" have added travel expenses to and from practices. Also, most of the kids in the "sticks" are probably helping out their baseball programs, golf programs, softball programs, track programs or just working to pay for life essentials. But, if they get the chance, yes, it is a benefit. A benefit of getting exposed to better competition and learning different styles of basketball. I will add one thing extra. I believe basketball is getting away from good fundamentals and leaning towards "it's got to be me." The European players in college and pros show much better basic fundamentals at every level. But that is just a personal opinion with nothing to back it up.

4. "It doesn't matter what your school size is to be successful." This is a loaded statement. Many, many schools make it to state sooner or later. It is a run of genetics, coaching, leadership, etc. You cannot achieve this on a consistent basis in small schools any longer. It's not possible. Once again, these larger schools simply "plug and play." But this only matters if the state tournament is the ultimate goal. If your goal is about keeping a program alive then participation becomes the new agenda. Which is what I have been advocating.

5. "You only need 5 players to play the game." Honestly, it's pretty hard to practice and become better with only 5 players. And the chance of winning a 3 game tournament with even 6 or 7 players is a remarkable achievement. Not to mention, the best teams generally have 10 good players and it makes every practice that much better and competitive.

2 cents.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Class B » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:03 pm

3 class discussion with the NDHSAA won't die either. It appears on the agenda for their District Chair meeting on March 15.

https://ndhsaa.com/files/2018_19_Board_ ... _March.pdf
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sportsrube » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:06 pm

classB4ever wrote:Will not muddy up the water on main threads so will put this here. At this time of year, fans from teams that just get back from the state tournaments, generally teams that do well, start talking about "What it takes to compete." Following are some of the things which are being said.

1. "Start your kids early." It does have to start early. In my opinion you can spot talent in 3rd grade or even sooner. Generally this talent comes from genetics or parents working with kids. By the time kids are in 7th & 8th grade, all basic bb fundamentals should be like reading and writing.

2. "Any size school can start a program like we see at the state." No. This is not true. The schools that you can predict to go to state tournaments year in and year out have "plug and play programs". Yes, they have great programs, coaches, etc. But they also have enough players participating to simply plug them into their program year in and year out. I'm not saying they always have the same system. The really good coaches mold their system around the types of athletes they have and it's a fluid system. Changes year to year but still successful.

3. "These kids need to play AAU, ECI, etc. to get better." Yes and No. These programs are expensive. Not to mention kids out in the "sticks" have added travel expenses to and from practices. Also, most of the kids in the "sticks" are probably helping out their baseball programs, golf programs, softball programs, track programs or just working to pay for life essentials. But, if they get the chance, yes, it is a benefit. A benefit of getting exposed to better competition and learning different styles of basketball. I will add one thing extra. I believe basketball is getting away from good fundamentals and leaning towards "it's got to be me." The European players in college and pros show much better basic fundamentals at every level. But that is just a personal opinion with nothing to back it up.

4. "It doesn't matter what your school size is to be successful." This is a loaded statement. Many, many schools make it to state sooner or later. It is a run of genetics, coaching, leadership, etc. You cannot achieve this on a consistent basis in small schools any longer. It's not possible. Once again, these larger schools simply "plug and play." But this only matters if the state tournament is the ultimate goal. If your goal is about keeping a program alive then participation becomes the new agenda. Which is what I have been advocating.

5. "You only need 5 players to play the game." Honestly, it's pretty hard to practice and become better with only 5 players. And the chance of winning a 3 game tournament with even 6 or 7 players is a remarkable achievement. Not to mention, the best teams generally have 10 good players and it makes every practice that much better and competitive.

2 cents.


Excellent post.
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