3 class system

[ndlionsfan]

Simple solution, have a combined boys/girls state tournament for each class. Would fit the same three weekend window we have right now.

Am I going to travel to watch a A/B hybrid tournament that is fairly predictable that MAY have a David vs Goliath matchup once in 10 years? No. But I would make it a point each year to take in a smallest class state tournament in which I can watch the top boys and girls teams in that division battle it out with more than likely new teams in it each year.

The system proposed up thread (hybrid) essentially addresses every single complaint, excuse, etc. that has been brought up over the years. An attempt to "think outside the box" due to the fact that a proposed straight forward 3-class system has not went anywhere.

The main goal, however, is to get competitive basketball back during the course of the year, night in and night out. Try to eliminate blow outs and increase participation because that is what the discussion should be about.

Addressing the bold above, you could go watch the "Sweet 16 - B" tourney as proposed and see the exact same thing. Only difference is, it would be at the semi's level rather than final 8.

With that being said, B-Historian has always brought forth legitimate numbers and ideas and I hope his prediction on enrollments ring true, as his plan seems to be very workable.

Too big of a tournament to me with too many games. Would also rather have the option to switch it up and watch some girls games

[classB4ever]

Too big of a tournament to me with too many games. Would also rather have the option to switch it up and watch some girls games

Would be same amount of games (12) as standard 8 team tourney. 4 games a day, 3 days. Lose you are done. Only play down to 4 teams remaining and they would move on. Irregardless, understand your position.

[classB4ever]

If ND went to a 3-class system, in my opinion it makes no sense to do A/B as a hybrid simply to get a couple more small schools than average into the state tournament. I think a pure three class system is the way to go, but it has to be done right to make feasible. The biggest logistical problem is finding a way to fit six different state tournaments (between boys and girls) into about a 4 week window.

The system suggested has nothing to do with getting a "couple more small schools than average into the state tournament." For the past 22 years, there has been exactly 50% small schools and 50% large/private schools attending the state tournament, precisely what is suggested. You are suggesting bringing 8 more teams (3-class proposal) to the state tournament vs. exactly what has been attending for past 22 years.

Am I going to travel to watch a A/B hybrid tournament that is fairly predictable that MAY have a David vs Goliath matchup once in 10 years? No.

Fairly predictable? And our current system isn't?

How would it not be a David vs. Goliath match up every year? 4 teams from A playing 4 teams from B every year in the state tournament. The best of A vs. the best of B every year. Do you mean in the championship? As for that, it would be exactly the same as now, or maybe better, because some regions have had the best 2 teams in state and 1 has had to stay home. This system could allow both of them to attend.

Once again, probably has no chance. I like to discuss these issues and if you are going to shoot a proposal down, should be legit reasons. 2 cents.

[theman]

Just thought I add this little tidbit:

West Fargo public schools passed a new high school this fall, and I believe by 2020 (2021 maybe?) it's doors will open and West Fargo will have three public high schools, lowering enrollment at the first two, and increasing class A schools by 1.

[ndlionsfan]

Just thought I add this little tidbit:

West Fargo public schools passed a new high school this fall, and I believe by 2020 (2021 maybe?) it's doors will open and West Fargo will have three public high schools, lowering enrollment at the first two, and increasing class A schools by 1.

I also read in the Minot paper that their school board was looking at splitting into two separate high schools as well in the near future. Nothing decided yet, however.

[The Schwab]

Just thought I add this little tidbit:

West Fargo public schools passed a new high school this fall, and I believe by 2020 (2021 maybe?) it's doors will open and West Fargo will have three public high schools, lowering enrollment at the first two, and increasing class A schools by 1.

I also read in the Minot paper that their school board was looking at splitting into two separate high schools as well in the near future. Nothing decided yet, however.

And split up their sports teams? That might take a few years IMO

[BISONFAN18]

SD's middle class goes from total enrollment of 340-85 (Total) approximately and 183-46 approximately (male only). Both of these are based on 3 grades and the ADM or average daily membership (attendance). So if we extrapolate these numbers to cover 4 grades (as ND does in the football plan, where I will take my numbers). That would give us a total enrollment of 453- 113 and a male enrollment 244-61 if we'd adjust it to fit the numbers we have for our football plan. We currently have 36 schools in that range in North Dakota. That's right I said THIRTY-SIX. There's no way that we could possibly have a middle class with THIRTY-SIX teams, that's preposterous! We have approximately 130 basketball teams in ND. That would mean roughly 28 percent of our teams would be in the middle class. There are 178 teams in SD, 54 teams are in their middle class. 30 percent of their teams are in the middle class. It's preposterous to think that North Dakota could possibly have a middle class, that's a two percent difference, TWO percent. We couldn't possibly make that work.

North Dakota can make a middle class work, period.

1. I was saying this for years.
2. After seeing the latest proposals, I see the "special interests" and it is not worth changing. I now say leave it alone. It has gotten too messy.
3. 18 more teams in a league is huge. 36 and 54 are not the same. That is a 50% increase. Just putting a different perspective on it versus the 2% statistic that you put out. Will it work? Yes, I think so. Is it worth it at this point? No, I do not.

[The Schwab]

SD's middle class goes from total enrollment of 340-85 (Total) approximately and 183-46 approximately (male only). Both of these are based on 3 grades and the ADM or average daily membership (attendance). So if we extrapolate these numbers to cover 4 grades (as ND does in the football plan, where I will take my numbers). That would give us a total enrollment of 453- 113 and a male enrollment 244-61 if we'd adjust it to fit the numbers we have for our football plan. We currently have 36 schools in that range in North Dakota. That's right I said THIRTY-SIX. There's no way that we could possibly have a middle class with THIRTY-SIX teams, that's preposterous! We have approximately 130 basketball teams in ND. That would mean roughly 28 percent of our teams would be in the middle class. There are 178 teams in SD, 54 teams are in their middle class. 30 percent of their teams are in the middle class. It's preposterous to think that North Dakota could possibly have a middle class, that's a two percent difference, TWO percent. We couldn't possibly make that work.

North Dakota can make a middle class work, period.

1. I was saying this for years.
2. After seeing the latest proposals, I see the "special interests" and it is not worth changing. I now say leave it alone. It has gotten too messy.
3. 18 more teams in a league is huge. 36 and 54 are not the same. That is a 50% increase. Just putting a different perspective on it versus the 2% statistic that you put out. Will it work? Yes, I think so. Is it worth it at this point? No, I do not.

36 teams for tournaments. It would not limit the scheduling, you could have larger teams play smaller teams.

[spins]

From strictly a fans perspective (mostly mine)- i feel 3 classes of rural schools would water down signifgantly the aura that is the B tourney. Winning the "C" tourney would have the same effect.

Remove the privates from class B.

[Bison-Vikes #1]

From strictly a fans perspective (mostly mine)- i feel 3 classes of rural schools would water down signifgantly the aura that is the B tourney. Winning the "C" tourney would have the same effect.

Remove the privates from class B.

Removing privates from Class B doesn't solve anything. Creates more problems than it solves.

Also, would like to know how Class A has improved their brand of bb with 16-19 teams over the years and nobody says it's watered down. But having say, 32-40 teams in a Class B and 60-70 teams in a Class C, somehow waters it down? The reason why Class A isn't watered down, is because almost all their teams are very competitive and are "like" opponents. By expanding to 3 classes (has to be a legitimate proposal) Class A could become even better by moving some of the smaller schools to Class B, along with better, more even competition in every class. Doesn't really matter, because the powers that be don't want to change it. Year after year will go by and people just get tired of fighting for it because nothing gets done. Well, my bad, they did install a mercy rule.

Reminds me of our politicians and news media. Keep feeding ridiculous reasons and talking points and everybody buys into it. 1. Watered down. 2. Everyone gets a trophy. 3. Travel. 4. Hillsboro/Epping. 5. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 6. If you do it for boys, have to do it for girls.

[BISONFAN18]

From strictly a fans perspective (mostly mine)- i feel 3 classes of rural schools would water down signifgantly the aura that is the B tourney. Winning the "C" tourney would have the same effect.

Remove the privates from class B.

Removing privates from Class B doesn't solve anything. Creates more problems then it solves.

Also, would like to know how Class A has improved their brand of bb with 16-19 teams over the years and nobody says it's watered down. But having say, 32-40 teams in a Class B and 60-70 teams in a Class C, somehow waters it down? The reason why Class A isn't watered down, is because almost all their teams are very competitive and are "like" opponents. By expanding to 3 classes (has to be a legitimate proposal) Class A could become even better by moving some of the smaller schools to Class B, along with better, more even competition in every class. Doesn't really matter, because the powers that be don't want to change it. Year after year will go by and people just get tired of fighting for it because nothing gets done. Well, my bad, they did install a mercy rule.

Reminds me of our politicians and news media. Keep feeding ridiculous reasons and talking points and everybody buys into it. 1. Watered down. 2. Everyone gets a trophy. 3. Travel. 4. Hillsboro/Epping. 5. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 6. If you do it for boys, have to do it for girls.

Don't forget that NDHSAA also made a rule that all conference games count as a "varsity" game on the schedule. This was another clear sign that the quality of basketball has degraded. No more sending your JV to play the conference doormat.

[Bison-Vikes #1]

Don't forget that NDHSAA also made a rule that all conference games count as a "varsity" game on the schedule. This was another clear sign that the quality of basketball has degraded. No more sending your JV to play the conference doormat.

Good catch. Gotta love those blowouts. Have you noticed how all the successful teams are traveling across the state from the beginning of the seasons now? Granted, don't get into district/region play early, but still. Always get a kick out of the "travel is too expensive excuse" except every team has no problem driving across the state to play good teams now days. Could it be because they want quality games against like opponents and they don't have many of those in the current system? Asking for a friend.

[ndlionsfan]

Don't forget that NDHSAA also made a rule that all conference games count as a "varsity" game on the schedule. This was another clear sign that the quality of basketball has degraded. No more sending your JV to play the conference doormat.

Good catch. Gotta love those blowouts. Have you noticed how all the successful teams are traveling across the state from the beginning of the seasons now? Granted, don't get into district/region play early, but still. Always get a kick out of the "travel is too expensive excuse" except every team has no problem driving across the state to play good teams now days. Could it be because they want quality games against like opponents and they don't have many of those in the current system? Asking for a friend.

FWM has put on some miles already this season. Played Bismarck, Minot, Grafton, Beulah, Dunseith, Oak Grove and would have played Thompson at Hillsboro if not for the weather. Thompson now coming to FW the end of Jan. Granted a couple of these were home games this year but played away last season. Don't tell me travel is an issue, especially since we had a football division that went from Whapeton to Watford to Belcourt.

[Bison-Vikes #1]

Thompson now coming to FW the end of Jan. .

That place will be rocking. Any chance for Sports Center? haha. Believe they did it for Leeds/FW-M back in the day. What an atmosphere/game it was.

Don't tell me travel is an issue, especially since we had a football division that went from Whapeton to Watford to Belcourt.

Precisely.

[Run4Fun2009]

Thompson now coming to FW the end of Jan. .

That place will be rocking. Any chance for Sports Center? haha. Believe they did it for Leeds/FW-M back in the day. What an atmosphere/game it was.

Don't tell me travel is an issue, especially since we had a football division that went from Whapeton to Watford to Belcourt.

Precisely.

I thought Thompson/FWM played in Grand Forks in early February...Thompson girls are going to FW on January 26th as a rescheduled game from HCV holiday cancellations

[spins]

From strictly a fans perspective (mostly mine)- i feel 3 classes of rural schools would water down signifgantly the aura that is the B tourney. Winning the "C" tourney would have the same effect.

Remove the privates from class B.

Removing privates from Class B doesn't solve anything. Creates more problems than it solves.

Also, would like to know how Class A has improved their brand of bb with 16-19 teams over the years and nobody says it's watered down. But having say, 32-40 teams in a Class B and 60-70 teams in a Class C, somehow waters it down? The reason why Class A isn't watered down, is because almost all their teams are very competitive and are "like" opponents. By expanding to 3 classes (has to be a legitimate proposal) Class A could become even better by moving some of the smaller schools to Class B, along with better, more even competition in every class. Doesn't really matter, because the powers that be don't want to change it. Year after year will go by and people just get tired of fighting for it because nothing gets done. Well, my bad, they did install a mercy rule.

Reminds me of our politicians and news media. Keep feeding ridiculous reasons and talking points and everybody buys into it. 1. Watered down. 2. Everyone gets a trophy. 3. Travel. 4. Hillsboro/Epping. 5. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 6. If you do it for boys, have to do it for girls.

The POINT of class B Basketball is rural towns/schools competing for a state championship. Privates schools are not rural schools. Its going to be a moot point soon because schools like Nedrose is a Minot public class B school that will likely dominate sooner than later.

You're right, Class A basketball isn't watered down--its just not nearly as popular which might be why you don't hear people complaining about it.

I understand the disparity in talent among class B schools, but the big picture is...a class B and a Class C will make both less interesting and engaging. There is a clear and obvious difference between class A and class B right now---

[Flip]

The POINT of class B Basketball is rural towns/schools competing for a state championship.

Where does it say that?

There is a clear and obvious difference between class A and class B right now---

when was there not "clear and obvious difference between class A and class B?"

[classB4ever]

The #1 team in the state played the #3 team in the state and not one comment about it on this site. Class B basketball is dying. Listened to a gentleman on Thursday who said his team, top 5 team in state, has half the following it use to. Nothing is being done. In 10 years, there will be less than 80 teams in the state. That is with increasing population in ND. You heard it hear first.

[packers21]

The #1 team in the state played the #3 team in the state and not one comment about it on this site. Class B basketball is dying. Listened to a gentleman on Thursday who said his team, top 5 team in state, has half the following it use to. Nothing is being done. In 10 years, there will be less than 80 teams in the state. That is with increasing population in ND. You heard it hear first.

There was talk about it on this site and it was played infront of a capacity crowd. Crowds at the state b have been record high. I would look more at that team either being spoiled over the years with great b-ball or guy that thinks everything about the ole days was better. The ball that is being played right now is As good as it ever has been in the state.

[classB4ever]

The #1 team in the state played the #3 team in the state and not one comment about it on this site. Class B basketball is dying. Listened to a gentleman on Thursday who said his team, top 5 team in state, has half the following it use to. Nothing is being done. In 10 years, there will be less than 80 teams in the state. That is with increasing population in ND. You heard it hear first.

There was talk about it on this site and it was played infront of a capacity crowd. Crowds at the state b have been record high. I would look more at that team either being spoiled over the years with great b-ball or guy that thinks everything about the ole days was better. The ball that is being played right now is As good as it ever has been in the state.

Have missed 3 state tournaments in 35+ years. Go to all 12 games while there. Don't tell me about record crowds. That's pure BS and parroting what people want you to believe. Also, the quality of basketball being played should go up as athletes get bigger and stronger. Has nothing to do with declining participation and lost fan base.

[packers21]

The #1 team in the state played the #3 team in the state and not one comment about it on this site. Class B basketball is dying. Listened to a gentleman on Thursday who said his team, top 5 team in state, has half the following it use to. Nothing is being done. In 10 years, there will be less than 80 teams in the state. That is with increasing population in ND. You heard it hear first.

There was talk about it on this site and it was played infront of a capacity crowd. Crowds at the state b have been record high. I would look more at that team either being spoiled over the years with great b-ball or guy that thinks everything about the ole days was better. The ball that is being played right now is As good as it ever has been in the state.

Have missed 3 state tournaments in 35+ years. Go to all 12 games while there. Don't tell me about record crowds. That's pure BS and parroting what people want you to believe. Also, the quality of basketball being played should go up as athletes get bigger and stronger. Has nothing to do with declining participation and lost fan base.

And I’ve been to the past 25+ You can focus on the negatives, the dome n civic have been sold out, the game is being played at a all time high. Enjoy it.

[classB4ever]

The #1 team in the state played the #3 team in the state and not one comment about it on this site. Class B basketball is dying. Listened to a gentleman on Thursday who said his team, top 5 team in state, has half the following it use to. Nothing is being done. In 10 years, there will be less than 80 teams in the state. That is with increasing population in ND. You heard it hear first.

There was talk about it on this site and it was played infront of a capacity crowd. Crowds at the state b have been record high. I would look more at that team either being spoiled over the years with great b-ball or guy that thinks everything about the ole days was better. The ball that is being played right now is As good as it ever has been in the state.

Have missed 3 state tournaments in 35+ years. Go to all 12 games while there. Don't tell me about record crowds. That's pure BS and parroting what people want you to believe. Also, the quality of basketball being played should go up as athletes get bigger and stronger. Has nothing to do with declining participation and lost fan base.

And I’ve been to the past 25+ You can focus on the negatives, the dome n civic have been sold out, the game is being played at a all time high. Enjoy it.

Being sold out and having stands full of fans are 2 different things. Agreed? Also, I could could make legitimate points that the game hasn't gotten better. However, will take your advice and enjoy it. Maybe start watching soccer. Isn't that becoming really popular?

[packers21]

I will admit the state b should never be in forks or Fargo. You could probably get a really cheap dish package for ur soccer. Good Luck!

[ndlionsfan]

The #1 team in the state played the #3 team in the state and not one comment about it on this site. Class B basketball is dying. Listened to a gentleman on Thursday who said his team, top 5 team in state, has half the following it use to. Nothing is being done. In 10 years, there will be less than 80 teams in the state. That is with increasing population in ND. You heard it hear first.

While I don't disagree with you that interest in Class B basketball and high school sports in general is dying, there are multiple reasons for this and not just an easy fix. I feel coops have played a big role in the fact that most people came out to watch the local team because they knew all the kids playing. Now you have kids from 2-3 towns making up a team and there's not as much local interest. Participation is down as more kids have many other options instead of playing sports each season, which lead to more coops. Or kids focus on a single sport because they now require kids to be involved year round instead of just in season. Technology gives us access to all the sports information we need so going to the games isn't as important as it used to be. Even just look at this site. The technology has basically passed the use of forums and other methods are used. So just because this site is more quiet doesn't mean things aren't being discussed over different mediums. Also, high school sports in ND is not the biggest draw anymore with high level sports programs in the state such as NDSU and UND, plus UMary and Minot have moved up to a higher level of play and even the Juco athletics are more of a draw than they were in the past. The larger papers don't even cover much local sports anymore. The news stations are a joke when it comes to coverage of class B. Lots of reasons why interest is down and not just an easy fix of going to 3 classes. However, I do believe three classes is necessary to help curb the problem.

[classB4ever]

The #1 team in the state played the #3 team in the state and not one comment about it on this site. Class B basketball is dying. Listened to a gentleman on Thursday who said his team, top 5 team in state, has half the following it use to. Nothing is being done. In 10 years, there will be less than 80 teams in the state. That is with increasing population in ND. You heard it hear first.

While I don't disagree with you that interest in Class B basketball and high school sports in general is dying, there are multiple reasons for this and not just an easy fix. I feel coops have played a big role in the fact that most people came out to watch the local team because they knew all the kids playing. Now you have kids from 2-3 towns making up a team and there's not as much local interest. Participation is down as more kids have many other options instead of playing sports each season, which lead to more coops. Or kids focus on a single sport because they now require kids to be involved year round instead of just in season. Technology gives us access to all the sports information we need so going to the games isn't as important as it used to be. Even just look at this site. The technology has basically passed the use of forums and other methods are used. So just because this site is more quiet doesn't mean things aren't being discussed over different mediums. Also, high school sports in ND is not the biggest draw anymore with high level sports programs in the state such as NDSU and UND, plus UMary and Minot have moved up to a higher level of play and even the Juco athletics are more of a draw than they were in the past. The larger papers don't even cover much local sports anymore. The news stations are a joke when it comes to coverage of class B. Lots of reasons why interest is down and not just an easy fix of going to 3 classes. However, I do believe three classes is necessary to help curb the problem.

Agree with everything you posted. As packer21 stated above about a successful team who has been losing followers, "maybe they have gotten spoiled." When many of the same teams are going to state every year, to the point it is predictable, you will lose fans and interest. We are now there. Even the teams who are going to state lose fans due to, "been there, done that," which IMO has created a double edged sword.