3 class system

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Re: 3 class system

Postby justplayalready » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:38 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
justplayalready wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.


What is the % of bigs or privates that aren't playing tonight?


Using about 200 for HS enrollment is what I used for the big cutoff. If a school was at 195, I still counted them as big. Using that same method of what I got the 20 teams in regionals as big/private there are only 2 teams that fall in that category not still playing (DLB and New Town). All private schools are still playing. So 9% of bigs/privates have been eliminated.

In contrast 38/82 "small" schools have been eliminated for 46%


Only one I thought of was Carrington, no idea on their enrollment
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:50 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:I’ve said that North Dakota’s middle is small, and perhaps too small to justify a third class.

I’d like simple answers to these questions:

How many schools have 9-12 enrollment between 250 and 750?
How many schools have 9-12 enrollment between 200 and 600?

Or, show me any grouping of schools in the middle with no more than a 3x enrollment gap from top to bottom. I think you need minimum 16 schools, but I’d entertain a middle as small as 12.


Region 1A (2.8:1)
Valley City High School 339
Wahpeton High School 333
Central Cass High School 227
Kindred High School 200
Lisbon High School 178
Northern Cass High School 162
Milnor/North Sargent 140
Oak Grove High School 123

Region 2A (2:1)
Grafton Spoilers 268
Four Winds/Minnewaukan 231
Hillsboro/Central Valley 213
Langdon Area/Edmore/Munich 176
May-Port CG HS 153
Carrington High School 148
Park River/Fordville-Lankin 143
Thompson High School 132

Region 3A (3.6:1)
Watford City 387
Bottineau High School 195
Stanley High School 192
Dunseith High School 190
Harvey/Wells County 181
Des Lacs-Burlington HS 175
Rugby High School 166
Bishop Ryan High School 109

Region 4A (1.9:1)
New Town High School 261
Beulah High School 201
Standing Rock Community High School 200
Hazen High School 174
Heart River 174
Dickinson Trinity High School 150
Killdeer High School 142
Shiloh Christian High School 140


These are older numbers, 2019 I believe. However, should be close and answers your question. Take Minot Bishop Ryan out of the mix and all 31 fit inside your requirements.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:48 am

So your approach is 150 to 450, give or take. This works. It does have some problems.

When I look at those schools with enrollment under 200, I don’t see a bunch of Goliaths that need to be moved up and out of class B. I think the fine folks in Milnor, Park River, Dunseith and Killdeer might agree.

Watford City is north of 450 now, I believe.

Saint Mary’s and Shanley would belong in this grouping. You’ve assumed that they’d opt up or otherwise be
drawn into the top class.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:05 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:I’ve said that North Dakota’s middle is small, and perhaps too small to justify a third class.

I’d like simple answers to these questions:

How many schools have 9-12 enrollment between 250 and 750?
How many schools have 9-12 enrollment between 200 and 600?

Or, show me any grouping of schools in the middle with no more than a 3x enrollment gap from top to bottom. I think you need minimum 16 schools, but I’d entertain a middle as small as 12.


How many schools have 9-12 enrollment between 250 and 750? 8 according to 20-21 enrollment data from DPI
Belcourt, DL, Wahp, WC, VC, CC, New Town, and Grafton (247). Kindred at 237 and Beulah 216. Jamestown at 767.

How many schools have 9-12 enrollment between 200 and 600? 20 including co-ops
The 10 listed above plus Dunseith, Stanley, DLB, Rugby, NC, Lisbon, Botno. FWM and HCV would also fall here, South Heart at 196 also. Can't find enrollment data on Standing Rock, but guessing they are close. Hazen is the next step down at 180. Data does not include private schools.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:14 am

ndlionsfan wrote:Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.


15 out of 32 are big/privates for semifinals (47%).

3 of the bigs/privates that lost were playing another big/private (Lisbon, Heart River, Our Redeemers). Region 8 had two lose to small schools with Trinity Christian and Stanley.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:32 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:So your approach is 150 to 450, give or take. This works. It does have some problems.

When I look at those schools with enrollment under 200, I don’t see a bunch of Goliaths that need to be moved up and out of class B. I think the fine folks in Milnor, Park River, Dunseith and Killdeer might agree.

Watford City is north of 450 now, I believe.

Saint Mary’s and Shanley would belong in this grouping. You’ve assumed that they’d opt up or otherwise be
drawn into the top class.


Could care less what HSAA wants to do any more. You asked a question and I gave you an answer. Tired of this debate and people who use tired old excuses or don’t believe there’s a problem. Keep it the way you want. I enjoyed the #1-#4 game in Region 4 last night. We need more of that. I suggest we bring more teams down from A to create more parity and better games in A and see smaller schools get their a-ses kicked even more.

I do like the way you address things though. Almost speak like a politician concerning your feelings for the fine folks as mentioned above. Make you a deal. Leave middle class as B and move small schools to C. Then those schools you mention never get moved at all. :D
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:51 am

justplayalready wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
justplayalready wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.


What is the % of bigs or privates that aren't playing tonight?


Using about 200 for HS enrollment is what I used for the big cutoff. If a school was at 195, I still counted them as big. Using that same method of what I got the 20 teams in regionals as big/private there are only 2 teams that fall in that category not still playing (DLB and New Town). All private schools are still playing. So 9% of bigs/privates have been eliminated.

In contrast 38/82 "small" schools have been eliminated for 46%


Only one I thought of was Carrington, no idea on their enrollment


Carrington is 156 so they were not considered a big school
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:14 am

As identified above, North Dakota has 8 public schools with enrollment between 250 and 750.
In the same enrollment range, South Dakota has 20 such schools.

https://www.sdhsaa.com/Athletics/Classi ... 118-by-adm

Our middle tier of schools is a small tier, by this measure or by any other, and any three class plan should reflect that.

I'll let this thread solve this generational problem. I'm not a problem solver, just a politician ;)
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:26 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:
I'll let this thread solve this generational problem. I'm not a problem solver, just a politician ;)


Ha. Didn't mean to get personal. Just don't believe anything will ever be done so waste of time debating. At this point, I would prefer a 1 class system and be done with it. 1 trophy at the end of the year. However, must schedule everybody in your area 1 time per year so everyone gets the warm fuzzy feeling of 75 point wins and losses on a regular basis. That should take care of participation levels in a hurry.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:26 am

I think the 200-600 is a much more reasonable and achievable scenario for our state, though. That would keep all of the divisions in roughly a 3:1 ratio from largest to smallest.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:34 am

Our 3 class system doesn't have to match South Dakota, our make up is different. Having 16-24 teams in the middle class with enrollments between 150-450 and the private schools would solve the issue in our state. Like I've said many times, give teams the option to opt down if they meet certain criteria (look at participation numbers and record over the past 5 years etc... then you won't have teams without a chance to compete moving up to the middle class), the criteria for class assignment should not be based only on enrollment. I don't know about anyone else, but seeing a team win by 100 in a regional tournament game is not a good look for the competitive balance in our state.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:48 am

The Schwab wrote:Our 3 class system doesn't have to match South Dakota, our make up is different. Having 16-24 teams in the middle class with enrollments between 150-450 and the private schools would solve the issue in our state. Like I've said many times, give teams the option to opt down if they meet certain criteria (look at participation numbers and record over the past 5 years etc... then you won't have teams without a chance to compete moving up to the middle class), the criteria for class assignment should not be based only on enrollment. I don't know about anyone else, but seeing a team win by 100 in a regional tournament game is not a good look for the competitive balance in our state.


I just don't like the 150-450 number. I think a plan needs to be drawn that improves all classes of basketball. If it's 450 at the top, that only moves Wahp and VC down. WC, DL, and TCMS are not going to compete at the Class A ranks very often.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:58 am

The Schwab wrote:Our 3 class system doesn't have to match South Dakota, our make up is different. Having 16-24 teams in the middle class with enrollments between 150-450 and the private schools would solve the issue in our state. Like I've said many times, give teams the option to opt down if they meet certain criteria (look at participation numbers and record over the past 5 years etc... then you won't have teams without a chance to compete moving up to the middle class), the criteria for class assignment should not be based only on enrollment. I don't know about anyone else, but seeing a team win by 100 in a regional tournament game is not a good look for the competitive balance in our state.


On that point, we agree. I was appalled to read 122 to 21 as a final score.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:01 pm

That was due mainly to a covid issue and forfeits.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:02 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
The Schwab wrote:Our 3 class system doesn't have to match South Dakota, our make up is different. Having 16-24 teams in the middle class with enrollments between 150-450 and the private schools would solve the issue in our state. Like I've said many times, give teams the option to opt down if they meet certain criteria (look at participation numbers and record over the past 5 years etc... then you won't have teams without a chance to compete moving up to the middle class), the criteria for class assignment should not be based only on enrollment. I don't know about anyone else, but seeing a team win by 100 in a regional tournament game is not a good look for the competitive balance in our state.


I just don't like the 150-450 number. I think a plan needs to be drawn that improves all classes of basketball. If it's 450 at the top, that only moves Wahp and VC down. WC, DL, and TCMS are not going to compete at the Class A ranks very often.


That's where the opt down option comes in. Montana has a set of criteria for schools to opt down. I think North Dakota could have some criteria for that.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:03 pm

classB4ever wrote:That was due mainly to a covid issue and forfeits.


That very well may be the case, but 122-21 is ridiculous.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:13 pm

The Schwab wrote:
classB4ever wrote:That was due mainly to a covid issue and forfeits.


That very well may be the case, but 122-21 is ridiculous.


Rolette would have not made it out of their district if it wasn't for a forfeit. Score could have been much worse. I know it was 43-0 at one point and 76-2 at the half. I don't think it was a case of a coach running up the score. Just two teams that were very unevenly matched.

This isn't the only example of why we need a 3 class system, but is the root cause. My guess is that Rolette and Rolla will co-op possibly as soon as next year as both struggle to compete on their own. FSHP is in the same boat. Can't compete with the larger schools in the region to build a program, so looking at another co-op. All of this will lead to less participation for the schools involved and overall in our state. Participation numbers are already at a critical low and co-ops are not the answer.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:26 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.


15 out of 32 are big/privates for semifinals (47%).

3 of the bigs/privates that lost were playing another big/private (Lisbon, Heart River, Our Redeemers). Region 8 had two lose to small schools with Trinity Christian and Stanley.


Tonight 6/16 games have big/privates against another big/private.
7/16 games have small vs. small.
3 games have a split matchup - Botno vs DA, Trinity vs Bowman, Enderlin vs OG
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:37 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
classB4ever wrote:That was due mainly to a covid issue and forfeits.


That very well may be the case, but 122-21 is ridiculous.


Rolette would have not made it out of their district if it wasn't for a forfeit. Score could have been much worse. I know it was 43-0 at one point and 76-2 at the half. I don't think it was a case of a coach running up the score. Just two teams that were very unevenly matched.

This isn't the only example of why we need a 3 class system, but is the root cause. My guess is that Rolette and Rolla will co-op possibly as soon as next year as both struggle to compete on their own. FSHP is in the same boat. Can't compete with the larger schools in the region to build a program, so looking at another co-op. All of this will lead to less participation for the schools involved and overall in our state. Participation numbers are already at a critical low and co-ops are not the answer.


I know it wasn't coach running up the score, FWM could have scored 200 last night. It does point out the glaring need for a 3 class system.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby woodchuck10 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:15 pm

The Schwab wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
classB4ever wrote:That was due mainly to a covid issue and forfeits.


That very well may be the case, but 122-21 is ridiculous.


Rolette would have not made it out of their district if it wasn't for a forfeit. Score could have been much worse. I know it was 43-0 at one point and 76-2 at the half. I don't think it was a case of a coach running up the score. Just two teams that were very unevenly matched.

This isn't the only example of why we need a 3 class system, but is the root cause. My guess is that Rolette and Rolla will co-op possibly as soon as next year as both struggle to compete on their own. FSHP is in the same boat. Can't compete with the larger schools in the region to build a program, so looking at another co-op. All of this will lead to less participation for the schools involved and overall in our state. Participation numbers are already at a critical low and co-ops are not the answer.


I know it wasn't coach running up the score, FWM could have scored 200 last night. It does point out the glaring need for a 3 class system.

If a third class would keep Rolla/Rolette and DP/Lakota, etc from co-oping and also disband some co-ops like Hear River, Four Winds-M, Hatton-Northwood and others, then I think a lot more people would be in favor of it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:52 pm

A team like Enderlin gets knocked off in semi finals in class b. Wow. Like every year, OG flies under the radar and turns it on at the end of the year. Coach is really good and program is outstanding.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby leroybla » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:48 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:A team like Enderlin gets knocked off in semi finals in class b. Wow. Like every year, OG flies under the radar and turns it on at the end of the year. Coach is really good and program is outstanding.

Enderlin lacked the depth to run with Oak Grove. Oak Grove was hot and Enderlin got tired and missed a lot of shots.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:20 am

ndlionsfan wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.


15 out of 32 are big/privates for semifinals (47%).

3 of the bigs/privates that lost were playing another big/private (Lisbon, Heart River, Our Redeemers). Region 8 had two lose to small schools with Trinity Christian and Stanley.


Tonight 6/16 games have big/privates against another big/private.
7/16 games have small vs. small.
3 games have a split matchup - Botno vs DA, Trinity vs Bowman, Enderlin vs OG


9/16 for the finals are big/privates (56%). Percentage has gone up for each round. That is also 9/24 of the total teams in class B I have considered as big/private for this data. So, 38% of the bigs/privates are still playing while only 9% of the small schools are still alive (7 out of 82) with two of those directly related to the fact that Region 3 has no big/private schools.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:35 am

ndlionsfan wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Just did a quick count at the start of the region quarterfinals for boys tonight. 20 of the 64 teams are what I'd classify as big schools or privates. 31% to start out. Will be interesting to see what percent is on region champ night.


15 out of 32 are big/privates for semifinals (47%).

3 of the bigs/privates that lost were playing another big/private (Lisbon, Heart River, Our Redeemers). Region 8 had two lose to small schools with Trinity Christian and Stanley.


Tonight 6/16 games have big/privates against another big/private.
7/16 games have small vs. small.
3 games have a split matchup - Botno vs DA, Trinity vs Bowman, Enderlin vs OG


9/16 for the finals are big/privates (56%). Percentage has gone up for each round. That is also 9/24 of the total teams in class B I have considered as big/private for this data. So, 38% of the bigs/privates are still playing while only 9% of the small schools are still alive (7 out of 82) with two of those directly related to the fact that Region 3 has no big/private schools.


Darn! I was one off on my semis, but right on with the championships.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:46 am

The Schwab wrote:Darn! I was one off on my semis, but right on with the championships.


I would be willing to bet you could predict the semis for next year and do just about as well. :D
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