3 class system

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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:37 pm

Yearly Predictions (Big School 170+ 9-12):
Region 1: Big School/Private 67%
Region 2: Big School 59%
Region 3: A Small School 84%
Region 4: FWM vs. field > 50%
Region 5: Shiloh Christian vs. field > 54%
Region 6: Big School/Private 63%
Region 7: Beulah/Dickinson Trinity 84%
Region 8: A Small School 67%

2021 Region Predictions:
Region 1: Oak Grove/Enderlin vs. Kindred. If healthy, think Kindred goes to state.
Region 2: HCV vs. Grafton. HCV seems to be getting better as season progresses. HCV
Region 3: Ellendale vs. EKM Toss up. Will pick EKM
Region 4: FWM vs. Langdon. FWM, size, depth and experience.
Region 5: Shiloh Christian vs. Flasher SC experience and depth.
Region 6: Rugby vs. Minot Bishop Ryan Toss up. Think Rugby will regroup.
Region 7: Beulah vs. Dickinson Trinity Toss up. Going with gym. Love to see Bowman county sneak in.
Region 8: White Shield vs. Powers Lake Love to see Jesse make it, but experience to PL.

Average Yearly State Results:
1st Place - Big/Private 67%
2nd Place - Big/Private 59%
3rd Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50
4th Place - Small 58%
5th Place - Big/Private 59%
6th Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50
7th Place - Small 63%
8th Place - Small 58%

Average finish for last 7 years by Region:

Region 4 2.14
Region 6 3.29
Region 1 3.86
Region 2 4.71
Region 3 4.71
Region 7 4.71
Region 5 5.57
Region 8 6.86


Not knowing seeding or who will be there, will still give it a shot.
2021 State Tourney Prediction:
1st Place - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (R4)
2nd Place - Kindred (R1)
3rd Place - Dickinson Trinity (R7)
4th Place - HCV (R2)
5th Place - Rugby (R6)
6th Place - Shiloh Christian (R5)
7th Place - EKM (R3) (This would be my Cinderella team to win it all and they could)
8th Place - Powers Lake (R8)

*Note - Nothing against any teams and certainly will be cheering for the underdogs. Good luck to all players and teams. Stay healthy and have fun.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ND Basketball Fan » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:17 pm

Not knowing seeding or who will be there, will still give it a shot.
2021 State Tourney Prediction:
1st Place - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (R4)
2nd Place - Kindred (R1)
3rd Place - Dickinson Trinity (R7)
4th Place - HCV (R2)
5th Place - Rugby (R6)
6th Place - Shiloh Christian (R5)
7th Place - EKM (R3) (This would be my Cinderella team to win it all and they could)
8th Place - Powers Lake (R8)

Here are my predictions for Class B State this year:
1st Four Winds
2nd Dickinson Trinity
3rd Enderlin
4th Grafton
5th EKM
6th Rugby
7th Shiloh - I think the easiest path to State
8th White Shield

Should be entertaining!
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Re: 3 class system

Postby BasketballMind » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:32 pm

Is the state tournament going to have a consolation bracket?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby scc » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:39 pm

BasketballMind wrote:Is the state tournament going to have a consolation bracket?

Yes
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:57 pm

Saw a stat today that Central Cass or Kindred have been in the Region 1 girls championship in 16 straight years.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:04 pm

Dickinson Trinity boys have only missed something like 1 region title game in the past 20+ year
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Re: 3 class system

Postby packers21 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:06 pm

The Schwab wrote:Dickinson Trinity boys have only missed something like 1 region title game in the past 20+ year


Shiloh has a similar stat but atleast the Regional Tournament isnt played on their home court.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:10 pm

The Schwab wrote:Dickinson Trinity boys have only missed something like 1 region title game in the past 20+ year

It was in a different thread and you mentioned how you don't know if the two-class system in girls basketball is broken, but you thought it was broken in boys basketball. I think it is more broken in girls. At least on the eastern side of the state, there is way less parity.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:35 pm

On the western side of the state:

Boys:

Region 5- Broken in respect to Bismarck Shiloh, other schools seem to rotate being up and down. In the last 15 seasons it's been Bismarck at state 10 times. Verdict = Broken

Region 6- A lot of big schools and a couple privates. In the past 15 season outside of Berthold and their 3 appearances, been dominated by Rugby and Minot privates. Verdict = Broken

Region 7- 3 appearances in the last 15 years by schools other than Dickinson Trinity and Beulah. Verdict = Broken

Region 8- 9 different reps at state in the last 15 years. Verdict = Not Broken

Girls Side:

Region 5- Bismarck Shiloh has been at state 7 times since 2005, teams like New Salem and Grant County have made 3 or more trips in that time. Verdict = Broken

Region 6- Past 9 reps have been Rugby or Privates, 6 years before that had a few smaller reps. Verdict = Broken

Region 7 - Different schools have represented the region. Verdict = Not Broken

Region 8- Only 5 different reps in the past 15 years, has been less broken since Watford went up. Verdict = Becoming less broken
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:44 pm

Eastern side of state added to Schwab's above post:

Overview of boy's region reps for last 25 years (B = Big, P = Private/Parochial, S = Small):
Region 1 - 25% of schools (B/P) represent region 54% of the time. Broken
Region 2 - 12.5% of schools (B) represent region 60% of the time. Broken
Region 3 - 93.75% of schools (S) represent region 84% of the time. ? (No P's and only 1 B for 9 of 25 years)
Region 4 - 87.5% of schools (S) represent region 68% of the time. ?
Region 5 - 6.25% of schools (P) represent region 56% of the time. Broken
Region 6 - 25% of schools (B/P) represent region 64% of the time. Broken
Region 7 - 12.5% of schools (B/P) represent region 84% of the time. Broken
Region 8 - 81.25% of schools (S) represent region 64% of the time. ?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:19 pm

So after reading about the SODAK 16 in main thread, think that there could be a mixture of what is upthread here and the SODAK 16 format.
AA stays the same, maybe limit to 20 or so.
A is current bigger class b schools and private. Think 32 is listed above.
B are the rest.
Break it up as stated upthread. East and West for AA. 4 regions for A, 4 regions for B. Probably have super regionals for A, districts and regionals for B. Play it down to the top 2 teams in each region for A and B. Let's say you did this on Monday & Tuesday nights. Seed after that. Then on Thursday follow the SODAK 16 format, 1 plays 16, 2 plays 15, etc., at a neutral court midway. This would allow a day to set travel plans. Also allows both A and B teams to have gotten there playing like opponents and allows the best teams to advance to the state tourney.
This solves a lot of problems. Keeps state tourneys at 2. Allows smaller schools to play against like teams. Makes districts meaningful again. With expanded regions, makes regional tourneys a must watch. And lastly, brings the best teams to state.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:51 pm

There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:57 pm

Flip wrote:There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.


Fair enough. Explanation why? It seems to address every single complaint.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:19 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
Flip wrote:There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.


Fair enough. Explanation why? It seems to address every single complaint.

It is just too out of the box if that makes any sense. I think we would be the first state to have any type of hybrid state tournament. ND isn't that much of a trendsetter.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:22 pm

Flip wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
Flip wrote:There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.


Fair enough. Explanation why? It seems to address every single complaint.

It is just too out of the box if that makes any sense. I think we would be the first state to have any type of hybrid state tournament. ND isn't that much of a trendsetter.


You got me on that one and yes, it does make sense.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:48 pm

Flip wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
Flip wrote:There are a lot of people that think a 3-class system will never happen. They may be right, but one thing I'm quite sure of is we will not go to a hybrid system.


Fair enough. Explanation why? It seems to address every single complaint.

It is just too out of the box if that makes any sense. I think we would be the first state to have any type of hybrid state tournament. ND isn't that much of a trendsetter.


Believe Delaware, Hawaii and ND are only 3 states left with 2 classes. Delaware only plays 1 tournament at the end of the year. Kentucky is 1 class. Believe Kentucky has a midseason state championship for smaller schools then 1 overall state championship at the end of the year.

From 2019 numbers, the average number of classes for boy's basketball in US high schools was 5. Using the population of each state divided by the number of classes, ND was the 13th lowest in population per class. ND is the 4th lowest in total population followed by Alaska, Vermont and Wyoming who all have 4 classes. Of course, ND would still be higher than those 3 in population/class if they went to 3 classes. (*Note - since high school enrollments are very hard to find, assuming student:population ratio remains about the same for this discussion)

Addressing ND not being a trendsetter, if you study high school basketball class systems across the US, it is amazing what you will find. There are approximately 25 states that use some type of multiplier, success ratio or other means to determine classes or to classify between private/parochial and public schools. There are many different formats for state tournaments as well. For instance, New Jersey has multiple state champions and bring them all together for Tournament of Champions. I don't think ND would be setting any trends by going with the above proposed system.

There are problems in our current 2 class system. My biggest issue in class b basketball is the lack of parity in each region (generally top 2 teams vs. the field), participation numbers dwindling and the fact the class b state tournament has become predictable. If there is a system that would remedy those problems and most likely make for a better end of the year product (tournaments), why wouldn't it make sense to give it a shot?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:45 am

There is a conversation going on in another thread concerning media coverage of class b sports. Does it surprise anybody about the lack of coverage? General consensus of large town dwellers is rural folks are hicks. It explains a lot about the NDHSAA as well. They have lost touch with the majority of their members. The class b tourney might be their cash cow, but I don’t believe they give a rats a$$ about small schools and their students. Believe the NDHSAA brings in just over $2.3 million in revenue. Although we are one of the lowest populated states- our activities association’s revenue is one of the highest. Their expenditures are around $2.1 million. If what I read is correct, approximately $1.2 million is paid in salaries and benefits to their 9 employees. That means a 501c 3 nonprofit is spending over half their revenue running the organization. Just like politicians running our country and the media lying for them, maybe the NDHSAA should start listening a bit more to their constituents.
Last edited by Bison-Vikes #1 on Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Baller » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:01 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:There is a conversation going on in another thread concerning media coverage of class b sports. Does it surprise anybody about the lack of coverage? General consensus of large town dwellers is rural folks are hicks. It explains a lot about the NDHSAA as well. They have lost touch with the majority of their members. The class b tourney might be their cash cow, but I don’t believe they give a rats a$$ about small schools and their students. Believe the NDHSAA brings in just over $2.3 million in revenue. Although we are one of the lowest populated states- our activities association’s revenue is one of the highest. Their expenditures are around $2.1 million. If what I read is correct, approximately $1.2 million is paid in salaries and benefits to their 9 employees. That means a 501 3c nonprofit is spending over half their revenue running the organization. Just like politicians running our country and the media lying for them, maybe the NDHSAA should start listening a bit more to their constituents.


Not sure where you get 1.2 Million.....If your figures are correct, that leave $200,000 for 9 employees which is an average of $22,222 per year per person....
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:04 pm

wouldn't salaried employees count as an expense?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:20 pm

Baller wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:There is a conversation going on in another thread concerning media coverage of class b sports. Does it surprise anybody about the lack of coverage? General consensus of large town dwellers is rural folks are hicks. It explains a lot about the NDHSAA as well. They have lost touch with the majority of their members. The class b tourney might be their cash cow, but I don’t believe they give a rats a$$ about small schools and their students. Believe the NDHSAA brings in just over $2.3 million in revenue. Although we are one of the lowest populated states- our activities association’s revenue is one of the highest. Their expenditures are around $2.1 million. If what I read is correct, approximately $1.1 million is paid in salaries and benefits to their 9 employees. That means a 501c 3 nonprofit is spending over half their revenue running the organization. Just like politicians running our country and the media lying for them, maybe the NDHSAA should start listening a bit more to their constituents.


Not sure where you get 1.2 Million.....If your figures are correct, that leave $200,000 for 9 employees which is an average of $22,222 per year per person....


It was $860k for 9 employees which is around $96k per employee. The other $320k is for miscellaneous expenses. $841k in other expenses. Figures were found here:

https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/n ... 450229318/
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:35 pm

Watford city girls play Century today for the WDA championship. I’m just wondering where this group sees that fitting into the larger three class narrative.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:38 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:Watford city girls play Century today for the WDA championship. I’m just wondering where this group sees that fitting into the larger three class narrative.

They would be the favorite in the middle class.

Watford City boys just finished their season 0-21. Giving up 94.5 points per game.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:36 pm

That’s another way of saying that the Watford boys would be non-contenders in a middle class or in class B Region 8.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:01 am

Looked at the championships and the region qualifier games in Class A from this past weekend. 18 of the 24 teams involved in boys and girls were from Fargo or Bismarck. Sprinkle in a DL, Whap, Jamestown x 2, and WC and there is not much balance in Class A either. I think a few of those Class A teams coming down could really add a nice middle class.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:14 pm

24 teams?
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