3 class system

[B Historian]

Some food for thought:

Earlier in this thread I proposed a 3-class system with 40 schools in the middle class and 69 in the small school class.

Through this point in the season, the 40 schools in that would theoretically make up a middle class have a record of 234-185 for a .558 winning percentage. The 69 schools in the small school class are 324-381 for a .460 winning percentage. Of course the percentages may be skewed a bit by the fact that the larger schools tend to travel the state to play each other more than they used to. But still, I would have thought the discrepancy in winning percentage might be higher.

[ndlionsfan]

Some other food for thought:

It popped in my head today that I wonder how coops fare in getting to state and if that has any validity with the three class argument. So I went back to 2003 (first year girls switched to winter and thought 15 years was good) and here is what I found. I counted coops that consisted of two or more high schools that qualified for state. For instance, teams like MPCG, Dakota Prairie, Drake-Anamoose, New Rockford-Sheyenne were not counted as coops since they only involve a single high school.

For the girls, 21 coop teams have qualified for state since 2003 which accounts for 17% of the total participants. This includes PRFL which made it 4 times and Lakota-Edmore which went 3. This season there are 31 coop teams out of 107 total teams for 29%.

For the boys, only 16 coop teams have qualified for state accounting for 13%. This includes FW-M going 4 times and Linton-HMB 3. If you add in HCV and Lamoure-LM each going twice, only a total of 9 coop teams have qualified for state in the last 15 years. This season there are 30 coop teams out of 108 total for 28%.

[hoophoophoop]

3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it

[classB4ever]

3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it

Please give examples of how it would "ruin basketball". Seems there are 45+ states with more than 2 classes that would prove you wrong. Granted, each state has a different mix of school enrollments. Irregardless, I don't think James Naismith is rolling in his grave due to 3+ class systems in other states.

[BISONFAN18]

3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it

AAU ball is already doing that.

[Flip]

3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it

Please give examples of how it would "ruin basketball". Seems there are 45+ states with more than 2 classes that would prove you wrong. Granted, each state has a different mix of school enrollments. Irregardless, I don't think James Naismith is rolling in his grave due to 3+ class systems in other states.

I think there are 49 states with 3+ classes for basketball.

[The Schwab]

After some research here's what I came up with for individual states:

Alabama- 7 classes
Alaska- 4 classes
Arizona- 6 classes
Arkansas- 6 classes
California- 7 classes
Colorado- 5 classes
Connecticut- 5 classes
Delaware- 2 classes 1 tournament (22 team bracket on boys, 21 on girls
Florida- 9 classes
Georgia- 8 classes (one class just for small private schools)
Hawaii- 2 classes (they seem to divide those classes by islands)
Idaho- 6 classes
Illinois-4 classes
Indiana- 4 classes
Iowa- 4 classes
Kansas- 8 classes
Kentucky- 1 class (16 regions)
Louisiana- 12 classes
Maine- 5 classes
Maryland- 4 classes
Massachusetts- 4 classes
Michigan- 4 classes
Minnesota- 4 classes
Mississippi- 6 classes
Missouri- 5 classes
Montana- 4 classes
Nebraska- 6 classes
Nevada- 4 classes
New Hampshire- 4 classes
New Jersey- 6 classes (4 public, 2 private)
New Mexico- 6 classes
New York- 5 classes (all public schools)
North Carolina- 4 classes
Ohio- 4 classes
Oklahoma- 7 classes
Oregon- 6 classes
Pennsylvania- 6 classes
Rhode Island- 3 classes
South Carolina- 5 classes
South Dakota-3 classes
Tennessee- 4 classes
Texas- 6 classes
Utah- 6 classes
Vermont- 4 classes
Virginia- 6 classes
Washington- 6 classes
West Virginia- 3 classes
Wisconsin- 5 classes
Wyoming- 4 classes

[Flip]

Delaware has two divisions that play for one state title. Kentucky has one division.

Thanks.
I asked that question one time and I don't think I ever got answer.

[classB4ever]

Using above information, here are the states with Classes, Population and Population/Class (largest to smallest):

State Classes Population Population/Class
California ___ 7 ___ 39,776,830.00 ___ 5,682,404.29
Texas ___ 6 ___ 28,704,330.00 ___ 4,784,055.00
Kentucky ___ 1 ___ 4,472,265.00 ___ 4,472,265.00
New York ___ 5 ___ 19,862,512.00 ___ 3,972,502.40
Illinois ___ 4 ___ 12,768,320.00 ___ 3,192,080.00
Ohio ___ 4 ___ 11,694,664.00 ___ 2,923,666.00
North Carolina ___ 4 ___ 10,390,149.00 ___ 2,597,537.25
Michigan ___ 4 ___ 9,991,177.00 ___ 2,497,794.25
Florida ___ 9 ___ 21,312,211.00 ___ 2,368,023.44
Pennsylvania ___ 6 ___ 12,823,989.00 ___ 2,137,331.50
Massachusetts ___ 4 ___ 6,895,917.00 ___ 1,723,979.25
Tennessee ___ 4 ___ 6,782,564.00 ___ 1,695,641.00
Indiana ___ 4 ___ 6,699,629.00 ___ 1,674,907.25
Maryland ___ 4 ___ 6,079,602.00 ___ 1,519,900.50
New Jersey ___ 6 ___ 9,032,872.00 ___ 1,505,478.67
Virginia ___ 6 ___ 8,525,660.00 ___ 1,420,943.33
Minnesota ___ 4 ___ 5,628,162.00 ___ 1,407,040.50
Georgia ___ 8 ___ 10,545,138.00 ___ 1,318,142.25
Washington ___ 6 ___ 7,530,552.00 ___ 1,255,092.00
Missouri ___ 5 ___ 6,135,888.00 ___ 1,227,177.60
Arizona ___ 6 ___ 7,123,898.00 ___ 1,187,316.33
Wisconsin ___ 5 ___ 5,818,049.00 ___ 1,163,609.80
Colorado ___ 5 ___ 5,684,203.00 ___ 1,136,840.60
South Carolina ___ 5 ___ 5,088,916.00 ___ 1,017,783.20
Iowa ___ 4 ___ 3,160,553.00 ___ 790,138.25
Nevada ___ 4 ___ 3,056,824.00 ___ 764,206.00
Connecticut ___ 5 ___ 3,588,683.00 ___ 717,736.60
Hawaii ___ 2 ___ 1,426,393.00 ___ 713,196.50
Oregon ___ 6 ___ 4,199,563.00 ___ 699,927.17
Alabama ___ 7 ___ 4,888,949.00 ___ 698,421.29
West Virginia ___ 3 ___ 1,803,077.00 ___ 601,025.67
Oklahoma ___ 7 ___ 3,940,521.00 ___ 562,931.57
Utah ___ 6 ___ 3,159,345.00 ___ 526,557.50
Arkansas ___ 6 ___ 3,020,327.00 ___ 503,387.83
Mississippi ___ 6 ___ 2,982,785.00 ___ 497,130.83
Delaware ___ 2 ___ 971,180.00 ___ 485,590.00
Louisiana ___ 12 ___ 4,682,509.00 ___ 390,209.08
North Dakota ___ 2 ___ 755238 ___ 377,619.00
Kansas ___ 8 ___ 2,918,515.00 ___ 364,814.38
Rhode Island ___ 3 ___ 1,061,712.00 ___ 353,904.00
New Mexico ___ 6 ___ 2,090,708.00 ___ 348,451.33
New Hampshire ___ 4 ___ 1,350,575.00 ___ 337,643.75
Nebraska ___ 6 ___ 1,932,549.00 ___ 322,091.50
South Dakota ___ 3 ___ 877,790.00 ___ 292,596.67
Idaho ___ 6 ___ 1,753,860.00 ___ 292,310.00
Maine ___ 5 ___ 1,341,582.00 ___ 268,316.40
Montana ___ 4 ___ 1,062,330.00 ___ 265,582.50
Alaska ___ 4 ___ 738,068.00 ___ 184,517.00
Vermont ___ 4 ___ 623,960.00 ___ 155,990.00
Wyoming ___ 4 ___ 573,720.00 ___ 143,430.00

[ndlionsfan]

How in the world does Louisiana do 12 classes???

[The Schwab]

They have 7 classes and 5 divisions. From what I can figure out it appears that all of the divisions are made up of private schools/charter schools (non public schools)

[B Historian]

When you look at the history of Class B basketball I think the "Golden Age" was from the 1973-74 season (first season of 8 team regionals and first state tournament in the Bismarck Civic Center) through the 1991-92 season (last season before the reduction to 16 districts).

If you look at what made that period great there are a few main factors:

1. The Civic Center was a great venue and held the majority of the tournaments. When the MSU Dome was added to the rotation later it too was a fine facility.

2. Oak Grove in 1986 was the only private school to make a state tournament appearance. It was literally teams from 8 small towns each season making it to state. By the mid to late 90's Minot Ryan and Dickinson Trinity were tournament regulars.

3. You had a villain for everyone to root against (Hillsboro and Ed Beyer) and ND's "Hoosiers" moment (Hillsboro-Epping).

4. Media coverage was outstanding considering the times. Go look at the Tribune or Forum archives and compare coverage from the 70's and 80's to today. TV coverage was also very good.

5. Although the media coverage was very good, it also was still limited enough to add some mystery to the regional and state tournaments. Many teams didn't really know where they stood going into regional tournaments because they hadn't played anyone outside of an hour radius all season. This made it fun. Nowadays teams not only criss-cross the state to play each other but there is also video of most teams available online.

6. There were school district consolidations during that time period, but not yet the rampant development of coops that we have seen the last 20 years. Each town and school seemed to have more of its own "identity." There are only a couple of coops I can think of during that period that people really questioned. One was when Lankin and Adams combined in 1983-84 (and subsequently made the state tournament). When the talent dried up a couple of years later that coop fell apart. People also made fun of Glenfield-Sutton-McHenry in the early 80's. I remember the talk at the state tournament being "every year they come back here they have added another town!"

Since the mid-90's Class B has evolved greatly with the private schools starting to dominate in certain regions and many more coops forming. What we now have four types of schools left in Class B basketball:

1. Private Schools
2. Traditionally large Class B Schools (Rugby, Grafton, Beulah, etc.)
3. Schools that benefit from proximity to bigger cities (Thompson, Kindred, HCV etc.)
4. Everyone Else

It's the "Everyone Else" category that would make up the third class. When you look at the schools in it, they obviously are fighting an uphill battle being smaller but they also "stuck" in the sense that most have already entered into coops to the furthest point logistically feasible. They would be fine competing with other like schools but have a difficult time competing with those in the first three groups. It seems the gap between the "Everyone Else" category and the others widens a little bit more each year.

I used to be against a third class but have changed my tune over the last year or so after looking at all the facts. Enrollment trends at many Class B schools are beginning to reverse themselves a bit after years of decline, but there is no going back to the golden age of Class B with 32 districts and more parity among schools than what exists today. A third class would give the 70 or so smallest schools a chance to compete on a more level playing field which would be beneficial for everyone.

[hoophoophoop]

3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it

Please give examples of how it would "ruin basketball". Seems there are 45+ states with more than 2 classes that would prove you wrong. Granted, each state has a different mix of school enrollments. Irregardless, I don't think James Naismith is rolling in his grave due to 3+ class systems in other states.

I think there are 49 states with 3+ classes for basketball.

Delaware has two divisions that play for one state title. Kentucky has one division.

1. Travel, will have to travel farther to find games and region games.

2. No Cinderella teams anymore

3.Not every kid was meant to go to state, why not just have 8 classes then every one can go, being sarcastic.

4.It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days, you have 3 really good players with some complementary players you can hang with the bigger schools, look at Milnor in 2013, they won state with two great players, now if they would have a 3 class system then that state title doesn't mean as much in my opinion. Take Richland this year, they will compete this year and next year to go to state, you have a 3 class system they probably cruise through that class with a couple state titles, and doesn't mean as much, Two years from now they don't probably win a game for a couple years. Just the way it

[theman]

When you look at the history of Class B basketball I think the "Golden Age" was from the 1973-74 season (first season of 8 team regionals and first state tournament in the Bismarck Civic Center) through the 1991-92 season (last season before the reduction to 16 districts).

If you look at what made that period great there are a few main factors:

1. The Civic Center was a great venue and held the majority of the tournaments. When the MSU Dome was added to the rotation later it too was a fine facility.

2. Oak Grove in 1986 was the only private school to make a state tournament appearance. It was literally teams from 8 small towns each season making it to state. By the mid to late 90's Minot Ryan and Dickinson Trinity were tournament regulars.

3. You had a villain for everyone to root against (Hillsboro and Ed Beyer) and ND's "Hoosiers" moment (Hillsboro-Epping).

4. Media coverage was outstanding considering the times. Go look at the Tribune or Forum archives and compare coverage from the 70's and 80's to today. TV coverage was also very good.

5. Although the media coverage was very good, it also was still limited enough to add some mystery to the regional and state tournaments. Many teams didn't really know where they stood going into regional tournaments because they hadn't played anyone outside of an hour radius all season. This made it fun. Nowadays teams not only criss-cross the state to play each other but there is also video of most teams available online.

6. There were school district consolidations during that time period, but not yet the rampant development of coops that we have seen the last 20 years. Each town and school seemed to have more of its own "identity." There are only a couple of coops I can think of during that period that people really questioned. One was when Lankin and Adams combined in 1983-84 (and subsequently made the state tournament). When the talent dried up a couple of years later that coop fell apart. People also made fun of Glenfield-Sutton-McHenry in the early 80's. I remember the talk at the state tournament being "every year they come back here they have added another town!"

Since the mid-90's Class B has evolved greatly with the private schools starting to dominate in certain regions and many more coops forming. What we now have four types of schools left in Class B basketball:

1. Private Schools
2. Traditionally large Class B Schools (Rugby, Grafton, Beulah, etc.)
3. Schools that benefit from proximity to bigger cities (Thompson, Kindred, HCV etc.)
4. Everyone Else

It's the "Everyone Else" category that would make up the third class. When you look at the schools in it, they obviously are fighting an uphill battle being smaller but they also "stuck" in the sense that most have already entered into coops to the furthest point logistically feasible. They would be fine competing with other like schools but have a difficult time competing with those in the first three groups. It seems the gap between the "Everyone Else" category and the others widens a little bit more each year.

I used to be against a third class but have changed my tune over the last year or so after looking at all the facts. Enrollment trends at many Class B schools are beginning to reverse themselves a bit after years of decline, but there is no going back to the golden age of Class B with 32 districts and more parity among schools than what exists today. A third class would give the 70 or so smallest schools a chance to compete on a more level playing field which would be beneficial for everyone.

I think this is an incredibly reasonable explanation of why a 3 class system would be effective. It seems that one argument against keeps coming from those who think travel costs are too expensive, but most of the teams in Class B top 10 this year have went out of their way to play other top 10 schools 2 or more hours away. It's already happening. Travel is a reality of living in North Dakota. What about Williston in Class A? You think they like going to Bismarck many times every season for region games? Go 3-class.

[BISONFAN18]

3 class system will ruin basketball, don't do it

Please give examples of how it would "ruin basketball". Seems there are 45+ states with more than 2 classes that would prove you wrong. Granted, each state has a different mix of school enrollments. Irregardless, I don't think James Naismith is rolling in his grave due to 3+ class systems in other states.

I think there are 49 states with 3+ classes for basketball.

Delaware has two divisions that play for one state title. Kentucky has one division.

1. Travel, will have to travel farther to find games and region games.

2. No Cinderella teams anymore

3.Not every kid was meant to go to state, why not just have 8 classes then every one can go, being sarcastic.

4.It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days, you have 3 really good players with some complementary players you can hang with the bigger schools, look at Milnor in 2013, they won state with two great players, now if they would have a 3 class system then that state title doesn't mean as much in my opinion. Take Richland this year, they will compete this year and next year to go to state, you have a 3 class system they probably cruise through that class with a couple state titles, and doesn't mean as much, Two years from now they don't probably win a game for a couple years. Just the way it

The quality of basketball would improve, especially in the middle class.

[ndlionsfan]

I see the quality of basketball in the lowest division improving as well. More kids will see an opportunity to be competitive as a team and stick with it. Will take a few years to build up to that point in the smaller schools, but it will definitely improve competitiveness in both divisions.

[classB4ever]

1. Travel, will have to travel farther to find games and region games.

This is nonsense. There is absolutely no reason why scheduling would have to change. Irregardless, every school has no problem traveling now, for multiple tournaments, etc. during the season. Travel has always been a convenient excuse not to make changes.

2. No Cinderella teams anymore

What is a Cinderella team? There would still be small schools going against big schools in a 3 class system. Are we talking about Hillsboro vs. Epping? The one that happened 40 years ago? Another convenient excuse.

3.Not every kid was meant to go to state, why not just have 8 classes then every one can go, being sarcastic.

The old "everybody needs a ribbon excuse." Here's the deal, it isn't about getting to state. It's about participation and quality basketball. Competitive games. Bang for your buck. You want to talk about travel? Do you think it's a good investment for a school to have their student athletes traveling 90 miles to and from games knowing they will be beat by 40 points by halftime? Fans not going as they know they will be blown out as well?

4.It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days, you have 3 really good players with some complementary players you can hang with the bigger schools, look at Milnor in 2013, they won state with two great players, now if they would have a 3 class system then that state title doesn't mean as much in my opinion. Take Richland this year, they will compete this year and next year to go to state, you have a 3 class system they probably cruise through that class with a couple state titles, and doesn't mean as much, Two years from now they don't probably win a game for a couple years. Just the way it

If you think that making state is the only qualification for a successful year, we simply won't agree. However, I will add this, for every Milnor you bring up, I can name 15 teams that have been on the cusp of making it to state only to be knocked out in the region championship game by a "gatekeeper". Simply not deep enough over 3 nights. These small schools are usually the ones traveling the longest distances to the tourneys too. So throw in taking off school earlier, getting home later, depth off the bench, etc., and they can't overcome it.
Also, good luck finding "3 really good players with some complementary players." Good Lord, 50% of the teams are simply trying to get enough kids to go out so they can have a 5 on 5 scrimmage during practice. And doing that means bringing up 7th and 8th graders.

[hoophoophoop]

ALL TERRIBLE ARGUEMENTS,

[classB4ever]

ALL TERRIBLE ARGUEMENTS,

Fair enough. Truth be told, I think some day you will understand.

[Flip]

ALL TERRIBLE ARGUEMENTS,

Great counter argument. At least you spelled 2 of your 3 words correctly.

It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days...

This is my favorite quote. Why doesn't everyone do this?

[Sportsrube]

1. Travel, will have to travel farther to find games and region games.

This is nonsense. There is absolutely no reason why scheduling would have to change. Irregardless, every school has no problem traveling now, for multiple tournaments, etc. during the season. Travel has always been a convenient excuse not to make changes.

2. No Cinderella teams anymore

What is a Cinderella team? There would still be small schools going against big schools in a 3 class system. Are we talking about Hillsboro vs. Epping? The one that happened 40 years ago? Another convenient excuse.

3.Not every kid was meant to go to state, why not just have 8 classes then every one can go, being sarcastic.

The old "everybody needs a ribbon excuse." Here's the deal, it isn't about getting to state. It's about participation and quality basketball. Competitive games. Bang for your buck. You want to talk about travel? Do you think it's a good investment for a school to have their student athletes traveling 90 miles to and from games knowing they will be beat by 40 points by halftime? Fans not going as they know they will be blown out as well?

4.It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days, you have 3 really good players with some complementary players you can hang with the bigger schools, look at Milnor in 2013, they won state with two great players, now if they would have a 3 class system then that state title doesn't mean as much in my opinion. Take Richland this year, they will compete this year and next year to go to state, you have a 3 class system they probably cruise through that class with a couple state titles, and doesn't mean as much, Two years from now they don't probably win a game for a couple years. Just the way it

If you think that making state is the only qualification for a successful year, we simply won't agree. However, I will add this, for every Milnor you bring up, I can name 15 teams that have been on the cusp of making it to state only to be knocked out in the region championship game by a "gatekeeper". Simply not deep enough over 3 nights. These small schools are usually the ones traveling the longest distances to the tourneys too. So throw in taking off school earlier, getting home later, depth off the bench, etc., and they can't overcome it.
Also, good luck finding "3 really good players with some complementary players." Good Lord, 50% of the teams are simply trying to get enough kids to go out so they can have a 5 on 5 scrimmage during practice. And doing that means bringing up 7th and 8th graders.

All of these are great counterpoints and are truthful. I think if you polled all the Class B schools, the majority of AD's will say there are problems with the current system, the disagreements come in how to fix those problems. Travel is not an issue, we have teams for multiple sports traveling all across the state and into other states now for various reasons. To me the biggest issue is competitive balance and that will not be solved by continuing to do things the way we do them now. Getting to State is not the major issue, having 50% or more of your games being decided by 20+ points is the issue.

[classB4ever]

It doesn't take much to put a good team together now a days...

This is my favorite quote. Why doesn't everyone do this?

Think of the possibilities if we would have known this years ago.

To me the biggest issue is competitive balance and that will not be solved by continuing to do things the way we do them now. Getting to State is not the major issue, having 50% or more of your games being decided by 20+ points is the issue.

More than anything, this is it. It isn't helping anybody. Don't forget, the talented players are being penalized as well. They are missing out on a lot of playing minutes due to the blowouts. Show me 1 quality bb player who enjoys blowing out a team only to sit half a game and lose precious playing time.

[woodchuck10]

ClassB4ever, you used “irregardless” in two different posts. Please tell me you’re doing that ironically and not as a real word.

[classB4ever]

ClassB4ever, you used “irregardless” in two different posts. Please tell me you’re doing that ironically and not as a real word.

I want to thank you for the correction. Didn't realize it had been changed to a clunker due to double negative.
Please feel free to grammar check, spell check or even write me a check any time.

[Sniper]

One thing to think about when considering travel as a reason not to have a third class: Teams in district 10 are currently traveling farther to avoid having to play Shiloh in the regular season. None of the teams in district 10 play Shiloh as a regular season game even though most of the schools are located near Bismarck. I think it is pretty clear that schools would rather travel a little bit longer in order to be competitive.