3 class system

The Buzz on Class B.
Forum rules
Please do not post just to complain about players, coaches, teams, officials, fans, or anyone else. Lets all try to demonstrate the spirit of good sportsmanship. Posts may be edited or deleted that do not comply.

Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:16 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
If you go 8 for 8 that will be impressive!


Ha. Won't happen. But from past history, will venture 75% correct.
classB4ever
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:31 am

classB4ever wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
If you go 8 for 8 that will be impressive!


Ha. Won't happen. But from past history, will venture 75% correct.


Looks like at worst you'll go 75%, but more than likely 7 out of 8
"There is only one thing in which a person can start at the top - digging a hole"
User avatar
ndlionsfan
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3692
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:36 am
Location: Central ND

Re: 3 class system

Postby justplayalready » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:44 pm

So Can we argue that our current system is near perfect? As a simple system of prediction who will be in the tournament is accurate? I would also assume that as this would play out through the final 8, that it would be likely the best tournament?

If the participants are that predictable, aren't the likely economic impacts predictable too, which would have indications of profitability? etc, etc. Again indicating this is the best system as it's the most predictable, and likely less ups and downs.
User avatar
justplayalready
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:05 am

Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:47 pm

I don't have a dog in the fight. Got tired of the 10 page debates with people throwing "facts" out there but couldn't back up. In this thread have tried to address every excuse against a 3 class system. A system was proposed to diminish every argument. The very last excuse thrown out was "if you do it for boys bb you have to do it for girls bb and vb." Have asked multiple times to explain why, fiscal or logistical? No answer. Now, the debate is on again on boys thread. And the very people who have been in discussions here are claiming "heimer " doesn't let facts get in the way of his statements. Calling him out. Well, I'm calling Bisonguy06 out. Let's talk facts while you throw out your "hate" message on myth 3 thread.
classB4ever
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:32 am

I just did analysis of region tournaments like I did with the girls tournaments and in the boys tournaments results even favored larger enrollment schools and private schools than the girls this year. I did it off the plan that was shown on this thread earlier on page 4 of this thread. Starting with 8 regions and final 8 teams in each of the regions. We had 34 B teams and 26 A teams out the starting 64 teams. After the opening round we had 12 B teams and 20 A teams. I think this pretty amazing when you think under the plan there were only 32 A teams starting the regionals only 4 of these A teams didn't make the regionals. Then by time you get to the semifinals night we still have 20 of these teams playing yet or 62.5% of the A teams still playing while the class B teams were down to 16.7% left playing. Now we get to championship night we had 3 B teams left playing of the 3 B teams left playing 2 were private schools. Now of the teams going to the state the field is made up 6 A teams and 2 B teams one of the two B teams is a private school. Like I have been saying here size of the school is being proven here when you go through what happening in the region tournaments. If your a public school under 130 kids here in the state you have less than 10% chance to reach the state tournament and same for a Region championship game. Only team this year to do this is St. John once in lifetime team for community first time ever to State Class B Tournament and 69 years since they were when they were Class C . Even with that they were just good enough by winning by 2 points and blocking last minute shot to either tie or win the game.
I am not making up this on analysis of team make up at region tournaments or who are getting to state. I saw this trend at least 8 years ago and I even think it has gotten worse every year. So many don't want to look at the facts and what's happening. I think this would have been worse but several of the regions only have few A teams in their regions so the B teams have better chance of advancing but even with that majority of the times its these A teams still advancing from these regions or the Private schools. The time has come to address this problem.
B-oldtimer
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:14 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:37 am

classB4ever wrote:I don't have a dog in the fight. Got tired of the 10 page debates with people throwing "facts" out there but couldn't back up. In this thread have tried to address every excuse against a 3 class system. A system was proposed to diminish every argument. The very last excuse thrown out was "if you do it for boys bb you have to do it for girls bb and vb." Have asked multiple times to explain why, fiscal or logistical? No answer. Now, the debate is on again on boys thread. And the very people who have been in discussions here are claiming "heimer " doesn't let facts get in the way of his statements. Calling him out. Well, I'm calling Bisonguy06 out. Let's talk facts while you throw out your "hate" message on myth 3 thread.


ClassB4ever, you’re among the voices here that I respect the most. We’ve gone back and forth in a way that is civil, and you acknowledge good points made by others and I’ve tried to do the same.

Heimer does none of the above. I’ve resorted to his tactics on that thread. I’m not proud of it. His behavior is self-destructive (examples this week would be his school shooting analogy on preps and his profane attack of Fargo media on twitter). He slings mud at the wall to see what will stick, and he’ll give you a reason to root against not just adults, but high school kids who happen to wear the wrong school colors. As for me, I took the bait and played in the mud and I shouldn’t have.

When I don’t have a dog in the fight, I don’t become a temporary rabid fan of strangers wearing the right colors to beat the strangers wearing the wrong colors. I think ND has enough of those. Heimer would want more. I’d much rather just enjoy a good discussion and a good game.

I’ve already put forth my best alternative to two classes, but a civil answer to your question is that it would be perfectly fine for the three class movement to go forward in BBB but not GBB or VB.
Bisonguy06
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:48 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:31 am

Bisonguy06, regarding the above, as they say on the game show, Family Feud, "Good Answer".
classB4ever
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby BISONFAN18 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:13 am

Schools have spoken and region reps have voted. Bring on the 3rd class. Boys and girls basketball.
BISONFAN18
NDPreps Reserve
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:32 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby Mandan » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:24 pm

justplayalready wrote:
Flip wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:Schwab basically answered the question, but I believe the NDHSAA is afraid that the Class B Tourny would not bring in the TV revenue that it does now if there was a 3 class system. The tournament scheduling could be worked out, but I don't know if they could sell the TV rights to 2 extra tournaments (1 girls, 1 boys) and if they don't televise all state BB tournaments and only televise 1 or 2 they would open themselves up to lawsuits, etc...I also believe they are afraid of being sued if all schools without defined boundaries have to play in the middle or top division. (This is the "rule" in most other states, not sure how they survived without being sued.) Right now the Class B Boys BB Tournament is a large money maker for the NDHSAA and they don't want to do anything to jeopardize their cash cow.

Is anyone suing the NDHSAA for not televising the quarterfinals of the Class A girls tournament? They're not on TV the boys are.


Were the A games on WDAZ weather channel???Were they on regular ABC??? I know I would have rather watched R3 boys on BEK than the regular ABC programming(which I didn't watch)..

I guess well see how the cash cow does as it's really likely that we'll see Minot, Fargo, Bismarck and Dickinson all in it...More population should equal more $$$ right?


The boys quarterfinals on Thursday were on the "Xtra" channel. The Friday and Saturday games were on the main ABC channel.
Mandan
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:07 am
Location: Mandan, ND

Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:53 am

2017-18 season is in the book. Fun state tournaments. Going to post on this stream as don't want to muddy the water on boy's thread. Will address 1 comment from there stating something to the effect "8 evenly matched teams which proves talent across the state is even." What the state tournament proved was the the 8 teams in the tournament were evenly matched. It did not prove how the talent is even across the state.

Will end it with this:

classB4ever wrote:
I am going to predict the state field for the next 10 years. Let me ask if you would bet AGAINST the predictions being >75% correct.

Region 1 - Oak Grove
Region 2 - Grafton or H-CV (Thompson and/or Cavalier will win this region at least once in next 10 years)
Region 3 - a small school
Region 4 - Four Winds-Minn.
Region 5 - Shiloh
Region 6 - Bishop Ryan
Region 7 - Dickinson Trinity or Beulah
Region 8 - a small school

Please understand, all these schools have great programs. Good coaching staffs and athletes. No disputing that. One other thing would like to mention, these schools have been bringing great student/fan sections to the state tournament.
classB4ever
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby GJF85 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:23 pm

Honestly, this may sound ridiculous, but just throwing this thought out there. Would determining class placement in a three-class system covering bbb, gbb, and vb, be somewhat complex given some schools may be on their own for bbb for example, however coop with one other school in gbb, and two other schools in vb? Just a thought. However, it wouldn't be as complex considering the majority of coops are among smaller schools. But just something to maybe discuss here. Any thoughts?
Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.” Joshua 1:9

GJF85
User avatar
GJF85
NDPreps Reserve
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:07 am
Location: Fargo, North Dakota

Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:21 pm

GJF85 wrote:Honestly, this may sound ridiculous, but just throwing this thought out there. Would determining class placement in a three-class system covering bbb, gbb, and vb, be somewhat complex given some schools may be on their own for bbb for example, however coop with one other school in gbb, and two other schools in vb? Just a thought. However, it wouldn't be as complex considering the majority of coops are among smaller schools. But just something to maybe discuss here. Any thoughts?

any schools come to mind?
Flip
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3766
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am

Re: 3 class system

Postby GJF85 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:01 pm

Lewis & Clark-Berthold-BBB and GBB
Lewis & Clark-North Shore-BBB and GBB
Berthold and North Shore coop for volleyball

Garrison-BBB and GBB
Max-BBB and GBB
Garrison and Max coop for volleyball

Solen-BBB and GBB
Standing Rock-BBB and GBB
Solen and Standing Rock coop for volleyball

Alexander-BBB
Williston Trinity Christian-BBB
Alexander and Williston Trinity Christian coop for GBB

Couldn't think of any schools in the scenario I had thought of in my initial post, but here's three for starters.
Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.” Joshua 1:9

GJF85
User avatar
GJF85
NDPreps Reserve
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:07 am
Location: Fargo, North Dakota

Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:27 pm

GJF85 wrote:Honestly, this may sound ridiculous, but just throwing this thought out there. Would determining class placement in a three-class system covering bbb, gbb, and vb, be somewhat complex given some schools may be on their own for bbb for example, however coop with one other school in gbb, and two other schools in vb? Just a thought. However, it wouldn't be as complex considering the majority of coops are among smaller schools. But just something to maybe discuss here. Any thoughts?


IMHO, it would only make it complex if you feel that all 3 sports need to be mandated the same. Other than "because they say so", no answer has ever been given as to why a change to boy's basketball needs to be incorporated into gbb and gvb.
classB4ever
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:43 pm

classB4ever wrote:
GJF85 wrote:Honestly, this may sound ridiculous, but just throwing this thought out there. Would determining class placement in a three-class system covering bbb, gbb, and vb, be somewhat complex given some schools may be on their own for bbb for example, however coop with one other school in gbb, and two other schools in vb? Just a thought. However, it wouldn't be as complex considering the majority of coops are among smaller schools. But just something to maybe discuss here. Any thoughts?


IMHO, it would only make it complex if you feel that all 3 sports need to be mandated the same. Other than "because they say so", no answer has ever been given as to why a change to boy's basketball needs to be incorporated into gbb and gvb.


Sounds like if the NDHSAA goes to a 3-class system...all 3 sports need to be included in the plan.
Email ND HS Scores to: ndhsscores at yahoo
Follow ND HS Scores (NDScores) on Twitter
Find Scores/Schedules/Standings: http://www.northdakota-scores.net
THANKS!
User avatar
Run4Fun2009
NDPreps The King
 
Posts: 14394
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:06 pm
Location: Fargo

Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:39 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
GJF85 wrote:Honestly, this may sound ridiculous, but just throwing this thought out there. Would determining class placement in a three-class system covering bbb, gbb, and vb, be somewhat complex given some schools may be on their own for bbb for example, however coop with one other school in gbb, and two other schools in vb? Just a thought. However, it wouldn't be as complex considering the majority of coops are among smaller schools. But just something to maybe discuss here. Any thoughts?


IMHO, it would only make it complex if you feel that all 3 sports need to be mandated the same. Other than "because they say so", no answer has ever been given as to why a change to boy's basketball needs to be incorporated into gbb and gvb.


Sounds like if the NDHSAA goes to a 3-class system...all 3 sports need to be included in the plan.


Understood, but why? That's been the question all along. Logistics? Fiscal? Other than NDHSAA says it's so, what is the reasoning?
classB4ever
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:43 pm

classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
GJF85 wrote:Honestly, this may sound ridiculous, but just throwing this thought out there. Would determining class placement in a three-class system covering bbb, gbb, and vb, be somewhat complex given some schools may be on their own for bbb for example, however coop with one other school in gbb, and two other schools in vb? Just a thought. However, it wouldn't be as complex considering the majority of coops are among smaller schools. But just something to maybe discuss here. Any thoughts?


IMHO, it would only make it complex if you feel that all 3 sports need to be mandated the same. Other than "because they say so", no answer has ever been given as to why a change to boy's basketball needs to be incorporated into gbb and gvb.


Sounds like if the NDHSAA goes to a 3-class system...all 3 sports need to be included in the plan.


Understood, but why? That's been the question all along. Logistics? Fiscal? Other than NDHSAA says it's so, what is the reasoning?


That is the reason, NDHSAA says so
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3609
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:48 pm

The Schwab wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
GJF85 wrote:Honestly, this may sound ridiculous, but just throwing this thought out there. Would determining class placement in a three-class system covering bbb, gbb, and vb, be somewhat complex given some schools may be on their own for bbb for example, however coop with one other school in gbb, and two other schools in vb? Just a thought. However, it wouldn't be as complex considering the majority of coops are among smaller schools. But just something to maybe discuss here. Any thoughts?


IMHO, it would only make it complex if you feel that all 3 sports need to be mandated the same. Other than "because they say so", no answer has ever been given as to why a change to boy's basketball needs to be incorporated into gbb and gvb.


Sounds like if the NDHSAA goes to a 3-class system...all 3 sports need to be included in the plan.


Understood, but why? That's been the question all along. Logistics? Fiscal? Other than NDHSAA says it's so, what is the reasoning?


That is the reason, NDHSAA says so


Thank you, my computer screen needed cleaning anyway. :lol: :lol: :lol:
classB4ever
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:18 pm

classB4ever wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
GJF85 wrote:Honestly, this may sound ridiculous, but just throwing this thought out there. Would determining class placement in a three-class system covering bbb, gbb, and vb, be somewhat complex given some schools may be on their own for bbb for example, however coop with one other school in gbb, and two other schools in vb? Just a thought. However, it wouldn't be as complex considering the majority of coops are among smaller schools. But just something to maybe discuss here. Any thoughts?


IMHO, it would only make it complex if you feel that all 3 sports need to be mandated the same. Other than "because they say so", no answer has ever been given as to why a change to boy's basketball needs to be incorporated into gbb and gvb.


Sounds like if the NDHSAA goes to a 3-class system...all 3 sports need to be included in the plan.


Understood, but why? That's been the question all along. Logistics? Fiscal? Other than NDHSAA says it's so, what is the reasoning?


That is the reason, NDHSAA says so


Thank you, my computer screen needed cleaning anyway. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I know it's been discussed before, but a few years ago the 3 class system passed the district chairs meeting 14-2, the NDHSAA didn't even discuss it because it didn't include volleyball (might have had GBB, but I can't remember)
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3609
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: 3 class system

Postby GJF85 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:49 pm

My apologies, I didn't use the right choice of words. Maybe if I put it into a scenario, it will make more sense.

So let's say you have School 1, School 2, and School 3. These three schools provide these athletic opportunities:
School 1:
BBB
GBB (co-op with School 2)
VB (co-op with School 2 & 3)

Now it isn't the greatest scenario, but say if for girl's basketball the enrollment between Schools 1 and 2 was above the cutoff between Class A and Class B. So would BBB be in Class B, and Girls BBB be in Class A?
Or how would that work?

Hope that clears up what I was trying to get at.
Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.” Joshua 1:9

GJF85
User avatar
GJF85
NDPreps Reserve
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:07 am
Location: Fargo, North Dakota

Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:10 pm

GJF85 wrote:My apologies, I didn't use the right choice of words. Maybe if I put it into a scenario, it will make more sense.

So let's say you have School 1, School 2, and School 3. These three schools provide these athletic opportunities:
School 1:
BBB
GBB (co-op with School 2)
VB (co-op with School 2 & 3)

Now it isn't the greatest scenario, but say if for girl's basketball the enrollment between Schools 1 and 2 was above the cutoff between Class A and Class B. So would BBB be in Class B, and Girls BBB be in Class A?
Or how would that work?

Hope that clears up what I was trying to get at.

I'm not sure why that would be confusing. GBB and VB would be Class A and BBB would be Class B.
Flip
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 3766
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am

Re: 3 class system

Postby GJF85 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:36 am

Oh ok. I was overthinking it then. Thanks I appreciate it
Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.” Joshua 1:9

GJF85
User avatar
GJF85
NDPreps Reserve
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:07 am
Location: Fargo, North Dakota

Re: 3 class system

Postby sportsnut5 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:26 pm

I have heard a rumor that Watford City may not have enough players in girls' basketball to have a JV team. And they are going to Class A. I bet Century cannot wait to make that trip out to Watford City so their program can get better. Games like that one will assist Watford in building their program as well. Regular state tourney participants in Class B, sacrificial lamb in Class A. 2 class system at its finest.
sportsnut5
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:03 pm

Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:32 pm

sportsnut5 wrote:I have heard a rumor that Watford City may not have enough players in girls' basketball to have a JV team. And they are going to Class A. I bet Century cannot wait to make that trip out to Watford City so their program can get better. Games like that one will assist Watford in building their program as well. Regular state tourney participants in Class B, sacrificial lamb in Class A. 2 class system at its finest.


Most of the Class A schools just shot down Wahpeton’s 3 class proposal...so the Class A schools are choosing this situation right now. It was 42% no - statewide; 49% without Class A included
Email ND HS Scores to: ndhsscores at yahoo
Follow ND HS Scores (NDScores) on Twitter
Find Scores/Schedules/Standings: http://www.northdakota-scores.net
THANKS!
User avatar
Run4Fun2009
NDPreps The King
 
Posts: 14394
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:06 pm
Location: Fargo

Re: 3 class system

Postby sportsnut5 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:59 pm

Every plan has flaws and many schools know a different system is needed, but vote "no" either because a specific plan affects them adversely or does not affect them at all so they stay with the status quo. I truly think a different class system would be voted in if it was just a vote on the idea of and the process of implementing it. I believe, maybe I am totally wrong, but if a system of implementation was voted on like the football plan, with a committee made up of members from around the state to thoroughly and diligently come up with a class system that made sense, more schools would be willing to give it a try.

I'm not sure what is the best system for the state, but I know schools like Watford City dominating smaller class B schools, and schools like Century dominating Watford City is not the best solution to our competitive balance or numbers of participation issues going on in this state. There are so many programs now that cannot support 2 teams in Class B. Makes for some pretty ugly basketball at times that has put student-athletes in poor situations. We have a band-aid with the mercy rule. Change is difficult, but change is necessary.
sportsnut5
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:03 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Basketball - Class B

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests