Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby toughD » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:57 pm

packers21 wrote:
toughD wrote:The thing about the semi-circle is that it's not that big. I coach 5th & 6th grade boys, and we practice at the local university where they have the circles on the floor. When these young boys are running layup drills, most often they take off from outside this circle when they go up for a layup. If you set up for a charge inside the circle, you are standing DIRECTLY under the hoop, and you've already given the offensive player a clear path to the basket. This is poor defense and you should not be rewarded for giving up an uncontested bucket then letting the offensive player run into you as they're coming down from the shot. I'm definitely infavor of implementing the semi-circles for HS ball.


What you posted sounds more like a argument for the circle not against it. I dont really understand your argument. Plus it would never be used in the younger grades anyways.


I am arguing for it. Notice the bolded statement.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Rivershark » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:27 pm

I don't know if peoples opinions have changed at all over the last couple seasons. My biggest complaint is that I can't say I completely understand the rule nor do many of the refs. There is too much inconsistency.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Flying Wallenda » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:40 pm

Rivershark wrote:I don't know if peoples opinions have changed at all over the last couple seasons. My biggest complaint is that I can't say I completely understand the rule nor do many of the refs. There is too much inconsistency.

https://ndhsaa.com/files/2016_17_Sports ... a_Rule.pdf
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby The Schwab » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:50 pm

This has been around for a couple of years now, here are my thoughts:

1. The no-charge circle is designed for games played above the rim (college and pro).
2. You can still be in great help defensive position and get called for the block because you are not fully clear of the circle.
3. I have had refs tell me that ANY contact with a help defender in the circle must be a block (wrong)
4. I have seen blocks called because they were in the circle when they were the primary defender.
5. Too many times, refs are guessing. I have seen conferences last over a minute, which tells me that no one really knew for sure.
6. If we have to have this thing (which I wish we'd get rid of) make it smaller.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Rivershark » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:18 pm

Flying Wallenda wrote:
Rivershark wrote:I don't know if peoples opinions have changed at all over the last couple seasons. My biggest complaint is that I can't say I completely understand the rule nor do many of the refs. There is too much inconsistency.

https://ndhsaa.com/files/2016_17_Sports ... a_Rule.pdf


Not sure I understand the Exceptions Section. Seems like that could be subjective. Seems like a lot for a ref to think about in a few split seconds.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Sportsrube » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:54 am

The Schwab wrote:This has been around for a couple of years now, here are my thoughts:

1. The no-charge circle is designed for games played above the rim (college and pro).
2. You can still be in great help defensive position and get called for the block because you are not fully clear of the circle.
3. I have had refs tell me that ANY contact with a help defender in the circle must be a block (wrong)
4. I have seen blocks called because they were in the circle when they were the primary defender.
5. Too many times, refs are guessing. I have seen conferences last over a minute, which tells me that no one really knew for sure.
6. If we have to have this thing (which I wish we'd get rid of) make it smaller.


Let's be honest, most officials are going to "interpret" the rule how ever they want to. That is why the officiating is always so inconsistent from one group to another - refs "interpret" rules how they want to. Over all the officials do a very good job, but every once in a while they have an off night.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby The Schwab » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:52 am

Sportsrube wrote:
The Schwab wrote:This has been around for a couple of years now, here are my thoughts:

1. The no-charge circle is designed for games played above the rim (college and pro).
2. You can still be in great help defensive position and get called for the block because you are not fully clear of the circle.
3. I have had refs tell me that ANY contact with a help defender in the circle must be a block (wrong)
4. I have seen blocks called because they were in the circle when they were the primary defender.
5. Too many times, refs are guessing. I have seen conferences last over a minute, which tells me that no one really knew for sure.
6. If we have to have this thing (which I wish we'd get rid of) make it smaller.


Let's be honest, most officials are going to "interpret" the rule how ever they want to. That is why the officiating is always so inconsistent from one group to another - refs "interpret" rules how they want to. Over all the officials do a very good job, but every once in a while they have an off night.


My point of my post was to get rid of the circle, because if refs are watching the action that they should be watching (and most of them do) then they won't be staring at where the defender was, or trying to determine who the help defender was. Get rid of the circle and it will only help the refs.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Sportsrube » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:41 pm

The Schwab wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:
The Schwab wrote:This has been around for a couple of years now, here are my thoughts:

1. The no-charge circle is designed for games played above the rim (college and pro).
2. You can still be in great help defensive position and get called for the block because you are not fully clear of the circle.
3. I have had refs tell me that ANY contact with a help defender in the circle must be a block (wrong)
4. I have seen blocks called because they were in the circle when they were the primary defender.
5. Too many times, refs are guessing. I have seen conferences last over a minute, which tells me that no one really knew for sure.
6. If we have to have this thing (which I wish we'd get rid of) make it smaller.


Let's be honest, most officials are going to "interpret" the rule how ever they want to. That is why the officiating is always so inconsistent from one group to another - refs "interpret" rules how they want to. Over all the officials do a very good job, but every once in a while they have an off night.


My point of my post was to get rid of the circle, because if refs are watching the action that they should be watching (and most of them do) then they won't be staring at where the defender was, or trying to determine who the help defender was. Get rid of the circle and it will only help the refs.


I agree, get rid of the circle. (I think most officials would agree also.)
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby ReadyToPlay » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:30 pm

Have seen this evolve over the last two seasons and what I have observed is this about the circle: Last year the refs just called the defensive foul no matter what if it was close to the circle at all--they were off the hook because this is what they were told to do. This past year I have noticed not such an automatic call in which they must have gotten a little cafe talking to throughout the summer and now call it a "player control foul". This is great and it signals to me that they do not need a circle to form an opinion. I totally agree to get rid of the circle so the officials can take back their dignity...
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby KG4MVP » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:28 pm

I like the circle, makes it easier. Trying to take a charge and your foot is in the circle, block. If inside the circle jump straight up with hands up. No call.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:44 am

I noticed one call where this came into play in the championship. Girl took a charge, but was inside the circle and it was correctly called a blocking foul.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:25 am

KG4MVP wrote:I like the circle, makes it easier. Trying to take a charge and your foot is in the circle, block. If inside the circle jump straight up with hands up. No call.


May I ask what difference it would make if they jumped with hands up? If inside the arc and secondary defender, it shouldn't matter if they are stationary or jump in the air. Has the rule changed?
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby KG4MVP » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:21 pm

classB4ever wrote:
KG4MVP wrote:I like the circle, makes it easier. Trying to take a charge and your foot is in the circle, block. If inside the circle jump straight up with hands up. No call.


May I ask what difference it would make if they jumped with hands up? If inside the arc and secondary defender, it shouldn't matter if they are stationary or jump in the air. Has the rule changed?

If you stand inside the arc like a tree its a block. If your inside and jump straight up to challenge the shot no call. Without the arc one could just stand there and or take a charge. Makes the defender challenge the shot if inside the circle.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby OldSchoolBaller » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:23 pm

classB4ever wrote:
KG4MVP wrote:I like the circle, makes it easier. Trying to take a charge and your foot is in the circle, block. If inside the circle jump straight up with hands up. No call.


May I ask what difference it would make if they jumped with hands up? If inside the arc and secondary defender, it shouldn't matter if they are stationary or jump in the air. Has the rule changed?

In my mind that is the difference between contesting the shot and contesting the drive. It is also a way to prevent injury. If a defender jumps there is less likely to be a collision under the basket where people are jumping in the air while a defender is on the ground after trying to take a charge.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:36 pm

OldSchoolBaller wrote:In my mind that is the difference between contesting the shot and contesting the drive. It is also a way to prevent injury. If a defender jumps there is less likely to be a collision under the basket where people are jumping in the air while a defender is on the ground after trying to take a charge.


KG4MVP wrote:
If you stand inside the arc like a tree its a block. If your inside and jump straight up to challenge the shot no call. Without the arc one could just stand there and or take a charge. Makes the defender challenge the shot if inside the circle.


With all due respect to both of you, I think this is where the problem lies. It seems that both of you have a different interpretation for the reason of the arc, but is it the rule? Using verticality is fine, but doesn't apply here. If inside the arc, whether jumping to contest or not, the offensive player gets the benefit of the arc if the defensive player is a secondary defender. Has the rule changed to reflect bold above? Or is this just your interpretation? Haven't read rule book for a few years so would appreciate your input.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby BISONFAN18 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:59 pm

KG4MVP wrote:I like the circle, makes it easier. Trying to take a charge and your foot is in the circle, block. If inside the circle jump straight up with hands up. No call.


If the secondary defender gains legal guarding position outside of the circle and moves into or on the circle while maintaining legal guarding position then it is possible to draw a player control foul.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:51 pm

KG4MVP wrote:I like the circle, makes it easier. Trying to take a charge and your foot is in the circle, block. If inside the circle jump straight up with hands up. No call.


I don't agree that the circle makes things easier, I feel that it leads to a lot of "grey areas". I think getting rid of the no-charge circle would make things easier on officials as well. I don't believe other states use this for high school games, but I could be wrong. I know that Montana and South Dakota for sure don't use it.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby BISONFAN18 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:13 pm

The Schwab wrote:
KG4MVP wrote:I like the circle, makes it easier. Trying to take a charge and your foot is in the circle, block. If inside the circle jump straight up with hands up. No call.


I don't agree that the circle makes things easier, I feel that it leads to a lot of "grey areas". I think getting rid of the no-charge circle would make things easier on officials as well. I don't believe other states use this for high school games, but I could be wrong. I know that Montana and South Dakota for sure don't use it.


I like the circle. It prevents coaches from arguing against a charge because the defense was under the basket. Good officials have no trouble with the circle. Bad officials still think a player has to be "set" to draw a charge.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby BBfan4life » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:02 pm

I absolutely think the circle is joke. Our officials aren't full time guys or gals I guess. They have real jobs and distractions. They do this for extra cash, not that they don't take it seriously, well, some I guess but they haven't officiated enough or have the trained focus to worry about a circle they can't see when they are looking for contact at eye sight level. Its completely inconsistent and most are just guessing when they call either foul. It's not rocket science to decide whether its a offensive or defensive foul depending on the play. The circle was made to bail bad or insecure officials out of bad calls. Its frustrating because when you see instant reply its almost always the wrong call.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:11 pm

IMO, the block/charge arc was implemented for different reasons, depending on which level of basketball you are looking at. For ND class B basketball, I think it was to increase offense.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby wildcatfan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:44 am

I like the arc circle, saw way too many times that the secondary defender takes a charge under the hoop or behind the backboard as the offensive player is coming down. Makes it an easy call with the arc there.

What I don't care for is referees that call an offensive foul IF the defender falls down!! A lot of good actors out there. Some defenders are falling way before any contact was even made, but since he fell too many officials think it has to be an offensive foul.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:25 am

wildcatfan wrote:I like the arc circle, saw way too many times that the secondary defender takes a charge under the hoop or behind the backboard as the offensive player is coming down. Makes it an easy call with the arc there.

What I don't care for is referees that call an offensive foul IF the defender falls down!! A lot of good actors out there. Some defenders are falling way before any contact was even made, but since he fell too many officials think it has to be an offensive foul.


Maybe we need to institute a fine for flopping like the NBA does! I agree with you about flopping, we played a team this season who had a kid who flopped constantly, best part of the game was when his own head coach yelled "would you stop falling down!" at him during the game! (He flopped 4 times against us and never got a call.)
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