3 class system

[classB4ever]

Didn't want to side track the current thread so will put this here.

One thing I believe we can all agree on: Teams located in larger cities have access to more "things". Whether those things are more competition year round, better facilities or access to more student athletes, they are all an advantage. Many of these teams have excellent programs, so having access to more "things" does set them apart. I personally believe Minot Our Redeemers and Williston Trinity Christian belong in class b and Schwab's plan has them there. His plan is the best plan I've seen presented and hope some people will recognize it.

[Flip]

Didn't want to side track the current thread so will put this here.

One thing I believe we can all agree on: Teams located in larger cities have access to more "things". Whether those things are more competition year round, better facilities or access to more student athletes, they are all an advantage. Many of these teams have excellent programs, so having access to more "things" does set them apart. I personally believe Minot Our Redeemers and Williston Trinity Christian belong in class b and Schwab's plan has them there. His plan is the best plan I've seen presented and hope some people will recognize it.

I talked to Thomas Dwyer, the HC at Watford City, a few years back at a team camp. He is Shiloh grad. He told me you could always find a gym or a game if you wanted to in Bismarck. Also, said if his kids want to get into the gym he basically is the one that has to open the gym.

I also disagree with posters that say all private schools need to at least be in the middle class.

[classB4ever]

Yearly Predictions (Big School 170+ 9-12):
Region 1: Big School/Private 67%
Region 2: Big School 59%
Region 3: A Small School 84%
Region 4: FWM vs. field > 50%
Region 5: Shiloh Christian vs. field > 54%
Region 6: Big School/Private 63%
Region 7: Beulah/Dickinson Trinity 84%
Region 8: A Small School 67%

2021 Region Predictions:
Region 1: Oak Grove/Enderlin vs. Kindred. If healthy, think Kindred goes to state.
Region 2: HCV vs. Grafton. HCV seems to be getting better as season progresses. HCV
Region 3: Ellendale vs. EKM Toss up. Will pick EKM
Region 4: FWM vs. Langdon. FWM, size, depth and experience.
Region 5: Shiloh Christian vs. Flasher SC experience and depth.
Region 6: Rugby vs. Minot Bishop Ryan Toss up. Think Rugby will regroup.
Region 7: Beulah vs. Dickinson Trinity Toss up. Going with gym. Love to see Bowman county sneak in.
Region 8: White Shield vs. Powers Lake Love to see Jesse make it but experience wins out.

Average Yearly State Results:
1st Place - Big/Private 67%
2nd Place - Big/Private 59%
3rd Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50
4th Place - Small 58%
5th Place - Big/Private 59%
6th Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50
7th Place - Small 63%
8th Place - Small 58%

Average finish for last 7 years by Region:

Region 4 2.14
Region 6 3.29
Region 1 3.86
Region 2 4.71
Region 3 4.71
Region 7 4.71
Region 5 5.57
Region 8 6.86


Not knowing seeding or who will be there, will still give it a shot.
2021 State Tourney Prediction:
1st Place - Four Winds-Minnewaukan (R4)
2nd Place - Kindred (R1)
3rd Place - Dickinson Trinity (R7)
4th Place - HCV (R2)
5th Place - Rugby (R6)
6th Place - Shiloh Christian (R5)
7th Place - EKM (R3) (This would be my Cinderella team to win it all and they could)
8th Place - Powers Lake (R8)

*Note - Nothing against any teams and certainly will be cheering for the underdogs. Good luck to all players and teams. Stay healthy and have fun.

Above was from last year but really doesn’t matter. It’s pretty predictable every year. R3 basically has all small schools so guaranteed 1 small school at state. Bowman County got in past the juggernauts in R7. Big school won in R8.

Region 1: Big School/Private 67% - Kindred
Region 2: Big School 59% - Grafton
Region 3: A Small School 84% - LLM
Region 4: FWM vs. field > 50% - FWM
Region 5: Shiloh Christian vs. field > 54% - Bismarck Shiloh Christian
Region 6: Big School/Private 63% - Minot Ryan
Region 7: Beulah/Dickinson Trinity 84% - Bowman County
Region 8: A Small School 67% - Stanley

Average Yearly State Results:
1st Place - Big/Private 67%
2nd Place - Big/Private 59%
3rd Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50
4th Place - Small 58%
5th Place - Big/Private 59%
6th Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50
7th Place - Small 63%
8th Place - Small 58%

2022 Predictions:
1st - Kindred
2nd - FWM
3rd - Shiloh
4th - LLM
5th - Grafton
6th - Bowman County
7th - Minot Ryan
8th - Stanley

[classB4ever]

2022 Class B State Results vs. Average yearly results:
1st Place - Big/Private 67% - FW/M (correct)
2nd Place - Big/Private 59% - Kindred (correct)
3rd Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50 - L/L/M (semi-correct)
4th Place - Small 58% - Minot Ryan (incorrect)
5th Place - Big/Private 59% - Shiloh Christian (correct)
6th Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50 - Grafton (semi-correct)
7th Place - Small 63% - Bowman County (semi-correct)
8th Place - Small 58% - Stanley (semi-correct)

2023 Class B Region Predictions:
Region 1: Big School/Private 67% - (CC, Kindred, Oak Grove) Central Cass
Region 2: Big School 59% - (Grafton, Thompson, HCV) Thompson or HCV
Region 3: A Small School 84% - LLM
Region 4: FWM vs. field > 50% - FW/M
Region 5: Shiloh Christian vs. field > 54% - Shiloh
Region 6: Big School/Private 63% (Minot Ryan, Rugby) Minot Ryan
Region 7: Beulah/Dickinson Trinity 84% - Dickinson Trinity
Region 8: A Small School 67% - Stanley

[packers21]

2022 Class B State Results vs. Average yearly results:
1st Place - Big/Private 67% - FW/M (correct)
2nd Place - Big/Private 59% - Kindred (correct)
3rd Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50 - L/L/M (semi-correct)
4th Place - Small 58% - Minot Ryan (incorrect)
5th Place - Big/Private 59% - Shiloh Christian (correct)
6th Place - Big/Private vs. Small 50-50 - Grafton (semi-correct)
7th Place - Small 63% - Bowman County (semi-correct)
8th Place - Small 58% - Stanley (semi-correct)

2023 Class B Region Predictions:
Region 1: Big School/Private 67% - (CC, Kindred, Oak Grove) Central Cass
Region 2: Big School 59% - (Grafton, Thompson, HCV) HCV
Region 3: A Small School 84% - LLM
Region 4: FWM vs. field > 50% - FW/M
Region 5: Shiloh Christian vs. field > 54% - Shiloh
Region 6: Big School/Private 63% (Minot Ryan, Rugby) Minot Ryan
Region 7: Beulah/Dickinson Trinity 84% - Dickinson Trinity
Region 8: A Small School 67% - Stanley

Bowman returns quite a bit don't they?

[classB4ever]

Bowman returns quite a bit don't they?

Hope so. There are a number of other teams that will be in the mix next year. R4 has a couple of real contenders to challenge FW/M, but tough region to get out of. 1 year away and bet predictions are pretty close.

[classB4ever]

Didn't want to muddy up the water on new thread, so will put this here.

Using the new 2022 proposal and their adjusted numbers, this is what it would look like with 29 teams in A (middle class). Believe this is more realistic and would have a better chance of passing. Also, travel shouldn't be an issue as all these teams travel a lot now plus can always schedule class b teams in the area to fill out schedule. Travel should not change or would probably be less in some instances. If we are honest, we all have an idea where the cutoff line should be and believe this would better reflect it.

This would be an amazing division with great parity. Almost all these teams play one another during the year already so really isn't a major change. Just better basketball competition night in and night out.

Teams in red would change going from proposed 37 teams to 29 teams.

District 1
Wahpeton 407
Oak Grove 404
Central Cass 328
Valley City 326
Northern Cass 291 (moved to District 2)
Kindred 282
Lisbon 207
Sargent County 193
Oakes 173 (class b)
Edgeley-Kulm-Montpelier 171 (class b)

District 2
Northern Cass 291 (for 29 teams, moved from District 1)
Grafton 277
Four Winds/Minnewaukan 276
Hillsboro/Central Valley 234
Thompson 213
Carrington 197
May-Port CG 184
Park River 178 (class b)
Midway Minto 176 (class b)
Hatton/Northwood 173 (class b)

District 3
South Prairie 246
Des Lacs-Burlington 238
Bottineau 232
Dunseith 231
Rugby 203
Nedrose 193
Bishop Ryan 184
Velva 178 (class b)
Harvey-Wells Co. 172 (class b)

District 4
Shiloh Christian 336
New Town 327
Dickinson Trinity 320
Standing Rock Community 290
Stanley 247
Heart River 237
Killdeer 228
Beulah 226
Hazen 174 (class b)

[leroybla]

Wow! Oak Grove has over 400 students? I had no idea.

[maddog1971]

I don't know where you got these numbers? How did you come up with them? Because OG does not have over 400 kids in high School???? and Kindreds number are over 70 a grade? maybe??

[ndlionsfan]

Go to the 3 class website and read through the plan. Open enrolled students count double towards the enrollment used for classification. They had an actual enrollment of 202, but since none are in district they count as 404.

I don't know where you got these numbers? How did you come up with them? Because OG does not have over 400 kids in high School???? and Kindreds number are over 70 a grade? maybe??

[Flip]

There has to be a mistake on Standing Rock's enrollment. I'm not sure if their enrollment should be 580 or 290. I think it should be 580 though and that would put them in AA.

[ndlionsfan]

There has to be a mistake on Standing Rock's enrollment. I'm not sure if their enrollment should be 580 or 290. I think it should be 580 though and that would put them in AA.

I noticed that, too. I would think it's a typo in the second column. I also noticed Standing Rock is listed twice on the list....the second time a little farther down in A

[ndlionsfan]

There has to be a mistake on Standing Rock's enrollment. I'm not sure if their enrollment should be 580 or 290. I think it should be 580 though and that would put them in AA.

I noticed that, too. I would think it's a typo in the second column. I also noticed Standing Rock is listed twice on the list....the second time a little farther down in A

[WalkingStick]

OG doesn’t even have 200 from 9-12…maybe 6-12

[WalkingStick]

Wow! Oak Grove has over 400 students? I had no idea.

OG at max has 175 kids 9-12 (still puts them in this division anyways)…which is impressive since tuition went up to around 13k

[Flip]

I think it's grades 6-9. No idea why they chose those grades.

[Sportsrube]

I think it's grades 6-9. No idea why they chose those grades.

Maybe because those students would be in HS when this plan goes into effect? If it goes into effect.

[Flip]

I think it's grades 6-9. No idea why they chose those grades.

Maybe because those students would be in HS when this plan goes into effect? If it goes into effect.

The plan is for it to start in 23-24.

[B-oldtimer]

I hope it passes long over due and i wonder why sudden shift maybe has to do with participation numbers. I saw in there facts how numbers had dropped as high as 40% over the last twenty years. They also showed by adding class in American legion it had increased participation amazing people have been telling them for years but wouldn't listen. If there is opposition its going to come from class A ranks especially lower half enrollments they will not be big school competing against all others its going to be total reversal of situation for them.

[packers21]

I hope it passes long over due and i wonder why sudden shift maybe has to do with participation numbers. I saw in there facts how numbers had dropped as high as 40% over the last twenty years. They also showed by adding class in American legion it had increased participation amazing people have been telling them for years but wouldn't listen. If there is opposition its going to come from class A ranks especially lower half enrollments they will not be big school competing against all others its going to be total reversal of situation for them.

I do not see any change helping participation numbers.

[classB4ever]

packers21, have always respected your opinion on this website, but have to ask a question. Following is your quote from the topic under boys thread:

Mark my words if this passes VC and Wahp will become powerhouses. WC opts to stay up they want to be in the highest class. DL also needs to stay in the highest class, they’ve been plenty competitive. We’ll see the same 5/6 teams in the state A tourney that will have terrible attendance.

I would rather see the old northstar make a comeback.

Why hasn't Valley City been a powerhouse when playing against current class b teams in the past? Could it be that their program has suffered from lack of participation because of getting throttled most of the time? If they become a powerhouse, it would prove to me that the system would be working. Now give 40 other schools a chance to have schedules where they don't get blown out by 50. Have a chance to win games in district and regional tourneys and a chance for a state appearance. Perhaps their participation numbers go up as well.

Will agree that Wahpeton will probably be a powerhouse. Good program with numbers. However, 4 teams make it to the state tourney from each region in the proposed middle class. Not to mention, the schools in the proposed middle class, from top to bottom, have more in common town/team wise, than the current 2 class system from top top bottom.

Everyone gets so locked in to who is making it to state instead of looking at night in/night out competition. Getting the student/athletes participating again and rebuilding some of these programs.

Wasn't going to start debating this but would like for once that people read through the entire proposal a few times to completely understand it before posting negative comments that have always been part of the past excuses. I'm not singling you out by any means. But if you read through the comments, you will understand my point.

[packers21]

packers21, have always respected your opinion on this website, but have to ask a question. Following is your quote from the topic under boys thread:

Mark my words if this passes VC and Wahp will become powerhouses. WC opts to stay up they want to be in the highest class. DL also needs to stay in the highest class, they’ve been plenty competitive. We’ll see the same 5/6 teams in the state A tourney that will have terrible attendance.

I would rather see the old northstar make a comeback.

Why hasn't Valley City been a powerhouse when playing against current class b teams in the past? Could it be that their program has suffered from lack of participation because of getting throttled most of the time? If they become a powerhouse, it would prove to me that the system would be working. Now give 40 other schools a chance to have schedules where they don't get blown out by 50. Have a chance to win games in district and regional tourneys and a chance for a state appearance. Perhaps their participation numbers go up as well.

Will agree that Wahpeton will probably be a powerhouse. Good program with numbers. However, 4 teams make it to the state tourney from each region in the proposed middle class. Not to mention, the schools in the proposed middle class, from top to bottom, have more in common town/team wise, than the current 2 class system from top top bottom.

Everyone gets so locked in to who is making it to state instead of looking at night in/night out competition. Getting the student/athletes participating again and rebuilding some of these programs.

Wasn't going to start debating this but would like for once that people read through the entire proposal a few times to completely understand it before posting negative comments that have always been part of the past excuses. I'm not singling you out by any means. But if you read through the comments, you will understand my point.

I am fine being singled out, and I love talking basketball and discussing. I have read through the proposal multiple times. The kids that are going to play sports are going to play them no matter what, there are kids these days that just do not want to put in time and effort and it wont matter to them if they play on team that wins 20 games a year. Not sure on Valley City's numbers so I am not going to guess, but what happened 10 years ago when they moved down for a year?

I am not against a change in basketball, I do not hate this plan and if it passes I will still watch as much basketball as I can. There will still be plenty of 50 point games and you will have 2 state tournaments on the same weekend and I do no think you will have 2,000 ppl attend the A tournament.

It doesn't matter how many classes you have, the same problems are going to exist. I could tell you right now with 95% accuracy in B and 99% in A who would be going to state over and over again. Is that the end goal? No, but it should be a goal.

Do not let this plan fool you into think someone is out to save the little schools, this has been thrown out bc of who is on certain boards right now and its a better plan for the bigger schools and they small school just think it will work out better for them.

If you have a complaint about scheduling competitive games, schedule different opponents. Most schools have 6-10 games a season they can play anyone they want.

[classB4ever]

All fair points.

I am fine being singled out, and I love talking basketball and discussing. I have read through the proposal multiple times. The kids that are going to play sports are going to play them no matter what, there are kids these days that just do not want to put in time and effort and it wont matter to them if they play on team that wins 20 games a year.

You may be right. Think it might take a few years and some new blood in each of these programs to turn it around. Believe it's worth a shot.

I am not against a change in basketball, I do not hate this plan and if it passes I will still watch as much basketball as I can. There will still be plenty of 50 point games and you will have 2 state tournaments on the same weekend and I do no think you will have 2,000 ppl attend the A tournament.

50 point losses will occur but will bet it's reduced by 75%. As for the state tournaments, I agree if they keep them on the same weekend. That has to change. It automatically sets the proposal up for failure. It's bad for the fans, teams and in my opinion an economic disaster. Really makes no sense to me. However, if they figure out a way to get them on separate weekends, I will be attending both. Quit going to state tourneys about 5 years ago due to same old, same old. However, believe the middle class might turn in to the best division to watch for old school guys.

It doesn't matter how many classes you have, the same problems are going to exist. I could tell you right now with 95% accuracy in B and 99% in A who would be going to state over and over again. Is that the end goal? No, but it should be a goal.

Agree it's a goal. I'm a betting man, I will bet you cannot fulfill the predictions stated above the first year if it's passed. To make another bet, I will predict next year's class b tourney, but will be at >= 87.5%.

Do not let this plan fool you into think someone is out to save the little schools, this has been thrown out bc of who is on certain boards right now and its a better plan for the bigger schools and they small school just think it will work out better for them.

I hope you're wrong, but you may be right. Almost sounds like an old song.

If you have a complaint about scheduling competitive games, schedule different opponents. Most schools have 6-10 games a season they can play anyone they want.

Still have to play X many games in your district and region. Those turn out to be the most important games and generally against your biggest rivals. Getting smoked by the top teams each year kind of sets the tone for the district and region tourneys. Kind of deflating if you know what I mean.

[packers21]

All fair points.

I am fine being singled out, and I love talking basketball and discussing. I have read through the proposal multiple times. The kids that are going to play sports are going to play them no matter what, there are kids these days that just do not want to put in time and effort and it wont matter to them if they play on team that wins 20 games a year.

You may be right. Think it might take a few years and some new blood in each of these programs to turn it around. Believe it's worth a shot.

I am not against a change in basketball, I do not hate this plan and if it passes I will still watch as much basketball as I can. There will still be plenty of 50 point games and you will have 2 state tournaments on the same weekend and I do no think you will have 2,000 ppl attend the A tournament.

50 point losses will occur but will bet it's reduced by 75%. As for the state tournaments, I agree if they keep them on the same weekend. That has to change. It automatically sets the proposal up for failure. It's bad for the fans, teams and in my opinion an economic disaster. Really makes no sense to me. However, if they figure out a way to get them on separate weekends, I will be attending both. Quit going to state tourneys about 5 years ago due to same old, same old. However, believe the middle class might turn in to the best division to watch for old school guys.

It doesn't matter how many classes you have, the same problems are going to exist. I could tell you right now with 95% accuracy in B and 99% in A who would be going to state over and over again. Is that the end goal? No, but it should be a goal.

Agree it's a goal. I'm a betting man, I will bet you cannot fulfill the predictions stated above the first year if it's passed. To make another bet, I will predict next year's class b tourney, but will be at >= 87.5%.

Do not let this plan fool you into think someone is out to save the little schools, this has been thrown out bc of who is on certain boards right now and its a better plan for the bigger schools and they small school just think it will work out better for them.

I hope you're wrong, but you may be right. Almost sounds like an old song.

If you have a complaint about scheduling competitive games, schedule different opponents. Most schools have 6-10 games a season they can play anyone they want.

Still have to play X many games in your district and region. Those turn out to be the most important games and generally against your biggest rivals. Getting smoked by the top teams each year kind of sets the tone for the district and region tourneys. Kind of deflating if you know what I mean.

I do think it passes, so we'll have to make our predictions.

Couple things that would make it better IMO.

NO privates in the lowest class.

State tournament date changes-one of the only things we agree on.

I would like to see the Class A regions split differently Fargo region is loaded, Minot region looks weak.

Do not love 2 teams from Class B regions going to state, wouldn't mind a sweet 16 version. This plan points out so much SD stuff why not follow it more. The most intense games in their seasons are the sweet 16.

I could go on and on.

[Flip]

Get it passed however it needs to get passed and then tweet every two years to try and improve it.

packers21 said it above that he'd like to see no privates in the middle class, does that mean AA or B? I was fine with going by a hard enrollment number and allowing opt-ups. There would be so much hatred towards OG, Shiloh, DT, and BR if they stayed in B.

BTW, is there anything to be said about opt-ups in the proposal?