3 class system

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Re: 3 class system

Postby scc » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:58 pm

Earlier in this thread, I posted the number of occurrences of #1 ranking in the boys poll in the past 16 seasons.

Even fewer teams can claim #1 on the girls side.

Girls:
Bottineau, 40
Bishop Ryan, 32
Beach, 20
Larimore, 20
Carrington, 10
North Star, 10
New Salem, 9
Shiloh Christian, 6
Thompson, 6
Langdon-Edmore-Munich, 4
Central Cass, 3
LaMoure-Litchville-Marion, 3
Dickinson Trinity, 1
Hazen, 1
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:32 pm

classB4ever wrote:MPCG - was a big school during their run, had once in a generation talent and were well coached.
Four Wind - biggest school in that region and good coaching.
Linton - small school, great runs of athletes, good coaching.
Beulah - biggest school in region and good coaching.
North Star - once in a generation talent during run and good coaching.

No surprises in any of this. Good athletes + Good coaching = Success.


MPCG has had once in a generation talent in 1987 (unbeaten state champs), 1995-96 and 2002-03?

North Star had once in a generation talent in 2001 (27-1 and state runner up) and again a few years later?

classB4ever wrote:
Not sure about the last 45 years, but the last 22 years, 11 years and 6 years are below:
Average finish last 22 years:
Region 4 3.27
Region 2 3.36
Region 7 4.00
Region 6 4.14
Region 1 5.00
Region 3 5.14
Region 5 5.55
Region 8 5.68

Average finish last 11 years:
Region 4 2.82
Region 2 3.91
Region 6 4.45
Region 1 4.45
Region 3 4.73
Region 7 4.82
Region 8 5.27
Region 5 5.55

Average finish last 6 years:
Region 4 2.00
Region 1 3.33
Region 6 3.50
Region 7 4.67
Region 3 4.83
Region 2 5.33
Region 5 5.50
Region 8 6.67

Region 4 has been the strongest.


Good point. I was considering championships (R2 has 7 and R4 5 over the last 22 years). But yes, R4 has been very strong as well. What do these two regions have in common? No private schools.

I also think it's interesting that I have never heard anyone bring up Four Winds' success as a reason to have three classes. It's always about private schools.

classB4ever wrote:
So let me get this straight, you gave examples of how poorly parochial schools have done over this time frame at state and feel people are jealous of their success? Not quite sure of that logic.

Personally, I don't get emotional about these things and is the reason for listing the data and ideas for discussion. Love ND basketball and think there are some problems and believe through discussion there can be some changes to get participation levels up.


No, I didn't say the parochial schools did poorly. I pointed out that a couple of them have been very successful, but not outlandishly so. This is not a situation like with DeLaSalle in MN which has won 5 straight state titles. Interesting thing about MN basketball: they have four classes and yet they average about two private schools a year making it to state in the smallest class.

I agree that this is a great debate/discussion. I don't believe that three classes will do anything to get the participation levels up. This is a problem in the states with four or five classes.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:35 pm

classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Anyone want to run the girls data because all arguments given have just talked BBB?!?

Hope someone does. Haven't kept those numbers. Would be very interesting to see last 5 years in GBB and volleyball. Also going forward should be interesting as well.


All the complaints have been towards ND Class B BOYS Basketball...if a 3-Class system happens GBB & VB will have to follow suit with the same system. Is there as much issue in Class B GBB & Volleyball as people seem to be having in BBB? Not a simple yes or no answer...show support like you have towards BBB.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby woodchuck10 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:48 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Anyone want to run the girls data because all arguments given have just talked BBB?!?

Hope someone does. Haven't kept those numbers. Would be very interesting to see last 5 years in GBB and volleyball. Also going forward should be interesting as well.


All the complaints have been towards ND Class B BOYS Basketball...if a 3-Class system happens GBB & VB will have to follow suit with the same system. Is there as much issue in Class B GBB & Volleyball as people seem to be having in BBB? Not a simple yes or no answer...show support like you have towards BBB.


I do think that our 2 class system works but would think it would be cool to see classB4ever’s system and have 4 “upper” enrollment and 4 “lower” enrollment region champions play in a state tournement. This guarantees 4 big and 4 small and that they compete against similar sized opponents in order to get to state.

I see people arguing about the state tourney and how teams compete when they get there. Isn’t the goal of most teams to win the region? So having competitive Regionals should be the goal. And a revitalization of districts is a nice addition.

Speaking of comparing boys and girls programs. The St. John boys team has never made a class B state tournement. This year will be their best chance at that and it’s still not a given with Four Winds, Dunseith and a couple dark horses in Langdon and New Rockford.

As for the girls team in St. John they have not made a Regional tournement since 1977. That year they took 6th in state. From 77 until now St. John has gradually went from a small class B school to a medium sized class B school. And in that time the district has shrunk to only 6 teams and they play a Dunseith team that beat them by 48 points earlier in the year. Two programs at the same school with two different droughts.

Have any girls or boys team not made regionals longer than or close to 40 years?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:21 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Anyone want to run the girls data because all arguments given have just talked BBB?!?

Hope someone does. Haven't kept those numbers. Would be very interesting to see last 5 years in GBB and volleyball. Also going forward should be interesting as well.


All the complaints have been towards ND Class B BOYS Basketball...if a 3-Class system happens GBB & VB will have to follow suit with the same system. Is there as much issue in Class B GBB & Volleyball as people seem to be having in BBB? Not a simple yes or no answer...show support like you have towards BBB.

If you want to talk about them, take the time, do the research and post it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:05 pm

classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Anyone want to run the girls data because all arguments given have just talked BBB?!?

Hope someone does. Haven't kept those numbers. Would be very interesting to see last 5 years in GBB and volleyball. Also going forward should be interesting as well.


All the complaints have been towards ND Class B BOYS Basketball...if a 3-Class system happens GBB & VB will have to follow suit with the same system. Is there as much issue in Class B GBB & Volleyball as people seem to be having in BBB? Not a simple yes or no answer...show support like you have towards BBB.

If you want to talk about them, take the time, do the research and post it.


I wish I had the time...was wondering if anyone else had done that research. I barely have the time to do all the stuff I already do on this site for the 'fun of it' and work all my other jobs to make a living.

Just know if a 3-class system is going to happen...it is going to be needed across all 3 areas (BBB, GBB & VB) and valid arguments are going to be needed across all 3 areas; if only 1 area is a problem I see nothing being done, 2 areas I see that talks moving forward...3 and I see talks moving further. Does that mean the a 3-class system will happen? No...but it just may move it further than the hypotheticals...no?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:49 pm

How did St. John get bigger?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby woodchuck10 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:31 pm

Flip wrote:How did St. John get bigger?

Various reasons. Overflow from the reservation, kids/parents that are in our school district deciding to goto St. John instead of Belcourt, we have kids that live in Rolla, Dunseith, Rolette, and Belcourt that goto school in St. John. Also as rural population has gotten smaller we do have Lake Upsilon north west of town and a decent amount of people live there year around. In the 70’s and 80’s we had around 15-20 per grade. Now it’s 30 give or take a couple per grade.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:41 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Anyone want to run the girls data because all arguments given have just talked BBB?!?

Hope someone does. Haven't kept those numbers. Would be very interesting to see last 5 years in GBB and volleyball. Also going forward should be interesting as well.


All the complaints have been towards ND Class B BOYS Basketball...if a 3-Class system happens GBB & VB will have to follow suit with the same system. Is there as much issue in Class B GBB & Volleyball as people seem to be having in BBB? Not a simple yes or no answer...show support like you have towards BBB.

If you want to talk about them, take the time, do the research and post it.


I wish I had the time...was wondering if anyone else had done that research. I barely have the time to do all the stuff I already do on this site for the 'fun of it' and work all my other jobs to make a living.

Just know if a 3-class system is going to happen...it is going to be needed across all 3 areas (BBB, GBB & VB) and valid arguments are going to be needed across all 3 areas; if only 1 area is a problem I see nothing being done, 2 areas I see that talks moving forward...3 and I see talks moving further. Does that mean the a 3-class system will happen? No...but it just may move it further than the hypotheticals...no?

IMHO, they tag GBB and volleyball into the discussion because it was always their excuse for not doing anything. Boys don't have volleyball, why should it be in the discussions? Perhaps volleyball should have 5 classes like football? More players, no? One last thing, look at the recent GBB polls. Seems they look similar to boys polls for last few years. The same look for a reason and the discussion has already started for them as well.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sorenson23 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:52 am

Like what classB4ever posted that wouldn't be a bad idea probably would never happen. But having a class AA with Bismarck High, Minot, Fargo Shanley etc.,and Class A with Valley City, Wahpeton, Minot Ryan, Shiloh etc. And Class B with Linton-HMB, Velva, Divide County etc. If not a 3 class system what about getting rid off districts and having a super region tournament. I know regions 1,2,&7 have it but when are 3,4,5,6,8 supposed to see it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:36 am

B Historian wrote:
classB4ever wrote:MPCG - was a big school during their run, had once in a generation talent and were well coached.
Four Wind - biggest school in that region and good coaching.
Linton - small school, great runs of athletes, good coaching.
Beulah - biggest school in region and good coaching.
North Star - once in a generation talent during run and good coaching.

No surprises in any of this. Good athletes + Good coaching = Success.


MPCG has had once in a generation talent in 1987 (unbeaten state champs), 1995-96 and 2002-03?

North Star had once in a generation talent in 2001 (27-1 and state runner up) and again a few years later?


You are correct. These 2 schools, MP-C-G (3) and Cando/NS (2) did have runs over 30 years. Probably were a few more as well. Linton and Leeds come to mind.

Let's be perfectly honest. The reason that this discussion comes back up every year, is that a different town, in a different region, with once in a decade/generation talent, comes up against the "gate keeper" of said region and they lose. They have been following that group of kids for 6 - 12 years and just knew they were going to be the 1 group that would finally get them to the coveted state tourney. Only to find out that it takes 8 kids deep to win 3 - 4 nights in a row. With that said, some are perfectly happy to just get to the region tournament, win 1 game at regions, or get to the region championship. Some are not.

Now, some get up against the "gate keepers" and they win. This keeps the state tournament alive. My point in discussing this, is that it's just a matter of time (getting close) that the state tourney will be 75 - 90% predictable. When that happens, it becomes stagnant. People quit going and people quit watching because it's the same teams over and over.

Here's where the problem has always been. Are the same teams going because they are simply better athletes and better coached? There is surely some truth to this.

There is also truth that teams are traveling 50 - 60 miles a night, to and from these same tournaments. They get home later, get up earlier. There are smaller advantages of having these tournaments in your home towns.

The system we have been discussing has little chance of ever seeing the light of day. I think it would really help level the playing field and bring back quality basketball. The hybrid system would guarantee quality regions and a fun state tournament. The problem is every year, some of the A regions would have a No. 2 team that would most likely be better than a No. 1 from a B region. There is no way around this. If it were up to me, would send top 2 teams from all the region finals. 16 team state tourney. All 2 seeds play off to advance to 1 seed tourney. Forget about 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th place brackets. Play out to top 4 spots. Problem is, town logistics, tournament logistics, etc. will just not let this happen.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby woodchuck10 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:34 pm

classB4ever wrote:
B Historian wrote:
classB4ever wrote:MPCG - was a big school during their run, had once in a generation talent and were well coached.
Four Wind - biggest school in that region and good coaching.
Linton - small school, great runs of athletes, good coaching.
Beulah - biggest school in region and good coaching.
North Star - once in a generation talent during run and good coaching.

No surprises in any of this. Good athletes + Good coaching = Success.


MPCG has had once in a generation talent in 1987 (unbeaten state champs), 1995-96 and 2002-03?

North Star had once in a generation talent in 2001 (27-1 and state runner up) and again a few years later?


You are correct. These 2 schools, MP-C-G (3) and Cando/NS (2) did have runs over 30 years. Probably were a few more as well. Linton and Leeds come to mind.

Let's be perfectly honest. The reason that this discussion comes back up every year, is that a different town, in a different region, with once in a decade/generation talent, comes up against the "gate keeper" of said region and they lose. They have been following that group of kids for 6 - 12 years and just knew they were going to be the 1 group that would finally get them to the coveted state tourney. Only to find out that it takes 8 kids deep to win 3 - 4 nights in a row. With that said, some are perfectly happy to just get to the region tournament, win 1 game at regions, or get to the region championship. Some are not.

Now, some get up against the "gate keepers" and they win. This keeps the state tournament alive. My point in discussing this, is that it's just a matter of time (getting close) that the state tourney will be 75 - 90% predictable. When that happens, it becomes stagnant. People quit going and people quit watching because it's the same teams over and over.

Here's where the problem has always been. Are the same teams going because they are simply better athletes and better coached? There is surely some truth to this.

There is also truth that teams are traveling 50 - 60 miles a night, to and from these same tournaments. They get home later, get up earlier. There are smaller advantages of having these tournaments in your home towns.

The system we have been discussing has little chance of ever seeing the light of day. I think it would really help level the playing field and bring back quality basketball. The hybrid system would guarantee quality regions and a fun state tournament. The problem is every year, some of the A regions would have a No. 2 team that would most likely be better than a No. 1 from a B region. There is no way around this. If it were up to me, would send top 2 teams from all the region finals. 16 team state tourney. All 2 seeds play off to advance to 1 seed tourney. Forget about 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th place brackets. Play out to top 4 spots. Problem is, town logistics, tournament logistics, etc. will just not let this happen.


Would not like to see region runner ups at state. I like that we have 8 champions at state. Yea some of the runner ups are better than at least half of the teams at state but so what. The year when Region 4 and 7 had the top four teams in state playing in the region title come to mind, North Star vs Four Winds and Beulah vs Dickinson trinity. Some people were saying the runner ups should get to goto state. That’s what makes the region tournement in Class b so great. And we have a true state tournement. 8 championship teams from 8 different areas of the state.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:07 pm

woodchuck10 wrote:
That’s what makes the region tournement in Class b so great. And we have a true state tournement. 8 championship teams from 8 different areas of the state.


Fair point. Input like yours is what makes a discussion beneficial. NDHSAA has taken a lot of heat over the years and if there was an easy solution believe they would have done it. If nothing else, discussion about it brings some traffic to preps for honest discussion. Also enjoy hearing opinions from across the state and various regions. The population is so different in some regions and one of the reasons change is hard to accomplish.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:31 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Anyone want to run the girls data because all arguments given have just talked BBB?!?

Hope someone does. Haven't kept those numbers. Would be very interesting to see last 5 years in GBB and volleyball. Also going forward should be interesting as well.


All the complaints have been towards ND Class B BOYS Basketball...if a 3-Class system happens GBB & VB will have to follow suit with the same system. Is there as much issue in Class B GBB & Volleyball as people seem to be having in BBB? Not a simple yes or no answer...show support like you have towards BBB.


Private schools have won 4 of the last 5 titles in girls basketball. Three straight by Minot Ryan from 2013-15 and Shiloh Christian in 2016. Those Ryan teams were among the best in state history but what's interesting is that prior to Ryan's run they hadn't been to state in 19 years.

Also interesting is that Oak Grove has just one state appearance in the last 39 years and Dickinson Trinity has just four appearances, only reaching the state semis once. Apparently the insurmountable advantages that everyone claims these programs have on the boys side aren't there on the girls side? Interesting to say the least.

No private school has won a state volleyball title.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:24 am

classB4ever wrote:
You are correct. These 2 schools, MP-C-G (3) and Cando/NS (2) did have runs over 30 years. Probably were a few more as well. Linton and Leeds come to mind.

Let's be perfectly honest. The reason that this discussion comes back up every year, is that a different town, in a different region, with once in a decade/generation talent, comes up against the "gate keeper" of said region and they lose. They have been following that group of kids for 6 - 12 years and just knew they were going to be the 1 group that would finally get them to the coveted state tourney. Only to find out that it takes 8 kids deep to win 3 - 4 nights in a row. With that said, some are perfectly happy to just get to the region tournament, win 1 game at regions, or get to the region championship. Some are not.

Now, some get up against the "gate keepers" and they win. This keeps the state tournament alive. My point in discussing this, is that it's just a matter of time (getting close) that the state tourney will be 75 - 90% predictable. When that happens, it becomes stagnant. People quit going and people quit watching because it's the same teams over and over.

Here's where the problem has always been. Are the same teams going because they are simply better athletes and better coached? There is surely some truth to this.

There is also truth that teams are traveling 50 - 60 miles a night, to and from these same tournaments. They get home later, get up earlier. There are smaller advantages of having these tournaments in your home towns.

The system we have been discussing has little chance of ever seeing the light of day. I think it would really help level the playing field and bring back quality basketball. The hybrid system would guarantee quality regions and a fun state tournament. The problem is every year, some of the A regions would have a No. 2 team that would most likely be better than a No. 1 from a B region. There is no way around this. If it were up to me, would send top 2 teams from all the region finals. 16 team state tourney. All 2 seeds play off to advance to 1 seed tourney. Forget about 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th place brackets. Play out to top 4 spots. Problem is, town logistics, tournament logistics, etc. will just not let this happen.


I agree your "gate keeper" analogy. However- and this may sound harsh- but sometimes a town's best isn't good enough. Just because a community has a once in a generation talent doesn't mean a trip to state is a birthright. It's hard to get to the State B and that is a big part of the charm of it. Back in the 70's and 80's when there were over 200 teams it was even harder to do.

I don't agree with the your premise that the state tournament is stale and predictable. Yes, we tend to have private schools and large schools taking 4-5 spots but every year there are small schools in it as well. Last year we had Ellendale (small and first appearance in 32 years), Stanley (large but first appearance in 79 years) and TLMM (small) in the tournament. Then there was Ellendale knocking off Trinity on the last second shot and a great championship game played before a packed house. The year before Northern Cass (first ever appearance) Strasburg-Zeeland (very small) and Kenmare (first appearance in 28 years) were in it. I think the last few tournaments have been a perfect mix and far from stale and boring.

The location for region tournaments will always be something people complain about. I remember hearing at the state level back in the 80's about the complaints coming from Region 2. At that time that tournament was held at Mayville State which was a big advantage for districts 5 and 7 that contained the surrounding schools. District 6 was made up of Valley City area schools like Litchville and Rogers North Central. District 8 was made up of Devils Lake area schools like Lakota and Tolna. Hillsboro and Mayville-Portland already had a big advantage and the travel that other schools in the region had to do just added to it.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby packers21 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:38 am

B Historian wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
You are correct. These 2 schools, MP-C-G (3) and Cando/NS (2) did have runs over 30 years. Probably were a few more as well. Linton and Leeds come to mind.

Let's be perfectly honest. The reason that this discussion comes back up every year, is that a different town, in a different region, with once in a decade/generation talent, comes up against the "gate keeper" of said region and they lose. They have been following that group of kids for 6 - 12 years and just knew they were going to be the 1 group that would finally get them to the coveted state tourney. Only to find out that it takes 8 kids deep to win 3 - 4 nights in a row. With that said, some are perfectly happy to just get to the region tournament, win 1 game at regions, or get to the region championship. Some are not.

Now, some get up against the "gate keepers" and they win. This keeps the state tournament alive. My point in discussing this, is that it's just a matter of time (getting close) that the state tourney will be 75 - 90% predictable. When that happens, it becomes stagnant. People quit going and people quit watching because it's the same teams over and over.

Here's where the problem has always been. Are the same teams going because they are simply better athletes and better coached? There is surely some truth to this.

There is also truth that teams are traveling 50 - 60 miles a night, to and from these same tournaments. They get home later, get up earlier. There are smaller advantages of having these tournaments in your home towns.

The system we have been discussing has little chance of ever seeing the light of day. I think it would really help level the playing field and bring back quality basketball. The hybrid system would guarantee quality regions and a fun state tournament. The problem is every year, some of the A regions would have a No. 2 team that would most likely be better than a No. 1 from a B region. There is no way around this. If it were up to me, would send top 2 teams from all the region finals. 16 team state tourney. All 2 seeds play off to advance to 1 seed tourney. Forget about 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th place brackets. Play out to top 4 spots. Problem is, town logistics, tournament logistics, etc. will just not let this happen.


I agree your "gate keeper" analogy. However- and this may sound harsh- but sometimes a town's best isn't good enough. Just because a community has a once in a generation talent doesn't mean a trip to state is a birthright. It's hard to get to the State B and that is a big part of the charm of it. Back in the 70's and 80's when there were over 200 teams it was even harder to do.

I don't agree with the your premise that the state tournament is stale and predictable. Yes, we tend to have private schools and large schools taking 4-5 spots but every year there are small schools in it as well. Last year we had Ellendale (small and first appearance in 32 years), Stanley (large but first appearance in 79 years) and TLMM (small) in the tournament. Then there was Ellendale knocking off Trinity on the last second shot and a great championship game played before a packed house. The year before Northern Cass (first ever appearance) Strasburg-Zeeland (very small) and Kenmare (first appearance in 28 years) were in it. I think the last few tournaments have been a perfect mix and far from stale and boring.

The location for region tournaments will always be something people complain about. I remember hearing at the state level back in the 80's about the complaints coming from Region 2. At that time that tournament was held at Mayville State which was a big advantage for districts 5 and 7 that contained the surrounding schools. District 6 was made up of Valley City area schools like Litchville and Rogers North Central. District 8 was made up of Devils Lake area schools like Lakota and Tolna. Hillsboro and Mayville-Portland already had a big advantage and the travel that other schools in the region had to do just added to it.


I think ppl complain more about the fact Regionals are held on a teams home-court. Grafton (not the case anymore) and Dickinson Trinity are 2 places that come to mind.
It is a little harder to motivate kids I guess because they’ve been pampered so much. We’re in the trophy generation, give ‘em a trophy for 23rd place, make ‘em feel good. Make mom and dad feel good.” Tom Izzo, Michigan State Basketball
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:50 am

B Historian wrote:
I agree your "gate keeper" analogy. However- and this may sound harsh- but sometimes a town's best isn't good enough. Just because a community has a once in a generation talent doesn't mean a trip to state is a birthright. It's hard to get to the State B and that is a big part of the charm of it. Back in the 70's and 80's when there were over 200 teams it was even harder to do.


Not harsh whatsoever and agree 100%.

B Historian wrote:
I don't agree with the your premise that the state tournament is stale and predictable.


Didn't say that. Said it is getting close to becoming predictable and when that happens will become stagnant.

B Historian wrote:
The location for region tournaments will always be something people complain about.


There was no complaint. I was stating there is an advantage of having the tournaments in your home town. I don't think anybody will dispute that. However, logistically there is no other way to do it and therefore no need for further discussion.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:32 pm

If you went to a 3 class system that would eliminate 99% of the complaints about region tournament locations. The small division tournaments could all be played at neutral sites.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:51 pm

B Historian wrote:
I don't agree with the your premise that the state tournament is stale and predictable. Yes, we tend to have private schools and large schools taking 4-5 spots but every year there are small schools in it as well. Last year we had Ellendale (small and first appearance in 32 years), Stanley (large but first appearance in 79 years) and TLMM (small) in the tournament. Then there was Ellendale knocking off Trinity on the last second shot and a great championship game played before a packed house. The year before Northern Cass (first ever appearance) Strasburg-Zeeland (very small) and Kenmare (first appearance in 28 years) were in it. I think the last few tournaments have been a perfect mix and far from stale and boring.



I am going to predict the state field for the next 10 years. Let me ask if you would bet AGAINST the predictions being >75% correct.

Region 1 - Oak Grove
Region 2 - Grafton or H-CV (Thompson and/or Cavalier will win this region at least once in next 10 years)
Region 3 - a small school
Region 4 - Four Winds-Minn.
Region 5 - Shiloh
Region 6 - Bishop Ryan
Region 7 - Dickinson Trinity or Beulah
Region 8 - a small school

Please understand, all these schools have great programs. Good coaching staffs and athletes. No disputing that. One other thing would like to mention, these schools have been bringing great student/fan sections to the state tournament.

The Schwab wrote:If you went to a 3 class system that would eliminate 99% of the complaints about region tournament locations. The small division tournaments could all be played at neutral sites.


Good point.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby bequickdonthurry » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:53 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:A few things could be done, but it will take all AD's to get on board and use some common sense. The district tournaments for instance need to be done away with. This is not going to be popular because it is a major money maker in some districts. But in reality, they are having 3 nights of basketball to reduce the field from 6 to 4 in many districts. I repeat, 3 nights of basketball to get from 6 teams to 4 teams. These teams are playing one another 3 to 4 times during the season as it is. It is ludicrous. The system mentioned in above thread isn't a bad idea. Can you imagine having 4 regional tournaments like that? These Regionals would be miniature state tournaments against like opponents. They would truly be Super Regionals. To make up for the money lost at the district level, 2 more games would be gained in regular season. If some of these higher ups would use a little round table thinking, the beginning round of these Super Regionals could even be played at the home court of the higher seed, also helping to offset the loss in income from the district tourneys. It's mind blowing that they cannot come up with a better system to what we've had for 50 years considering the change in ND's landscape and population base.


One should keep in mind that what is common sense to one might be complete lunacy to another. So it is with some of this post.

What I can agree with is the 3 nights of ball to eliminate 2 teams is crazy. It leads to bleacher butt or fan burnout, especially when more and more games are being televised. Of all the things that have changed in class B ball, the 8-team region is not one of them. The 3 nights of regional tournaments are a significant revenue source for the NDHSAA and the NDHSAA is not willing to restrict that cash cow. One must remember there is no direct payback to the schools from the regional level. Tournament participation does factor in to the payment plan/formula of the NHDSAA, but is certainly NOT a direct payment like revenue sharing from district tournaments.

Where I rise in opposition is the notion that two additional regular season games are going to offset the revenue derived from district tournaments. An administrator was able to shed some light on this for me. In our particular district, schools will quite likely get a profit sharing from just the girls tournament alone that will be over $1000, noting that our admission was down this year. In our community, on an average night, our administration is happy with a gate of $700. However on an average night, more than $500 goes to paying officials. Lets see, $1000 vs. $200.

You might think, wait, you get to schedule two extra games. Yes, but one will be on the road and there will be no revenue at all. You also need to keep in mind, chances are that in your 19-game schedule you are already playing those teams the closest distance. To add two more games, you are going to increase travel distance. Increase travel distance, and you decrease gate revenue. Adding two games is not the answer.

Even in super regionals, that's the NDHSAA's money. If the money would stay at the home site, it might be a little more than the $200 mentioned above, but only 3 or 4 teams are going to get that. If the money were shared, then take that total from the three four sites and divide by 11 or 12. Tell me, how is that replacing the district tournament profit mentioned above?

I just keep hoping that one day, someone smarter than us will figure all this out.....some day.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:50 pm

bequickdonthurry wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:A few things could be done, but it will take all AD's to get on board and use some common sense. The district tournaments for instance need to be done away with. This is not going to be popular because it is a major money maker in some districts. But in reality, they are having 3 nights of basketball to reduce the field from 6 to 4 in many districts. I repeat, 3 nights of basketball to get from 6 teams to 4 teams. These teams are playing one another 3 to 4 times during the season as it is. It is ludicrous. The system mentioned in above thread isn't a bad idea. Can you imagine having 4 regional tournaments like that? These Regionals would be miniature state tournaments against like opponents. They would truly be Super Regionals. To make up for the money lost at the district level, 2 more games would be gained in regular season. If some of these higher ups would use a little round table thinking, the beginning round of these Super Regionals could even be played at the home court of the higher seed, also helping to offset the loss in income from the district tourneys. It's mind blowing that they cannot come up with a better system to what we've had for 50 years considering the change in ND's landscape and population base.


One should keep in mind that what is common sense to one might be complete lunacy to another. So it is with some of this post.

What I can agree with is the 3 nights of ball to eliminate 2 teams is crazy. It leads to bleacher butt or fan burnout, especially when more and more games are being televised. Of all the things that have changed in class B ball, the 8-team region is not one of them. The 3 nights of regional tournaments are a significant revenue source for the NDHSAA and the NDHSAA is not willing to restrict that cash cow. One must remember there is no direct payback to the schools from the regional level. Tournament participation does factor in to the payment plan/formula of the NHDSAA, but is certainly NOT a direct payment like revenue sharing from district tournaments.

Where I rise in opposition is the notion that two additional regular season games are going to offset the revenue derived from district tournaments. An administrator was able to shed some light on this for me. In our particular district, schools will quite likely get a profit sharing from just the girls tournament alone that will be over $1000, noting that our admission was down this year. In our community, on an average night, our administration is happy with a gate of $700. However on an average night, more than $500 goes to paying officials. Lets see, $1000 vs. $200.

You might think, wait, you get to schedule two extra games. Yes, but one will be on the road and there will be no revenue at all. You also need to keep in mind, chances are that in your 19-game schedule you are already playing those teams the closest distance. To add two more games, you are going to increase travel distance. Increase travel distance, and you decrease gate revenue. Adding two games is not the answer.

Even in super regionals, that's the NDHSAA's money. If the money would stay at the home site, it might be a little more than the $200 mentioned above, but only 3 or 4 teams are going to get that. If the money were shared, then take that total from the three four sites and divide by 11 or 12. Tell me, how is that replacing the district tournament profit mentioned above?

I just keep hoping that one day, someone smarter than us will figure all this out.....some day.


Terrific post. Great info to know. Have read a lot of other posts on this website recently, majority in favor of districts. Would have never guessed it. The schools, fans and most importantly players want to keep them. Stand corrected. Thanks for great information.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:08 pm

The 3 class system all boils down to what you value and what should be the primary focus of high school athletics. My stance is it should be about the KIDS.
If it was about the KIDS, we would have a 3 class system with 8 districts and 4 regions (top two in each region go to state). If it was about the KIDS, all regional tournaments would be played on a neutral floor every year.
If only high school athletics was about the KIDS.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B-oldtimer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:20 am

Great Post Schwab! I can't agree with you more its about the kids and I sure wish everybody could get that that's why activities were created. Thank you for putting it such simple terms.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:24 am

bequickdonthurry wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:A few things could be done, but it will take all AD's to get on board and use some common sense. The district tournaments for instance need to be done away with. This is not going to be popular because it is a major money maker in some districts. But in reality, they are having 3 nights of basketball to reduce the field from 6 to 4 in many districts. I repeat, 3 nights of basketball to get from 6 teams to 4 teams. These teams are playing one another 3 to 4 times during the season as it is. It is ludicrous. The system mentioned in above thread isn't a bad idea. Can you imagine having 4 regional tournaments like that? These Regionals would be miniature state tournaments against like opponents. They would truly be Super Regionals. To make up for the money lost at the district level, 2 more games would be gained in regular season. If some of these higher ups would use a little round table thinking, the beginning round of these Super Regionals could even be played at the home court of the higher seed, also helping to offset the loss in income from the district tourneys. It's mind blowing that they cannot come up with a better system to what we've had for 50 years considering the change in ND's landscape and population base.


One should keep in mind that what is common sense to one might be complete lunacy to another. So it is with some of this post.

What I can agree with is the 3 nights of ball to eliminate 2 teams is crazy. It leads to bleacher butt or fan burnout, especially when more and more games are being televised. Of all the things that have changed in class B ball, the 8-team region is not one of them. The 3 nights of regional tournaments are a significant revenue source for the NDHSAA and the NDHSAA is not willing to restrict that cash cow. One must remember there is no direct payback to the schools from the regional level. Tournament participation does factor in to the payment plan/formula of the NHDSAA, but is certainly NOT a direct payment like revenue sharing from district tournaments.

Where I rise in opposition is the notion that two additional regular season games are going to offset the revenue derived from district tournaments. An administrator was able to shed some light on this for me. In our particular district, schools will quite likely get a profit sharing from just the girls tournament alone that will be over $1000, noting that our admission was down this year. In our community, on an average night, our administration is happy with a gate of $700. However on an average night, more than $500 goes to paying officials. Lets see, $1000 vs. $200.

You might think, wait, you get to schedule two extra games. Yes, but one will be on the road and there will be no revenue at all. You also need to keep in mind, chances are that in your 19-game schedule you are already playing those teams the closest distance. To add two more games, you are going to increase travel distance. Increase travel distance, and you decrease gate revenue. Adding two games is not the answer.

Even in super regionals, that's the NDHSAA's money. If the money would stay at the home site, it might be a little more than the $200 mentioned above, but only 3 or 4 teams are going to get that. If the money were shared, then take that total from the three four sites and divide by 11 or 12. Tell me, how is that replacing the district tournament profit mentioned above?

I just keep hoping that one day, someone smarter than us will figure all this out.....some day.


I do agree with what you're saying and see your point, but not all districts are profitable either. I was an AD in the past and remember clearly our school once received a $37 in profit sharing from our district tournament and other years where there was no check because the tournament ran on a loss.

I think a good starting point would be to see what districts make money and the reason why they are profitable. Is it because there are 8 teams instead of only 6? Is it because the district has a competitive balance and the same team is not winning each year? Is it because it is made up of mostly small schools and those towns still travel well to see the team play in a tournament? I don't know.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:28 pm

Something interesting when talking about ND basketball is that the Consolidated League (formed in 1921) was much more ahead of the time than Classified High School League (became NDHSAA in 1955). The Consolidated League had girl's basketball before 1930's. They started having state tournaments in the 1930's. NDHSAA, on the other hand, stated "There will be no girl's state tournaments" in their handbook in 1925. In 1933, they stated, "There will be no girl's bb or athletics." The Consolidated League continued to have girl's basketball up until 1950 when they merged with NDHSAA. It continued for 10 more years, when it disappeared.

During this same time, boys sports were much more prevalent. One interesting item is that in 1948 Class C started in NDHSAA. 1948-1950 there were 4 state champions. A, B and C for NDHSAA and 1 Consolidated Champion. In 1950, the Consolidated League merged with NDHSAA for a 5 year trial. During that time there were 3 state champions, A, B and C. This continued beyond the 5 year trial period until 1963. A funny note is that there was supposedly an agreement upon the merger, that Class C could never be abolished unless voted on by the Class C schools. However, in 1963, ALL schools voted on it and it was abolished. During this same time, girl's basketball went away.

It was not until the fall of 1973 that girl's basketball came back. With state championships in A and B in 1974. It was not until 1983 that girl's volleyball was started in class A and 1988 in class B.

Amazing what can happen in a 50 year stretch.
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