Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby rep » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:30 am

sounds like minnesota's wrestling coaches association is talking about putting forth a proposition to cut the total number of weight classes from 14 to 12. not sure if they are trying to do it for this upcoming season or at some point in the future.

it sounds like their proposal has the weight classes beginning at 108 and ending at 285.

any thoughts on if north dakota should follow suit and evaluate if 14 classes are too many for the state to handle?
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Postby cubsfan » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:29 pm

It would help out the schools with number problems and it would also help out the best programs.  Small schools could fill out a lineup and better programs would weed out some of the weaker wrestlers.
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Postby baseball » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:28 pm

2 classes.....Lightweight ,under 200....Heavyweight, over 200....haha
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Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:12 pm

seems kind of silly to be bouncing weight classes around.......wasn't that long ago that the 215 was added so there'd be a weight class other than heavy for the low 200 guys.......if they constantly bounce weight classes, its going to result in every year a change b/c there are no lower weights or this year there's no middle weights, etc. 
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Postby ndfootballwrestling » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:06 am

This sounds rather counter productive to me, why eliminate 2 weight classes? Yeah everybody knows it's tough to fill a roster, but this isn't supposed to be easy. Leave the weight classes alone or bump the 103# and add like a 240# class if any switching at all. What will the Minnesota teams that go to ND or WI, and or SD do forfeit or just bring some kid with little or no expeience with to fill the weight class. This sounds like a good recipe for injury to me. Thanks just my opinion. :? 
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby blue steel » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:05 am

The kid from barnesville that beat Von Ruden saturday was really tough
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby Wombat » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:48 am

This idea gets brought up almost every year at the state coaches meeting. Many coaches are for dropping to 13 or 12 weight classes, but many are for keeping them at 14.

215 was added in 1998 or 1999, i can't remember exactly when, but I think the main reason for this was because there were a lot of kids between 210-230 who either had to wrestle guys 40-60 pounds heavier than they were or cut 25-40 pounds to get to the next lowest weight class (189)... that's a pretty big span from 189-275, and now HWT is 285 so it would be even more.

Minnesota didn't add 215 until 2-3 years after ND did. so they will be bouncing their weight classes around more often than ND. Football classes get reclassified every 2 years. North Border for example was 9-man, then got moved to 11-man, and then 2 years later were back down in 9-man. ND hasn't changed weight classes in 8-9 years, that isn't too bad, but times do change and we have to be able to adapt with them.

As far as what would MN do if they were traveling to other states to wrestle or if other states were coming to MN, they would do the same thing they did before they adopted 215, which was wrestle by the rules of the state which they were competing in.

My personal opinion on this would be to cut the weight classes down to 12-13. It is becoming increasingly difficult for teams in both class A and B to fill rosters. For instance this past weekend in Hillsboro there was a dual tournament. Only 1 of the 9 teams (Barnsville, MN) had a full 14 man roster, 2 other teams had 1 weight class open, and the remaining six had at least 2 or more open weight classes. Some of the teams that have full or close to full line-ups are filling them with young, inexperienced, JV caliber wrestlers who are called on just to fill the void. These kids are helping their varsity by not giving up byes or even taking byes in some instances, but they would benefit so much more getting their experience on the JV where they can wrestle more competitive matches and can have a chance to win. How many 8th or 9th graders do you think enjoy wrestling on the varsity and going 2-28 and get pinned 27 times? there's a good chance they would rather be on JV and be 15-15... and if they do go 2-28 there's a good chance that the next year their record will be 0-0 because they quit.

That brings up my next point. How many people have been to JV football games, JV Baseball games, B OR C squad Basketball games, Volleyball games, or etc... What about wrestling? where's the JV? most teams have less than 5 JV wrestlers, if any at all. It is essential to have a JV program to develop wrestlers and keep wrestling interesting for younger or less experienced kids. if there were only 12 weight classes being wrestled at some varsity tournaments maybe they could use the time they are saving to run a smaller JV tournament. Of the 5 tournaments our team is attending this year none of them have a JV tournament. Hillsboro did allow for preliminary matches during their dual tournament which was great, but the other 4 either have NO JV at all or will allow the JV to wrestle as unnattached wrestlers in the varsity tournament which again defeats the purpose of having a JV.

I would be all for having 25 weight classes if teams could fill them with quality wrestlers, but at the point we are at right now in ND I would just as soon see a few less weight classes if it resulted in better competition. It would make the varsity better because, like cubsfan stated earlier, it would weed out a few of these less experienced varsity wrestlers. Plus as crazy as it sounds I feel it would cause MORE matches to be wrestled in varsity meets. With less open weight classes on both teams there are less places to bump your wrestlers to take byes for team points. If a team has a 3 pt lead with two weights to go and both teams have one open weight the team with the lead is going to swap forfeits and take a win because of lack of participants instead of letting the kids they DO have decide the outcome. that isn't what the sport should be about.
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby Hinsa » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:13 pm

Very well state Wombat.

I'd like to see the classes dropped to 12 because of the difficulty in fielding full teams, especially in Class B. And I believe the classes that should be dropped need to be at the high end. That seems to be where most of the forfeits come from.

Here's another way to look at it - what other sport do you have where there are 14 starters?

Baseball has 9 or 10 (DH), Basketball has 5, football has as few as nine or as many as 22 but the point is you can field a full team with as few as 9 players, hockey has 6, etc. 14 players of so many different sizes are hard for most schools to find.
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby Wombat » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:46 am

Hinsa,

I think you make some great points.

One thing that I forgot to mention when I posted that first article is that the biggest problem when determining to drop from 14 to 12 weights is not whether or not it would benefit the sport, but rather how to cut out 2 weights. Would we simply cut 2 weights and keep the remaining 12, or would we decide to scrap the current weight system and come up with a completely new set of 12 weights. If that was the case how low would we start? would we want to spread the weights evenly or have more middle weights, light weights, or heavyweights.

I'd like to see the classes dropped to 12 because of the difficulty in fielding full teams, especially in Class B.


Yes you are right in saying that Class B has a more difficult time as so far through 20 Class B-Duals, 18 class A duals there have been 109 forfeits in weight classes in Class B (23 of them were double forfeits where neither team had a wrestler at the weight class) compared to Class A, which has had 36 Byes, 0 of which were double forfeits.

And I believe the classes that should be dropped need to be at the high end. That seems to be where most of the forfeits come from.


But here's where you're wrong

I have not broke them down by every single individual weight class, But I did single out 103 and 285. Then I put the remaining 12 weights into groups of 4 (112-130, 135-152, and 160-215)

In Class A so far here is how they are breaking down
103: 5 Forfeits= 13.8%
112-130: 16 Forfeits= 44.4% which is 11.1% per weight class
135-152: 9 Forfeits= 25% which is 6.25% per weight class
160-215: 5 Forfeits= 13.8% which is 3.5%
285: 1 Forfeit= 2.8%
So in Class A so far the lightest weights are the most difficult to fill and the empty weight classes DECREASE as you get higher in weight.

In Class B so far it goes like this
103: 5 Forfeits= 4.6%
112-130:= 29.4% which is 7.3% per weight class
135-152= 26.6% which is 6.7% per weight class
160-215= 32.1% which is 8% per weight class
285= 7.3%
So in class B 103 is the lowest forfeited weight and the remaining 13 weight classes are all within 1.3% of eachother.

Statewide:
103- 6.7%
112-130= 8% average
135-152= 6.4% average
160-215= 6.7% average
285= 6%
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby dtvman » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:11 am

Wonderful work Wombat. Your numbers bear out exactly what I was thinking. My thought is that there is no need to cut the numbers. Yeah there may be more cases of teams having to forfeit in duals. But ultimately wrestling is about individuals. Cutting the number of weight classes takes away opprotunities for individuals. The other issue is guys cutting weight . If you reduce the number of classes you create bigger gaps between the classes. Now instead of having to drop 5 pounds you may have someone trying to drop 10. Just because one school doesn't have someone to wrestle at 112 doesn't mean you should take away the chance for the other 25 schools that do have someone at that weight.
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby Hinsa » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:48 am

Wow! Great research Wombat! That's the kind of information that can help the NDHSAA make an educated decision on what to do with weight classes.

Thanks for putting some numbers behind your thoughts. My opinion about the higher weights would seem to be disproved. What I was basing it on is what I have seen in regional wrestling meets - it seemed to me like there are always more byes at heavyweight than anywhere else.
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:52 am

We've been to several A & B duals and tourneys this year already......most B seem to be having upper weight class fill issues and most A its the lower....however if you're Jamestown, Coach White said he doesn't have a wrestling team, he has a football team, 35 kids out for wrestling and 10 of them are HWT, the lightest weighing in at a meager 230.
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby greatplns » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:08 am

Awesome statistics Wombat. Really what this is all about. Educated thoughts with numbers to back it up.

I no longer live in ND, but in Kansas. My son wrestles here in a 4A school (HS enrollment of about 600-700). We also have a hard time filling all the weight classes with top notch wrestlers. Kansas does have a very active JV schedule and we still fill out our roster (2-3 weight classes) with JV wrestlers. I think the better the opponent is for these JV wrestlers the better they will become. I know it's hard for kids to lose, especially a lopsided loss, but if the fans and teammates support them, they know better days are ahead and will stay with the program. Every one of these kids pays their dues one way or another. I've seen duels won for a team because one of these JV wrestlers only gave up a major, or even a tech fall but didn't get pinned. His teammates treated him like he just won. Now that kid may not have won individually, but he helped his team, learned more than he ever would've at a lesser JV match and still feels good about himself and is encouraged to work even harder. Just my 2 cents, I realize things are tougher at the smaller schools, but I think it would be a shame to take these available spots away from your future great wrestlers.

Not sure how ND currently does it, but here in Kansas the kids have to do hydration testing. They weigh in the first day of practce, take a hydration test. This is their base weight. They are only allowed to drop 8% of their body weight based on the initial base weight. The second week of December they have to certify at their weight hydrated to be eligible to compete in that weight class the rest of the year. If they can't certify hydrated, they must move up in weight until the can certify hydrated. What I'm getting at is it could be very difficult for some kids to lose a whole lot of weight which is what would probably have to happen if some weight classes were cut. Sometimes you just have to take an open or give an open for the health and safety of the wrestlers.

Love this forum by the way. I'll be in SW ND next week, Does anyone know Hettinger's schedule? Thanks.
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby rep » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:49 am

greatplns wrote:Love this forum by the way. I'll be in SW ND next week, Does anyone know Hettinger's schedule? Thanks.


http://www.ndhsaa.com/sports/bwrestling ... BASKETBALL

if that doesn't take you right to the schedule, try this:
--go to http://www.ndhsaa.com
--click on athletics
--click on wrestling
--click on hettinger
-click on their schedule

not 100 percent positive if it is their complete schedule, but it looks pretty good.
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby greatplns » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:43 pm

Thanks for the info. Just what I was looking for.
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Re: Minnesota hs wrestling

Postby Wombat » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:02 am

Greatplns,

We have a very similar weight loss system in ND. The key differences that I can see is that this year we were eligible to do our hydration testing before the season started. The advantage of this was that our kids were able to become hydrated and then had an extra 2-3 weeks that they could lose weight and follow the system safely.

We don't have a limit to how much body fat a person can lose, like the 8% you talked about, but rather we have a minimum body fat% that anyone can be at which is 7%. That is considered the ideal optimum body fat percentage i guess. With parental consent a wrestler can go as low as 4%. Each wrestler is limited to how much weight they can lose per week. I believe the number we're at is 1.5% of their body weight in 1 week.

As far as the concerns that have been posted about kids having to lose more weight goes, under our new weight loss system no one can lose an unsafe amount of weight because it is monitored and regulated on a weekly basis. If the worry is that they cannot get down to the weight they want to wrestle at soon enough then it just comes down to being somewhat close to your desired weight going into the season. Even a middleweight (152 for example) could lose 2.3 pounds per week. And since you can take your test in October now that means you could be at about 135 before Christmas.
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