NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby NDPREP » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:29 am

Any thoughts on this?

http://www.ndhsaa.com/news/1449/ndhsaa- ... regulation

Basically boils down to regular season:
120 per day max
0-30 0 day rest
31-45 1 day rest
46-60 2 days rest
61-75 3 days rest
76-120 4 days rest

Tournament:
135 Max in tournament
Daily max of 120 still applies
0-45 0 days rest
46-90 1 day rest
91-120 2 day rest

So you throw an Ace pitcher 95 pitches 1st round of the state tournament he won't be returning to pitch the rest of the tournament. Which I agree with from a player health stand point.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby scc » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:40 am

The end of cinderella teams...
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby hook » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:26 pm

This will help the larger schools early on but I do think it will help make ND baseball better in the long run by forcing more kids into pitching and forcing coaches develop pitching. I think the numbers are a little overboard but I understand looking out for kids saftey. Personally I think they should let programs start a throwing regiment a month earlier than regular practice can start. One of the biggest reasons for kids getting hurt in ND spring ball is they are not ready for the workload they often see early in the season. Also make it mandatory for teams to get out of school early enough to make sure the kids get their arms and bodies properly warmed up. (some schools do a great job of that but some do not)
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby NDPokes » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:48 am

There is nothing that says players can't start a throwing (or hitting) program before regular practices start. Open gyms are for exactly that purpose. Coaches can't actively coach, as in a practice, but they can set up routines that are for the benefit of the athlete.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby ReadyToPlay » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:31 am

Sounds good until you get a cold wet regular season similar to a few years back when a lot of the eastern teams did not play until May 1, then going every other day to catch up. With this new pitch allotment, I also think that there will be a lot of high scoring games and longer games so you better have lights if there is to be a 2nd game into night fall. Some players who are now needed to pitch accurate that have not pitched before will tend to just toss it over the plate without great velocity to obtain a strike and the ball will go for a ride bringing in the walked batters created by the inexperience players that got thrown in the game to pitch by default. The coaches will be in a difficult position as they have to make decisions early if there is a 6 run, top of the 1st inning scenario, with 4 pitchers available, 3 games this week to go, yet still giving their team a chance to come back. I believe this rule has the best intentions for the player's arm, and the system counting of pitches may not be perfect, as sometimes you have cold distracted kids doing the books in regular season. Dare I say that a fool proof system would involve a 3 digit electronic display located near press box/or dugout with a dedicated person---- 49, 50, 51, 52,.... 121, etc. (The NDHSAA made the basketball 30 second clock display mandatory with a dedicated person)
If you are going to implement this kind of rule, you have to be able to display it accurately and fairly. I don't think this unit would have to incur a lot of expense, just a simple box displayed in proximity of a the press box with a Bluetooth remote control----thus no expensive wiring for schools as it does not have to be timed into a game clock. Pitches could be tallied in both books every inning (like the runs are) and displayed once again when that team comes back the next inning. $99 from Amazon..(3" High Character LED Counter 3 Digits LED Digital Counter Button Control with IR Remote Control)
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Wed May 31, 2017 9:25 am

NDPREP wrote:Any thoughts on this?

http://www.ndhsaa.com/news/1449/ndhsaa- ... regulation

Basically boils down to regular season:
120 per day max
0-30 0 day rest
31-45 1 day rest
46-60 2 days rest
61-75 3 days rest
76-120 4 days rest

Tournament:
135 Max in tournament
Daily max of 120 still applies
0-45 0 days rest
46-90 1 day rest
91-120 2 day rest

So you throw an Ace pitcher 95 pitches 1st round of the state tournament he won't be returning to pitch the rest of the tournament. Which I agree with from a player health stand point.


A couple of questions:
1. For the state tournament, will they use regular season or tournament rules? They used regular season rules in our regional tournament.
2. Did every region have the same pitching rules.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby hook » Wed May 31, 2017 11:09 am

1. They will use tournament rules.
2. all regions were to use the same pitching rules.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Wed May 31, 2017 11:43 am

hook wrote:1. They will use tournament rules.
2. all regions were to use the same pitching rules.


Thanks.

Using the regular season rules for the regional tournaments and then switching for state tournament has me confused. Especially since not all regional tournaments were scheduled for 3 consecutive days which changes the way the rules play out. If all teams used the same rules in the regional tournaments, then they should have had to have the same scheduling format and stuck with it even if there were rain delays, etc. 3 "consecutive" day tournaments using the regular season rules is definitely advantageous for certain teams. I do not get the flip-flopping.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby NDPREP » Wed May 31, 2017 11:59 am

The big reason is because the NDHSAA is really hands off with baseball, like has been stated in other threads there is no requirement for a region tournament even. Baseball brings in very limited money so the NDHSAA doesn't really want to be concerned with it, I know last year the B state tourney made about 10k after expenses, compared to basketball bringing in north of 100K.

I expect next year or the year after to all tournaments to have at least the same start date, same format may be a bit more difficult as some are single elimination until the championship and some are solid double elimination the whole way.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby LILchump » Wed May 31, 2017 7:38 pm

hook wrote:1. They will use tournament rules.
2. all regions were to use the same pitching rules.


State tournament is "Post Season Rules."
Region tournaments are all run differently. Because of that, some tournaments were 3 consecutive day tournaments. The post season rule applies to all tournaments that are 3 consecutive days (including play-in games). So, not all Region tournaments used the same pitch count rules. I looked at all Region tournaments and if I remember right only one or two regions fell under the 3 consecutive day rule for post season pitch counts.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby Flip » Wed May 31, 2017 11:18 pm

NDPREP wrote:The big reason is because the NDHSAA is really hands off with baseball, like has been stated in other threads there is no requirement for a region tournament even. Baseball brings in very limited money so the NDHSAA doesn't really want to be concerned with it, I know last year the B state tourney made about 10k after expenses, compared to basketball bringing in north of 100K.

I don't believe this for a second. How many activity state meets/tournaments make money?
In basketball district tournaments have different start/end dates. Same goes for region tournaments too.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:53 am

LILchump wrote:
hook wrote:1. They will use tournament rules.
2. all regions were to use the same pitching rules.


State tournament is "Post Season Rules."
Region tournaments are all run differently. Because of that, some tournaments were 3 consecutive day tournaments. The post season rule applies to all tournaments that are 3 consecutive days (including play-in games). So, not all Region tournaments used the same pitch count rules. I looked at all Region tournaments and if I remember right only one or two regions fell under the 3 consecutive day rule for post season pitch counts.


Not sure if I am reading this correctly but believe you are saying that some of the regional tournaments considered the "play in" games as part of the regional tournament? Because of this and the fact the games were played the prior week they then used regular season pitch count rules vs. "3-day tournament rules"? This makes it even more confusing since the "play in" games are just that, playing in to make the regional tournament and/or used for seeding purposes. Since that's the case, shouldn't be considered part of the tournament in the first place, because seeding isn't done yet.
My point is fairly simple (and don't care what the rule is): Institute a rule, make it consistent across the board and use it.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby NDPREP » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:37 am

As far as I am aware all play in games are considered part of the region tournaments, same as it used to be when innings were used, and all regions should have used regular season pitch count numbers. This does present pros and cons to regions who started tournaments earlier and had a weekend break vs some regions who started on the Monday of the last week. When it comes to baseball ALL teams make the regional tournament SO a play in game is part of the tournament.
**My mistake it appears maybe Region 3 & 4 were actual consecutive 3 day events**

This goes back to what I stated in another post NDHSAA is pretty hands off with baseball so every region has their own idea of what a tournament schedule is, the only thing the NDHSAA has is that every region needs to have a representative, not that a tournament is held. A Region could decide that a tournament is not held and the #1 seed just advances to state (this has almost happened before with rain outs and such)
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby B-oldtimer » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:29 pm

The pitch count is good idea for the safety of kids playing the game but I think like all safety measurers the numbers are where I have some problem. First there are differences in individuals on what there capabilities are and even with these numbers the pitch count may way to high for a lot of kids in the beginning of the season. Second what were conditions they were pitching in and how hard did the kid have to throw to get to that number of pitches. I know there has to be some where you draw the line but this is result of few coaches that did not do their job with policing how much there kids threw the ball.

Here in ND this pretty much has set up for larger class b schools having upper edge in going on to play in tournament baseball. For smaller class b schools its difficult to get enough pitching and to get quality pitching. Most of smaller schools have at best 14 to 17 kids playing ranging from 7 to 12 grade. Difficult to get 3 good pitchers out the mix let alone a staff of 5 to 6 kids to pitch. Also with short seasons here in ND its difficult to get kids built up to be able to pitch especially younger kids playing ball. So with just a few older kids pitching most teams will run out of pitching with these new rules in double elimination tournament. I Think that why we seen so many of teams here at state that came back with double elimination this year. I know that Park River, Rugby, and Carrington came back won there regions this way.

I Think maybe we need to look at structure of region tournament by eliminating or reducing the double elimination also make the tournament spread out over the week so smaller schools will have ability to have use of their top pitching for more than one game of the tournament. This would allow for smaller schools to have equal talent at pitching level for the final games because this is usually difference between larger and smaller schools is the the level of pitching in there 3 through 5 pitchers. These changes would help level the playing field for all the schools and would create playing field of where Cinderella teams would be possible for the state tournament and here again spread state tournament out extra day with waiver kid could pitch some extra inning like they do in legion baseball on one time basis.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:39 am

B-oldtimer wrote:
I Think maybe we need to look at structure of region tournament by eliminating or reducing the double elimination also make the tournament spread out over the week so smaller schools will have ability to have use of their top pitching for more than one game of the tournament.


Good post B-oldtimer. Addressing the above, if they simply followed the "tournament rule" pitch count in regionals, the rules would be fine. Still reducing pitch count for safety but gives a little leeway for smaller roster teams who rely on fewer pitchers. 2 cents.
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Re: NDHSAA Approves Pitch Count Restrictions

Postby boblee » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:05 pm

As noted, the state allows the regions to proceed how they wish for tournaments. Region 1 has the best 2-of-3 for the championship. They are all mash-ups. The concern with going 3 or 4 days is time away from school late in the school year and travel for schools, potentially. It is a spring sport talking point, especially in baseball and softball, every year.
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