Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

The teams in Class AAA

Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:50 pm

yep, my memory isn't what it used to be, but I was close!
hockeynut wrote:First home playoff game for Jamestown since 1994. That’s a long time folks but it took a move to AA to do it.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby heimer » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:15 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:I have a simple, yet radical idea.

Allow opting up or down by one class.

Heimer, you strike me as an open borders guy. What do you think?


First, stop suggesting outside the box, radical ideas. That's my job, and if you start doing it, I can't, and also because I work better pi$$ed at you than agreeing with you.

I like enrollment cutoffs, based on the current setup, because it makes more sense than just constantly flipping on how many teams belong in the top division. A brief history:

First year of 4 classes: 16 were the top, because, I guess, two 8-team regions, half make the playoffs, all the 1968 administrators can divide by 2 and 4, fine.

Belcourt drops out after Devils Lake threatened to sue over reverse discrimination due to NDHSAA automatically classing down the NA schools. Everyone in the EDC lost a game, and it was chaos to fill

Result: Now its no more than 12 in the top class, no opting up. Why, scheduling ease.

Free and reduced comes into play.

Result: 14, because, well, there are 7 in the west (Bis, Century, Mandan, Dickinson, Williston, Minot, Jamestown), but we can't have only 6 in the east (RR, Cent, South, North, Davies, WF), so we can now screw Devils Lake again to make numbers we can comprehend.

Now, it's 16. Why? Built two new schools, Shanley wants in, so we'll screw Jamestown.

The point: It's never been 16, or 12, or 14, or 16 because it was right. It's been that because it's convenient.

If we set the number at 500, we're stating that we believe you need that enrollment to compete at the top level, based on a comprehensive look at the state and what average teams bring to bear. I think 500 is a good line. You may like it elsewhere. Either way, setting a number says we believe in something that is based on actual science, not on what we can draw up to make 1968 administrator's head hurt less.

I don't disparage Class A or Class B people. I disparage anyone who believes they are educated on AAA football that hasn't seen a game at that level in 10 years, no matter what town they live in. You can dislike my style, I get it, it's abrasive. But I find it equally abrasive for Class B apologists to walk around beating themselves on the chest saying their level is God's gift to the state. Not all Class B people are apologists. But the ones that are are just as abrasive as I am, there are just far more of them than me. The athleticism on an average A team destroys the athleticism on an average B, and I see plenty of both.

But, Bisonguy06, I'll meet you halfway on this one. Your idea of opting down is intriguing, although I'm nowhere near an open borders guy (you don't listen from 12-3 enough).

I wouldn't embrace just opting down for only a school's reasons of convenience. But, if we could set some standard that would trigger the opt-down option to rebuild a program?

I'm just spitballing here, but lets say a combination of no playoff appearances for 5 consecutive years and a sub winning record at your class for 7 consecutive years? Or maybe it's a record based-combined with-participation based? Or maybe you factor free-and-reduced heavy schools in for an opt-down (the word in GF is that, had everyone at one of the middle schools in down actually filled out the paperwork for free and reduced, it would have been very close between Central and Jamestown)?

Maybe it's all of these thrown together, and then we say you're limited to one cycle, or three years, and cycle every three years, to rebuild the program.

I don't hate it. A "Program Distress" waiver?
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:28 pm

If we set the number at 500, we're stating that we believe you need that enrollment to compete at the top level, based on a comprehensive look at the state and what average teams bring to bear. I think 500 is a good line. You may like it elsewhere. Either way, setting a number says we believe in something that is based on actual science, not on what we can draw up to make 1968 administrator's head hurt less.

I've been saying similar on the other side of the spectrum. If you're enrollment is under XX level you can't be forced to play 11 man.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:41 pm

Heimer:

Three consecutive posts on the way.
1) An apology, of sorts
2) A story
3) A point-by-point discussion of ideas, based on their merits, which is what I've always wanted, though I've gone mudslinging many times.

1) An apology, of sorts: I know your politics well enough to think that "open borders" might get under your skin. I was trolling, and you didn't really take the bait. Good for you. And guess what - I think you and I would agree on politics more often than we would disagree. Isn't that scary?
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:55 pm

2) A story: My father-in-law is a good man, a simple man, and has a small cattle operation. He just turned 70. He's mildly interested in the local team. He asked where the local team would land in the next football plan, and I gave him the answer in full detail.

We have 11 man AAA, AA, A, and 9 man in North Dakota. Plans are drawn, two years at a time.

The starting point is male enrollment in grades 7-10, but then there's weighted male enrollment, based on students eligible for free and reduced meals.

In year one, schools are surveyed, divisions are drawn, enrollments and weighted enrollments are tracked.

There has been a strong preference for even numbers of teams in each division, for the sake of scheduling.

Co-ops form and dissolve for many reasons, but in some cases, to help the program land in the division most desired. (The school followed by my father-in-law has changed co-ops in recent years for this reason)

In year two, new weighted male enrollment 7-10 dictates division placement.

Some teams opt up by one division.

Teams are not allowed to opt down. A few would like to, but can't. Their alternative is to schedule independently and bow out of postseason competition.

Recently, some have gone this route.

There have also been teams that line up and compete as scheduled in year one of a plan, but bow out and schedule independently in year two.

Recently, some of the smallest, non-competitive 9 man programs have scheduled 6 man football independently. They play a mixture of North Dakota and Montana schools for an unofficial title.

I think my father-in-law ended the conversation more confused than he began it.

The moral of the story: I think the North Dakota football plan has been made too complicated for its own good, and could be made better by being made simpler.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:11 pm

3) Point by point discussion on the merits

How do we make football planning better and simpler? (Assuming that you're with me on this line of thinking)

I'm in favor of enrollment cutoffs.

I'm not married to divisions with even numbers. I'm content with enrollment cutoffs in places that make sense, and if we land on an odd number of teams in a division, so be it. AD's can solve that one.

I'm against all weighted multipliers and dividers. A boy is a boy, no matter where he enrolls.

Given that 'a boy is a boy' would result in some schools being non-competitive in their current placement, I'm in favor of opting up OR opting down by one division.

I'd start simple with my 'opt down' allowance: You have the option to 'opt down' if, in your current placement, you did not qualify for the playoffs at that level in the previous two year plan.

The results:

-4 divisions, based on male enrollment, with the possibility to opt up or down by one division.
-A plan that is easily explained
-Co-ops that make geographic sense
-Fewer schools and kids seen as undesirable co-op partners
-A few opt-ups
-A few opt-downs, highly unlikely to result in state championships at a lower level, but more likely to promote better competition. I believe the vast majority of schools would choose to stay put.

-----------------------------

Now, if you happen to think that divisions need even numbers of teams... If you think we need 5 divisions... if you think my opt-down parameters are too loose, or if you think 'opting down' isn't the American way... Bury the hatchet and make your case based on the merits.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:34 am

I agree with someone above saying the football plan has just gotten too complicated. I also think the system needs change because of the number of teams that have chosen to play independent due to where they are classified and being able to compete. I looked at SD and it seems their system is pretty cut and dry going by enrollment numbers and not a set amount of teams per division. If we modeled it after that it could go something like this.

AAA - 400 and above male enrollment - 14 current teams. If a team wants to opt up, great, play the division with an odd number of teams. It's not that hard.

AA - 100-400 male enrollment - 12 current teams. Again a good number of like size schools and competitive programs. If a team opts to AAA, don't replace them. Play the division with odd number teams again.

A - 65-100 enrollment - 27 current teams plus three of the same opt ups. 30 team division sounds about right. Here is where you get into some of the opt down possibilities, though. There are going to be some teams on the border that just can't make it in 11man so develop a system for them to play at 9man based on a set criteria.

9man - Everyone below 65. 39 current teams. 40 if you count FW because if they were allowed to stay 9man they would not be independent.

6man - Sanction the division and actually make it an option for all teams. Maybe not even set an enrollment, just use the opt-down criteria that is developed and go from there. Or just say if your enrollment is below 50 you have the option of either division, no questions asked.

If you feel 5 divisions is too much and it waters it down, SD has 7 divisions of football with no more than 28 in either division and only 9 in the top two division. It can be done. And I believe I even read they are adding 6man next year. Not sure if that will make 8 divisions or if they just drop one of the other to keep it at 7.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Wildcat » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:00 pm

I lived in South Dakota for a short while. Their system isn't perfect, and I think they're always trying to adjust it. Still many "haves and have nots."

South Dakota basically got tired of the semifinals always being the four Sioux Falls schools, so their longtime conference "ESD" essentially voted to have its own class. Aberdeen I think is the largest school in it. It's made up of schools from towns largely the size of Jamestown, Williston, Dickinson, etc. Before, we didn't really have enough schools to pull that off. I think we do now. At least to take a look at it anyways.

BisonGuy06 mentioned Fargo North is now smaller than Williston and Dickinson, which is true. I'm not sure how you'd justify it, but I think that's a problem Fargo has to deal with, in terms of its geographic boundaries to better balance Fargo.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby heimer » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:41 pm

Bisonguy06, cool stuff, and I can understand how the guy was confused. We've conditioned longtime ND fans to look for enrollment cutoffs as the answer. Explaining it to him probably glazed his eyes over.

As far as enrollment cutoffs, since a number of schools care more about bottom-up than top down, do this:

49-0, 50-99, 100-199, 200-500, 501 and up.

Here's what happens:

6-man: LaMoure-LM, Hankinson, Richland, FSHP, North Border, North Prairie, North Star, New Rockford-Sheyenne, Benson County?, St. John, Divide County, TGU, Trenton, Parshall-White Shield, Hettinger-Scranton, Grant County-Flasher, Kidder County, Beach, South Border, Napoleon-Gackle-Streeter, Strasburg-Zeeland, Minto/Midway, Center-Stanton, Alexander, Trinity Christian, Drake-Anamoose, Drayton, Mandaree

9-man: Standing Rock, Linton-HMB, Mott-Regent/New England, M-L-S, Lewis and Clark-North Shore, Surrey, Ray-Powers Lake, Underwood-Turtle Lake-Mercer-McClusky, Cavalier, Dunseith, Nelson County, Wyndmere-Lidgerwood, Griggs County Central-Midkota, Enderlin-Maple Valley, MPCG, FCT-Rosholt, Dickinson Trinity (unless opt up), Bowman County (unless opt up), Richardton-Taylor-Hebron, Shiloh Christian, New Salem-Almont, Killdeer, Washburn-Wilton-Wing, Heart River, South Prairie (unless opt up), Tioga, Kenmare-Bowbells, Velva, Minot Ryan, Nedrose, Des Lacs-Burlington, Garrison-Max, Westhhope-N-G, Harvey-Wells County, Bottineau, Langdon, Carrington, Park River-F-L, Rugby, Grafton, Oakes, Northwood-Hatton, Milnor-North Sargent, Thompson, Northern Cass, Ellendale-Edgeley-Kulm, Fargo Oak Grove, Lisbon, Hazen, Stanley

11-A: Beulah, Turtle Mountain, St. Marys, Watford City, Kindred, Hillsboro-Central Valley, Central Cass, Wahpeton, Valley City

11-AA: Devils Lake, Jamestown, Dickinson, Mandan, Fargo North, Red River, Fargo South,

11-AAA: West Fargo, Sheyenne, Davies, GF Central, Minot, Legacy, Century, Bismarck, Williston

Although this looks like it doesn't work, and maybe it doesn't, start here. Starts at the bottom and works up. These are the next year's plans numbers. You may see co-ops dissolve in this plan.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Sniper » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:57 pm

So it is unfair for Jamestown and Dickinson to have to be in the same class as the Bismarck and Fargo schools but it is fair for Surrey and Dunseith to be in the same class as Hazen, Dickinson Trinity, and Grafton?

Also most of the schools in the 6-man division would have no need to play 6-man because they are capable of fielding a 9-man team. You think Napoleon-Gackle-Streeter, Richland, and a ton of others would want to play 6-man? Strasburg-Zeeland has a very low number of boys (smallest school in 9-man for the next plan) and they did not opt for the 6-man route. I am not saying that I am against 6-man because any football is a better option than no football, but I think it should be a last resort and should not consist of teams that easily field a 9-man team.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:44 pm

I think we’d all agree that “opting down” just isn’t a good look.

Thus, Heimer has chosen to error on the low side with his enrollment cutoffs, thus erasing any desire to “opt down” and tempting many schools to “opt up.”

It’s a really smart approach. And folks, I’m not in the habit of praising Heimer.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:17 pm

I’ll add though, you need to pair it with this idea: schools signal their intent to opt up, big to small, one week at a time.

The biggest red flag that I saw was St. Mary’s sitting in 11 man ‘A’. If I am a school drawn into 9 man that has always played 11 man, I’m not thrilled to see St. Mary’s waiting for me if I opt up. I think the Saints would want to play up a division, but I want to see them make their move first before I make my own.

So... Who else wants into AAA? Going once, going twice…

Next, who wants into AA?

And so on.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby magic man » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:58 am

How did I miss this thread?

Couple of notes:
Sniper - "What I would really like to see is a rule in place where schools without borders must play one class above where their enrollment places them."

Hmmm. I wonder what schools he's talking about there? Just say what you mean, no one is tricked by the slick way of saying it.

Bisonguy - "I'm against all weighted multipliers and dividers. A boy is a boy, no matter where he enrolls."
Music to my ears. I agree with the majority of what you are saying here, especially the last comments regarding the opting up, and the "11 Man A, St Mary's" situation.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Sniper » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:24 am

magic man wrote:How did I miss this thread?

Couple of notes:
Sniper - "What I would really like to see is a rule in place where schools without borders must play one class above where their enrollment places them."

Hmmm. I wonder what schools he's talking about there? Just say what you mean, no one is tricked by the slick way of saying it.

Bisonguy - "I'm against all weighted multipliers and dividers. A boy is a boy, no matter where he enrolls."
Music to my ears. I agree with the majority of what you are saying here, especially the last comments regarding the opting up, and the "11 Man A, St Mary's" situation.


Exactly how was I trying to "trick" anyone by saying schools without borders instead of saying private schools? It literally means the same thing. I have been very vocal on this site about my opinion of schools without borders (private schools) playing in the lowest class.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:35 am

No matter which way you slice it with any plan, I believe the underlined teams all belong in the top class no matter what. They are all similar in size and located in the largest cities in the state. I don't care how much anyone argues, 400 boys can compete with 550 boys. Bolded teams are also all very similar and I believe belong in the same class. Only possible exception is HCV since it is a coop. Right now their program would compete fine in AA as they did in the past, but will it be able to sustain due to being a coop I don't know. Hillsboro should continue to grow I would expect and align well with the other cities listed.

11-A: Beulah, Turtle Mountain, St. Marys, Watford City, Kindred, Hillsboro-Central Valley, Central Cass, Wahpeton, Valley City, Shanley

11-AA: Devils Lake, Jamestown, Dickinson, Mandan, Fargo North, Red River, Fargo South,

11-AAA: West Fargo, Sheyenne, Davies, GF Central, Minot, Legacy, Century, Bismarck, Williston
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:02 pm

Interestingly, it's a couple of the Red River Valley schools headed toward a male enrollment of 400 boys, while Williston/Dickinson are headed toward 550+, keeping them in AAA despite struggling in the recent past.

Shanley may continue to 'opt up' into that AAA.

I basically agree that in the end, this is what I'd want the top two divisions to look like. Good discussion on how to get there.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Wildcat » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:03 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:No matter which way you slice it with any plan, I believe the underlined teams all belong in the top class no matter what. They are all similar in size and located in the largest cities in the state. I don't care how much anyone argues, 400 boys can compete with 550 boys. Bolded teams are also all very similar and I believe belong in the same class. Only possible exception is HCV since it is a coop. Right now their program would compete fine in AA as they did in the past, but will it be able to sustain due to being a coop I don't know. Hillsboro should continue to grow I would expect and align well with the other cities listed.

11-A: Beulah, Turtle Mountain, St. Marys, Watford City, Kindred, Hillsboro-Central Valley, Central Cass, Wahpeton, Valley City, Shanley

11-AA: Devils Lake, Jamestown, Dickinson, Mandan, Fargo North, Red River, Fargo South,

11-AAA: West Fargo, Sheyenne, Davies, GF Central, Minot, Legacy, Century, Bismarck, Williston



Completely agree with this. All those schools would be fine in the same division.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby heimer » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:45 pm

Why?

Because you've been conditioned to believe that enrollment is everything, and there is nothing more?

Look at the AAA playoffs this year. After three Bismarck schools, there was room for one more team, typically taken up by Minot. It went to Mandan, and they were dispatched quickly. Dickinson, Williston, and now Jamestown, won't get a sniff.

The East is the same. Fargo, Fargo, Fargo, West Fargo. If not those schools, the other West Fargo. Shanley may, or may not, be a factor.

AAA football is broken. You can't even get quality regular season games.

The average margin of victory in a AAA game this year, was 23.73. Twelve of 63 games were decided by single digits, and, in the other 51 games, the average margin of victory was 28.07.

I'm guessing the other classes of football would produce similar numbers. I'll get the number on the non-playoff teams later tonight, but we have to start asking ourselves if we actually want a good regular season, or just good playoff games. I'd rather see kids play 6 or 7 meaningful games, rather than 2 and 7 slaughters, on either side of the ball.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby realmagicmike » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:18 pm

Code: Select all
[code][code][code]Because you've been conditioned to believe that enrollment is everything, and there is nothing more?

Look at the AAA playoffs this year.  After three Bismarck schools, there was room for one more team, typically taken up by Minot.  It went to Mandan, and they were dispatched quickly.  Dickinson, Williston, and now Jamestown, won't get a sniff.

The East is the same.  Fargo, Fargo, Fargo, West Fargo.  If not those schools, the other West Fargo.  Shanley may, or may not, be a factor.
[b]
AAA football is broken.  You can't even get quality regular season games.[/b] 

The average margin of victory in a AAA game this year, was 23.73.  Twelve of 63 games were decided by single digits, and, in the other 51 games, the average margin of victory was 28.07.

I'm guessing the other classes of football would produce similar numbers.  I'll get the number on the non-playoff teams later tonight, but we have to start asking ourselves if we actually want a good regular season, or just good playoff games.  I'd rather see kids play 6 or 7 meaningful games, rather than 2 and 7 slaughters, on either side of the ball.[/quote][/code][/code][/code]



It is like that for every sport. If girls swimming was scored like football Century would win every week 100 to 0. It will be that way for years to come.

To me when people say schools with out borders, I think of the Bismarck public schools, not the private schools. They do not enforce the transfer with in the district rule at all. All of the Shiloh kids that are playing varsity /jv now, went to Shiloh since at least the 5th grade. St. Mary's have lost kids to the public schools, but nobody is transferring to play for them. The programs that are affiliated with club sports are the worst, Century wrestling might be the only program that doesn't have a kid that should be going to another high school.
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