Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

The teams in Class AAA

Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby heimer » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:06 pm

So, the state is pretty well screwed in a few years.

West Fargo 3 will be complete in 2021, just in time for the new realignment (not this one, but the next one).

This will create 17 teams in a 16 team division.

What to do, what to do......

The obvious answer would be to let Jamestown go back down. Problem is, that will leave 9 teams in Fargo, West Fargo, and Grand Forks, and only 7 out west.

Since our fine friends on the committees love balance, someone has to be a west team. So, which one of the West Fargo schools wants to be in the west region?

Anyone? Anyone?

Knowing that that option doesn't work, here are some Karlie solutions. Which do you think is the most likely?

1) St Marys opts up. After two years of wrecking a Shanleyless AA, maybe there will be an NDSU level of embarrassment around having zero competition at their current level, and join the east Catholics at the apex. This is the most likely solution, and the Saints will have new digs, and playing the Big 3 in the Capital might me the marketing push needed to fill the new desks.

This, of course, absolutely screws Jamestown, penalizing the Blue Jays until Minot 2 comes to fruition.

2) Minot 2 actually happens. Next most likely solution. Word is since the voters actually care about property taxes in the Magic City, the school district has to come up with a plan they can pay for without voter approval. That idea is to remodel the 9-10 grade building and make it a full high school. Only a rumor and probably more than two years out, so not likely.

By the way, this completely screws Jamestown also, unless both one and two happen.

3) Shanley quits quick. The Deacons give it the ole college try, and quickly figure out what Kevin Feeney knew: you can work really hard, get that bottom seed, and go get drilled in the first round.

In this scenario, one from each side goes down, and all is well, until Minot 2 happens, putting, like a Mandan, Dickinson, or Williston AA (I haven't checked their numbers). That will be a bunch of fun.

4) The state figures it out. 16 teams, statewide conference, 10 games, 6 you don't play in a nine-game season, with all teams making the playoffs, QRF determined seeds.

This is as likely as NDSU fielding a hockey team or Minnesota voting for Trump. This state doesn't like change, doesn't like QRF, and 16 at 1 in the opening round is probably not a winner.

5) Smaller top class, 5 classes. If Jesus comes back tomorrow, this will happen. Makes the most sense, so of course, won't happen.

Two years. Count it down.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:03 am

There are always bubble teams. Jamestown will indeed be a bubble team in the next plan. Neither Jamestown, nor any other school, is entitled to be the largest school in the division of its choosing.

With schools opting to play six man, we already have five divisions.

Co-ops will form, dissolve, realign. Schools will signal an intent to opt up, to play independent schedules, or to play six man.

Oil will fluctuate. Enrollment will fluctuate. Participation will fluctuate.

The polar ice caps might freeze, the ocean might engulf the Red River Valley, or Yellowstone might blow its top.

The final resting place for AAA football will fall anywhere between 14 and 18 teams, I think. Jamestown might be up or might be down.

It’s way, way too early to say that the sky is falling in Jamestown. But of course, that’s what you do best.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:09 am

PS: Let’s now assume the status quo everywhere. I would be very content with this:

Jamestown, Dickinson, Williston, St. Mary’s, Watford City and Belcourt as 2A west
Wahpeton, Valley City, Devils Lake, Central Cass, Grafton and Kindred as 2A east

Of course, actual enrollment numbers would dictate that. I am pulling names off the top of my head, but that would be pretty close.

A 14 team AAA would have an east/west problem that could be solved. I’d put the seven Fargo schools in one league and the other seven in the other league. I think Shanley would opt in to that.

That took me 15 minutes and half a cup of coffee. I think the sky is no longer falling. What say you, Heimer?
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Class B » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:55 am

We need a complete revamp of the 4 class system as we currently know it. We need to go back to A, B-11 and B-9. heck you can leave it a 4 class system if you want to include B-6, but I don't believe the 6-man division is very sustainable at this point.

Expand the A (current AAA) to include the top 4-5 or 6 current AA schools and put the bottom 4-7 teams in the B-11 division. (Most of the bottom half of AA schools in next year's realignment is coming from the current A division this year - so competitively it's nothing new). This will help with the east/west alignments when you add St. Mary's, Watford City, Devils Lake, TMCHS to the west lineup.

I personally believe the 4 class system as we currently know it has run it's course. Spoke with a few folks out of Stanley who are scared of what moving back to AA is going to do to their program. I'm not saying enrollment numbers are becoming irrelevant, but it's grip is lessening as being a primary factor to determine equality.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:02 am

Notice that Stanley might be back in ‘A’ in my plan. Ditto Beulah and Hazen. AA football would be almost entirely schools that play class ‘A’ basketball.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:44 pm

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 2037412028

My 'status quo' was not accurate... Williston and Dickinson have outgrown North/South/Red River at the top.
At the bottom, Beulah and Hillsboro outrank Grafton and Kindred in numbers.

We're getting ahead of ourselves. That was my starting point, then I put a lot of wasted time and effort into the numbers, and I ended up right back where I started. We're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's look at some new numbers in the fall of 2019 and we can debate until the cows come home.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby bingobangobongo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:20 pm

Nice work, Bisonguy06.

Strasburg/Zeeland has an adjusted enrollment of 17 boys. I wonder if they will keep on in 9-man, or join up with Linton/HMB or maybe Ashley/Wishek. Co-op with Linton/HMB would make them a Class A.

Also, it makes me wonder what the heck is going on with Midway/Minto with their 45 boys and why they can't field a 9-man team. Same with Larimore/Emerado with 71 boys and why they can't field an 11 man team.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby The Schwab » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:40 pm

bingobangobongo wrote:Nice work, Bisonguy06.

Strasburg/Zeeland has an adjusted enrollment of 17 boys. I wonder if they will keep on in 9-man, or join up with Linton/HMB or maybe Ashley/Wishek. Co-op with Linton/HMB would make them a Class A.

Also, it makes me wonder what the heck is going on with Midway/Minto with their 45 boys and why they can't field a 9-man team. Same with Larimore/Emerado with 71 boys and why they can't field an 11 man team.


I don't believe there is any love between Strasburg and Linton so I really don't think those two would ever co-op
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Class B » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:06 pm

bingobangobongo wrote:Nice work, Bisonguy06.

Strasburg/Zeeland has an adjusted enrollment of 17 boys. I wonder if they will keep on in 9-man, or join up with Linton/HMB or maybe Ashley/Wishek. Co-op with Linton/HMB would make them a Class A.

Also, it makes me wonder what the heck is going on with Midway/Minto with their 45 boys and why they can't field a 9-man team. Same with Larimore/Emerado with 71 boys and why they can't field an 11 man team.


Don't forget Garrison... and their inability to field an 11 man Varsity team this year.

Sort of like what I mentioned in my previous post, enrollment is quickly not becoming the do all and end all.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby heimer » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:14 pm

First of all, to class B, no offense, but I doubt you've seen a class 3A game in a long long time. Tell me what schools at double-a you think should move up? You're already getting Jamestown and Shanley, Bismarck St Mary's is the only other logical choice. You think Devils Lake can play up there, Turtle Mountain, Valley City, Central Cass, none of those teams can play up there. I've never understood the willingness to simply add teams to a class to make yourself feel good, and that's exactly what you're doing. How about classes with teams that can actually compete with one another, instead of sacrificial Lambs every single freaking year?

Fargo, Bismarck, and Minot football, along with West Fargo, should be their own League. There doesn't need to be anybody else in that League, no matter what the enrollment shows. They have proven to be A Cut Above, and they should be their own class. Go from there. Five classes is the answer not three. You must be from a Class B school that thinks that 1968 basketball is the best thing you ever saw.

Speaking of 1968 basketball being the best thing anyone ever saw, that's where bizon guy comes into this conversation. Typical. Same thing over and over again. No new classes no new competition level. Just do it the way we've always done, that makes the most sense. Yeah right. Your shameless endorsing of six-man football, which is a complete and utter joke, by the way, is ridiculous, and is not football. Maybe, when your school gets too small, we can play 3 on 3 basketball, and take it out past the half line, just so that your school can keep its identity, and put that on television. Boy that will sell.

I actually talk to three a coaches. They see this coming, and they know that it's going to be a major adjustment. I agree with bizon guy on one thing, the sky isn't falling, and I might embellish my remarks at the start of this thread just for a little bit of effect. But it's only two years away, and when's the last time the ndhsaa made a good decision with only two years notice?
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby heimer » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:21 pm

Set the number at 500 and up, 200 to 499, and then figure out the rest below that. You'd end up with 2 8-team divisions up on top, assuming Grand Forks Central cuts the co-op with Manvel, which they probably should do. That's a better-looking football set of divisions, even if there's only 8 teams in the top two classes.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby The Schwab » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:59 pm

Heimer, I do agree with you that there are "Haves" and "Have Nots" when it comes to football. I'm one of those "class B people". I'm a small school guy, always have been. I don't like seeing teams be at the bottom of their classes year after year. Many times on this website it has been brought up that other sports need three classes and constantly we are told "quit whining, get in the gym, get better". The same argument could be brought up for football IMO. I have no problem with having another class of football, but if we are going to make a class of 8 (we already have one of 10) in football, there is no way to possibly rationalize having a class with 110+ teams in it for all other sports.

As far as 6 man football, go watch a game (preferably in Montana where they've played for a long time), see the excitement. It may not be "football" in some peoples opinions, but it gets a community excited and allows students to wear their own school colors and not be part of yet another co-op. It allows for less seat-time on buses going back and forth to and from practice. Anything that allows us to have more kids playing and more communities with excitement for sports is a good thing.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:20 pm

heimer wrote:First of all, to class B, no offense, but I doubt you've seen a class 3A game in a long long time. Tell me what schools at double-a you think should move up? You're already getting Jamestown and Shanley, Bismarck St Mary's is the only other logical choice. You think Devils Lake can play up there, Turtle Mountain, Valley City, Central Cass, none of those teams can play up there. I've never understood the willingness to simply add teams to a class to make yourself feel good, and that's exactly what you're doing. How about classes with teams that can actually compete with one another, instead of sacrificial Lambs every single freaking year?

Fargo, Bismarck, and Minot football, along with West Fargo, should be their own League. There doesn't need to be anybody else in that League, no matter what the enrollment shows. They have proven to be A Cut Above, and they should be their own class. Go from there. Five classes is the answer not three. You must be from a Class B school that thinks that 1968 basketball is the best thing you ever saw.

Speaking of 1968 basketball being the best thing anyone ever saw, that's where bizon guy comes into this conversation. Typical. Same thing over and over again. No new classes no new competition level. Just do it the way we've always done, that makes the most sense. Yeah right. Your shameless endorsing of six-man football, which is a complete and utter joke, by the way, is ridiculous, and is not football. Maybe, when your school gets too small, we can play 3 on 3 basketball, and take it out past the half line, just so that your school can keep its identity, and put that on television. Boy that will sell.

I actually talk to three a coaches. They see this coming, and they know that it's going to be a major adjustment. I agree with bizon guy on one thing, the sky isn't falling, and I might embellish my remarks at the start of this thread just for a little bit of effect. But it's only two years away, and when's the last time the ndhsaa made a good decision with only two years notice?


The guy disparages the small school crowd, then wonders why they don’t support his ideas.

I am a graduate of a 3A football school and am well connected to those in the know. Your personal attacks and presumptions are laughably inaccurate.

We actually agree on shrinking the top two classes of football right now, we just happen to disagree on the magnitude of the change.

What I shamelessly endorse is the free market. If a handful of schools want to play six man football independently, good for them. Even if it’s not my cup of tea.

I also shamelessly endorse the use of the best available information to make decisions. We don’t know who will be north and south of 500, north and south of 200 in enrollment for the football plan that begins the year 2021. Your 2021 plan makes some gigantic assumptions that we shouldn’t be making.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:26 pm

I have a simple, yet radical idea.

Allow opting up or down by one class.

Heimer, you strike me as an open borders guy. What do you think?
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Sniper » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:39 am

IMO some schools are just in an awkward position with enrollment where they are significantly bigger than the "class b" schools but also do not have the numbers to compete with the Bismarck and Fargo schools each year. Jamestown is a perfect example of this. I would not agree with creating a whole new class just to help out a few schools. I would not be against a five class system but I would rather see them split up the 9-man or "A" division rather than create an 8 team class consisting of the smallest AAA and biggest AA schools. What I would really like to see is a rule in place where schools without borders must play one class above where their enrollment places them.

Also each time they redo the alignments some schools are going to get the short end of the stick. When Jamestown is moved up to AAA they get the short end of the stick, but on the other side of that when they get to play AA they need to take advantage of being the "big dog", which I have not really see them do the past two years.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Sniper » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:06 am

Sniper wrote:IMO some schools are just in an awkward position with enrollment where they are significantly bigger than the "class b" schools but also do not have the numbers to compete with the Bismarck and Fargo schools each year. Jamestown is a perfect example of this. I would not agree with creating a whole new class just to help out a few schools. I would not be against a five class system but I would rather see them split up the 9-man or "A" division rather than create an 8 team class consisting of the smallest AAA and biggest AA schools. What I would really like to see is a rule in place where schools without borders must play one class above where their enrollment places them.

Also each time they redo the alignments some schools are going to get the short end of the stick. When Jamestown is moved up to AAA they get the short end of the stick, but on the other side of that when they get to play AA they need to take advantage of being the "big dog", which I have not really seen them do the past two years.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Wildcat » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:52 am

Sniper wrote:Also each time they redo the alignments some schools are going to get the short end of the stick. When Jamestown is moved up to AAA they get the short end of the stick, but on the other side of that when they get to play AA they need to take advantage of being the "big dog", which I have not really see them do the past two years.


This is mainly right about either being the little fish or the big dog. I'd ask though, what constitutes taking advantage of being in AA? They're 13-7 with two trips to the playoffs.

If they were to go to the state title game twice, it would be said that they don't belong in AA, and they're too big and dominant. They're in the semis this year after being upset last year in the quarters.

I would argue the evidence points to Jamestown, competitively, being right where they should be. Look at the enrollments of Williston, Dickinson and Mandan as well as those cities' populations...Jamestown isn't the same size as they are anymore. It's tough for many people to see that.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Class B » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:13 pm

heimer wrote:First of all, to class B, no offense, but I doubt you've seen a class 3A game in a long long time. Tell me what schools at double-a you think should move up? You're already getting Jamestown and Shanley, Bismarck St Mary's is the only other logical choice. You think Devils Lake can play up there, Turtle Mountain, Valley City, Central Cass, none of those teams can play up there. I've never understood the willingness to simply add teams to a class to make yourself feel good, and that's exactly what you're doing. How about classes with teams that can actually compete with one another, instead of sacrificial Lambs every single freaking year?

Fargo, Bismarck, and Minot football, along with West Fargo, should be their own League. There doesn't need to be anybody else in that League, no matter what the enrollment shows. They have proven to be A Cut Above, and they should be their own class. Go from there. Five classes is the answer not three. You must be from a Class B school that thinks that 1968 basketball is the best thing you ever saw.

Speaking of 1968 basketball being the best thing anyone ever saw, that's where bizon guy comes into this conversation. Typical. Same thing over and over again. No new classes no new competition level. Just do it the way we've always done, that makes the most sense. Yeah right. Your shameless endorsing of six-man football, which is a complete and utter joke, by the way, is ridiculous, and is not football. Maybe, when your school gets too small, we can play 3 on 3 basketball, and take it out past the half line, just so that your school can keep its identity, and put that on television. Boy that will sell.

I actually talk to three a coaches. They see this coming, and they know that it's going to be a major adjustment. I agree with bizon guy on one thing, the sky isn't falling, and I might embellish my remarks at the start of this thread just for a little bit of effect. But it's only two years away, and when's the last time the ndhsaa made a good decision with only two years notice?


I am very familiar with football at all levels. But if you want to create a class for all levels of competition and demographics, why stop at 4-5 classes? Surely there should be a special class for private schools, oil schools, schools with 4 day weeks, schools in counties starting with "Mc", etc.

Interesting note about 1968 basketball. In 1963 there were 300+ teams playing basketball in North Dakota. If you know your history, there were 3 classes at the time. The consensus in 1963 was that there was no need for 3 classes for that amount of teams and they adopted the 2 class system as we currently know it. There have been multiple attempts to go back to 3 classes but it has not gained support to date. Today we are sitting at 128 BBB teams in North Dakota with two classes, but there continues to be a push for 3, and with less than 40% support.

How did we get to a world where 3 classes was too much for 300 teams but 2 classes is too few for 128 teams?
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby The Schwab » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:31 pm

Class B wrote:
heimer wrote:First of all, to class B, no offense, but I doubt you've seen a class 3A game in a long long time. Tell me what schools at double-a you think should move up? You're already getting Jamestown and Shanley, Bismarck St Mary's is the only other logical choice. You think Devils Lake can play up there, Turtle Mountain, Valley City, Central Cass, none of those teams can play up there. I've never understood the willingness to simply add teams to a class to make yourself feel good, and that's exactly what you're doing. How about classes with teams that can actually compete with one another, instead of sacrificial Lambs every single freaking year?

Fargo, Bismarck, and Minot football, along with West Fargo, should be their own League. There doesn't need to be anybody else in that League, no matter what the enrollment shows. They have proven to be A Cut Above, and they should be their own class. Go from there. Five classes is the answer not three. You must be from a Class B school that thinks that 1968 basketball is the best thing you ever saw.

Speaking of 1968 basketball being the best thing anyone ever saw, that's where bizon guy comes into this conversation. Typical. Same thing over and over again. No new classes no new competition level. Just do it the way we've always done, that makes the most sense. Yeah right. Your shameless endorsing of six-man football, which is a complete and utter joke, by the way, is ridiculous, and is not football. Maybe, when your school gets too small, we can play 3 on 3 basketball, and take it out past the half line, just so that your school can keep its identity, and put that on television. Boy that will sell.

I actually talk to three a coaches. They see this coming, and they know that it's going to be a major adjustment. I agree with bizon guy on one thing, the sky isn't falling, and I might embellish my remarks at the start of this thread just for a little bit of effect. But it's only two years away, and when's the last time the ndhsaa made a good decision with only two years notice?


I am very familiar with football at all levels. But if you want to create a class for all levels of competition and demographics, why stop at 4-5 classes? Surely there should be a special class for private schools, oil schools, schools with 4 day weeks, schools in counties starting with "Mc", etc.

Interesting note about 1968 basketball. In 1963 there were 300+ teams playing basketball in North Dakota. If you know your history, there were 3 classes at the time. The consensus in 1963 was that there was no need for 3 classes for that amount of teams and they adopted the 2 class system as we currently know it. There have been multiple attempts to go back to 3 classes but it has not gained support to date. Today we are sitting at 128 BBB teams in North Dakota with two classes, but there continues to be a push for 3, and with less than 40% support.

How did we get to a world where 3 classes was too much for 300 teams but 2 classes is too few for 128 teams?


Honestly? I bet in 1963 there were hundreds of towns with less than 50 kids in their high schools competing against like sized schools. Class B has been dominated by the larger schools and the schools without defined borders for quite a while. And yes I'm aware of schools like North Star and their success, those are the exceptions not the rule.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:37 pm

Interesting and slightly shocking note: things are slightly different than they were in 1968.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Sniper » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:52 pm

Wildcat wrote:
Sniper wrote:Also each time they redo the alignments some schools are going to get the short end of the stick. When Jamestown is moved up to AAA they get the short end of the stick, but on the other side of that when they get to play AA they need to take advantage of being the "big dog", which I have not really see them do the past two years.


This is mainly right about either being the little fish or the big dog. I'd ask though, what constitutes taking advantage of being in AA? They're 13-7 with two trips to the playoffs.

If they were to go to the state title game twice, it would be said that they don't belong in AA, and they're too big and dominant. They're in the semis this year after being upset last year in the quarters.

I would argue the evidence points to Jamestown, competitively, being right where they should be. Look at the enrollments of Williston, Dickinson and Mandan as well as those cities' populations...Jamestown isn't the same size as they are anymore. It's tough for many people to see that.


6/10 teams in AA make the playoffs in the current format so that is not overly impressive. I think making the championship game would have been taking advantage of it (could still this year). But the upset last year was rough considering it was probably their best bet at winning a playoff game in recent memory.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:59 pm

Sniper wrote:6/10 teams in AA make the playoffs in the current format so that is not overly impressive. I think making the championship game would have been taking advantage of it (could still this year). But the upset last year was rough considering it was probably their best bet at winning a playoff game in recent memory.

Someone posted that it was the first time Jamestown had the playoffs since the early 90s.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Class B » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:04 pm

Flip wrote:Interesting and slightly shocking note: things are slightly different than they were in 1968.


Obviously there was a little facetiousness with the 1960s context of the conversation.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Sniper » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:36 pm

Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:6/10 teams in AA make the playoffs in the current format so that is not overly impressive. I think making the championship game would have been taking advantage of it (could still this year). But the upset last year was rough considering it was probably their best bet at winning a playoff game in recent memory.

Someone posted that it was the first time Jamestown had the playoffs since the early 90s.


Since 2000 they have made the playoffs in: 2013, 2007, 2003, 2000. Also lost play-in games in 2005, 2006, 2008.
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Re: Come on Jamestown, take one for the team

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:45 pm

Sniper wrote:Since 2000 they have made the playoffs in: 2013, 2007, 2003, 2000. Also lost play-in games in 2005, 2006, 2008.

OK, I either misread or received incorrect information.
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