Time to seed?

[heimer]

I'm not trying to rewrite the rules here, so don't start with that crap.

I've heard from some football enthusiasts that they were unhappy with the bracketing in the 9-man playoffs. Specifically, this artificial "east vs west" title game corralled the top four-ranked teams to eliminate each other before the title game.

Now, one can make the argument they will eliminate each other anyway. No biggie. I'm cool with it.

But, home field should mean something better than what year it is, some would argue, and I think that argument is a good argument as well.

So, I am attempting to obtain the QRF formula from the MN side, but I messed around with some numbers today. I'll explain below, but it's worth noting that my numbers are probably missing a factor, based on how the "seeds" would have turned out.

Here's the formula I used: Wins X 6 + (Wins by higher class team beaten X 1) - (Number of lower class teams beaten X 1) + (Average margin of victory - points allowed per game) = QRF.

Basically, you get six points for a win. If you beat someone in a higher class (Richland beat Kindred) you get an extra point for every team that team beat by the end of YOUR regular season (Kindred was 3-5 at the cutoff). No one played anyone in a lower class, so that doesn't apply.

Then, I capped the margin of victory at 15 points per contest, and you got 0 if you lost, then divided that by the number of games played. I then added up the total number of points allowed and divided that by the number of games played. I subtracted the average points allowed per game from the average margin of victory, and added that number to total, and that was your QRF.

In this process, I messed up one team. I haven't had time to correct it, but it's down the list anyway.

I applied these numbers to all the regional champions and runners-up. Here's what I came up with:

1. Richland 52.375
2. Thompson 50.875
3. North Prairie 50.825
4. Shiloh 45.5
5. Mohall 40.625
6. Hankinson 38.375
7. Linton 37.5
8. Cavalier 36.5
9. TGU 35.375
10. Hettinger 19.75
11. Mott 12.5
12. Divide County 11

That's half the field.

I seeded the teams 1-12, based on this rating. Then, I filled in the bracket. Top 8 seeds got the byes. In the games below the top 8 seeds, I used geographical matchups to keep travel at a minimum (example, Richland gets a bye. In that half of the bracket, the tiebreaker went 1-3-2, so 2's #4 played 3's #3 to advance and get Richland). When I got those brackets filled, I used a draw of what was left, based on seeding and not matching regional opponents. So, TGU got a remaining 4 seed, as did Hettinger, and Mott and Divide County got the remaining 3 seeds.

Here is how it finished:

Richland-bye

North Border at Strasburg-Zeeland

Tioga at TGU

Cavalier-bye

Mohall-bye

New Salem-Glen Ullin at Divide Co.

Wyndmere-Lidgerwood at New Rockford-Sheyenne

Shiloh-bye

North Prairie-bye

Richardton-Taylor-Hebron at Kenmare-Bowbells-Burke Central

St. John at Mott

Hankinson-bye

Linton-bye

Drake-Anamoose at Hettinger

Napoleon-GS at LaMoure LM

Thompson-bye

To project the tournament, just on seeds:

Richland vs. Strasburg-Zeeland

TGU at Cavalier

Divide County at Mohall-L-S

New Rockford-Sheyenne at Shiloh

Kenmare-Bowbells-Burke at North Prairie

Mott at Hankinson

Hettinger at Linton

LaMoure at Thompson

3rd round:

Cavalier at Richland

Mohall at Shiloh

Hankinson at North Prairie

Linton at Thompson

4th round

Shiloh at Richland

North Prairie at Thompson

5th round

Thompson at Richland

Again, very unscientific and done in just spare time.

The questions are: are any of the projected matchups worth a change? Do we need an east-west format? And, with Richland already beating Thompson and playing Shiloh this week, will the state title game have already been played by next Friday?

[heimer]

Ryan from minnesota-scores was good enough to send me the pre-playoff QRF for the 24 schools that made the playoffs.

I will be posting these possibilities separately, so we can see the methods involved. They go from easiest, but least likely to pass (pure QRF seeding), to most complicated but most likely to pass (seed some, use geography to limit travel and keep regional opponents away from each other as long as possible).

The first was actually done by Ryan. These would have been the first round matchups, with the progressive results based on seeding only based on the QRF ratings at the end of the year:

#1 Richland-bye
#17 North Border at #16 Richardton
#24 Drake-Anamoose at #9 Hettinger
#8 M-L-S-bye

#5 Linton-bye
#21 Divide County at #12 Mott
#20 Napoleon at #13 LaMoure
#4 North Prairie-Bye

#2 Shiloh-bye
#18 New Salem at #15 New Rockford
#23 St. John at #10 TGU
#7 Cavalier-bye

#6 Hankinson-bye
#22 Wyndmere at #11 Strasburg-Zeeland
#19 Tioga at #14 Kenmare
#3 Thompson-bye

second round

#16 Richardton at #1 Richland
#9 Hettinger at #8 MLS

#12 Mott at #5 Linton
#13 LaMoure at #4 North Prairie

#15 NR-S at #2 Shiloh
#10 TGU at #7 Cavalier

#11 Strasburg at #6 Hankinson
#14 Kenmare at #3 Thompson

third round

#8 MLS at #1 Richland
#5 Linton at #4 North Prairie

#7 Cavalier at #2 Shiloh
#6 Hankinson at #3 Thompson

semifinals

#4 North Prairie at #1 Richland
#3 Thompson at #2 Shiloh

Finals

#2 Shiloh at #1 Richland

[heimer]

This scenario rewards the teams that finished as either regional champs or runners-up with a seed. It makes the regular season relevant for more than just the 8 teams that got byes.

There was one big change in this scenario. Divide County moves from a 21 seed to a 12 seed, displacing Strasburg from the top half of the bracket. Mott moves from 12 to 11, and a number of teams lose a place down to the 22 seed.

#1 Richland-bye
#17 R-T-H at #16 NR-S
#24 Drake-Anamoose at #9 Hettinger
#8 MLS-bye

#5 Linton-bye
#21 Napoleon at #12 Divide County
#20 Tioga at #13 Strasburg-Zeeland
#4 North Prairie-bye

#2 Shiloh-bye
#18 North Border at #15 Kenmare
#23 St. John at #10 TGU
#7 Cavalier-bye

#6 Hankinson-bye
#22 Wyndmere at #11 Mott-Regent
#19 New Salem at #14 LaMoure
#3 Thompson-bye

second round:

#16 NR-S at #1 Richland
#9 Hettinger at #8 MLS
#20 Napoleon (QRF) at #5 Linton
#13 Strasburg at #4 North Prairie

#15 Kenmare at #2 Shiloh
#10 TGU at #7 Cavalier
#11 Mott at #6 Hankinson
#14 LaMoure at #3 Thompson

Third round

third round

#8 MLS at #1 Richland
#5 Linton at #4 North Prairie

#7 Cavalier at #2 Shiloh
#6 Hankinson at #3 Thompson

semifinals

#4 North Prairie at #1 Richland
#3 Thompson at #2 Shiloh

Finals

#2 Shiloh at #1 Richland

[Run4Fun2009]

It is interesting stuff and I do agree State FB playoffs should be seeded in some way...be it like SD does with seed points or the QRF (or a version of it).

[The Schwab]

I would be in favor of whole state seeding for all classes of North Dakota football. South Dakota does it, I believe Montana does it as well. The one thing I like that South Dakota (16 team playoff) does is their first round games are within the region (1 vs. 4, 2 vs. 3) and then after that they seed the final 8. They play their quarterfinals on a Monday night, so that leads to some long trips on a school night (ex. Harding County hosted De Smet, and De Smet SD is 350 miles from Buffalo SD). So if they can rationalize having kids travel that far on a school night, I think we could do it on a weekend.

[heimer]

Finally, this one is confusing, but likely the one that coaches and admins would like the best, as it takes all of our useless North Dakota touchy-feeley issues into consideration.

Seed the 12 champs and runners up based on QRF.
Limit travel as much as possible in first and second rounds, keeping adjacent matchups in the current east-west format.
Stay away from same region opponents matching up as long as possible.

So, to explain:

#1 Richland gets a bye. The adjacent matchup will be made of teams within the current east-west format. As Richland is a Region I team, the adjacent matchup will be a matchup of a Region II and Region III team. As Richland is the overall #1 seed, the adjacent matchup will be the two fourth-place teams available from Region II and Region III. QRF is used to choose who hosts.

So:

#1 Richland-bye
#20 Napoleon-GS at #17 North Border

Now, jump the other side of the bracket. #2 Shiloh and #3 Thompson are each from the east half. To limit travel, the adjacent matchups will absorb the rest of the third and fourth place teams from Regions I, II, and III, as all of the first and second place teams received seeds. Shiloh cannot play a team from Region III in the first round, so:

#2 Shiloh-bye
#22 Wyndmere-Lidgerwood at #15 New Rockford-Sheyenne

#3 Thompson-bye
#13 LaMoure at #11 Strasburg-Zeeland

Back to the front. #4 North Prairie is from Region 4. They will get the winner of the fourth-place teams from Region 5 and Region 6, so:

#4 North Prairie-bye
#19 Tioga at #16 R-T-H

At this points, all of the completely empty brackets have been filled. The rest of the brackets either have a bye in them (5-8 seeds) or have one seeded team (9-12) waiting for a single opponent.

The highest seed left waiting for an opponent is Hettinger-Scranton as the #9 seed. Hettinger is from Region V. They can play a team from Region IV or Region VI. The fourth-place team from region VI is already in a matchup (Tioga), so the most favorable matchup following the geographic rules is:

#24 Drake-Anamoose at #9 Hettinger

At this point, there are three teams left that do not have a bracket position. They are St. John (IV), Kenmare (VI), and New Salem (V). TGU is the #10 seed and from Region IV. They can't play St. John. As the #10 seed, they should draw the lowest QRF still remaining and possible, so,

#18 New Salem at #10 TGU.

#11 is Mott-Regent, from Region V. They can play either Kenmare or St. John. Kenmare and Divide County, the other team left in the bracket, are from the same region, so:

#23 St. John at #12 Divide County

And finally:

#14 Kenmare at #11 Mott-Regent.

So, entire tournament:

#1 Richland-bye
#20 Napoleon at #17 North Border
#24 Drake-Anamoose at #9 Hettinger-Scranton
#8 MLS-bye

#5 Linton-bye
#23 St. John at #12 Divide County
#19 Tioga at #16 R-T-H
#4 North Prairie-bye

#2 Shiloh-bye
#22 Wyndmere at #15 NR-Sheyenne
#18 New Salem at #10 TGU
#7 Cavalier-bye

#6 Hankinson-bye
#14 Kenmare at #11 Mott-Regent
#13 LaMoure at #11 Strasburg-Zeeland
#3 Thompson-bye

second round

#17 North Border at #1 Richland
#9 Hettinger at #8 MLS
#14 Kenmare at #5 Linton
#16 R-T-H at #4 North Prairie

#15 NR-S at #2 Shiloh
#10 TGU at #7 Cavalier
#11 Mott at #6 Hankinson
#11 Strasburg at #3 Thompson

third round

third round

#8 MLS at #1 Richland
#5 Linton at #4 North Prairie

#7 Cavalier at #2 Shiloh
#6 Hankinson at #3 Thompson

semifinals

#4 North Prairie at #1 Richland
#3 Thompson at #2 Shiloh

Finals

#2 Shiloh at #1 Richland

[lovwatchingsports]

every time I see "we need to seed" I think that your team lost and you didn't think it fair. To be state champ you need to bet everybody, no matter what order they come. "well we could have maybe played in the finals" yes maybe but you still lost to that team. And NDHSAA pays for travel. If they pull that because you want teams to run all over the state how many schools need that extra cost. Right now I'm pulling for Rolla to run the tables just because you would seed them low.

[Run4Fun2009]

#11 is Mott-Regent, from Region V. They can play either Kenmare or St. John. St. John has the lower QRF, so:

#23 St. John at #11 Mott Regent

And finally:

#14 Kenmare at #12 Divide County.

Heimer, you have a slight snag here...Kenmare & Divide County are from the same Region. So therefore, I'd guess SJ & Kenmare would switch.

I totally like the idea and couldn't care less which system the state would use...seeding should be considered.

[heimer]

I'm glad you lovewatchingsports.

Too bad you don't lovetoreadbeforeblathering

Read the first post. The reason for this thread is to discuss IF, not WHY, seeding is necessary.

I think I articulated arguments for and against in the very first post, including your argument against.

I have no dog in this fight. I'll see you in Carrington this weekend.

However, I will say that I'm a proponent of seeding for the reasons of making a regular season worth it. Without seeding, it's a tough sell as to why two teams with identical records and the same regional seed play in a certain spot instead of the other. Is it okay to just live with some coin flip determining home field advantage? I say no.

Notice that, had seeding been in place this year, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING would be different. Richland would still be the #1 overall seed, and still would be hosting everything. Seeding explains it. Coin flips don't.

Run, good catch. You're an admin, so edit the post if you'd like. If not, I'll try.

[lovwatchingsports]

I'm glad you lovewatchingsports.

Too bad you don't lovetoreadbeforeblathering

Read the first post. The reason for this thread is to discuss IF, not WHY, seeding is necessary.

I think I articulated arguments for and against in the very first post, including your argument against.

I have no dog in this fight. I'll see you in Carrington this weekend.

However, I will say that I'm a proponent of seeding for the reasons of making a regular season worth it. Without seeding, it's a tough sell as to why two teams with identical records and the same regional seed play in a certain spot instead of the other. Is it okay to just live with some coin flip determining home field advantage? I say no.

Notice that, had seeding been in place this year, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING would be different. Richland would still be the #1 overall seed, and still would be hosting everything. Seeding explains it. Coin flips don't.

Run, good catch. You're an admin, so edit the post if you'd like. If not, I'll try.

IMO it is not necessary and will never happen so why? Why bring it up? Something to rant about? So I should be able to rant also.

[Run4Fun2009]

I'm glad you lovewatchingsports.

Too bad you don't lovetoreadbeforeblathering

Read the first post. The reason for this thread is to discuss IF, not WHY, seeding is necessary.

I think I articulated arguments for and against in the very first post, including your argument against.

I have no dog in this fight. I'll see you in Carrington this weekend.

However, I will say that I'm a proponent of seeding for the reasons of making a regular season worth it. Without seeding, it's a tough sell as to why two teams with identical records and the same regional seed play in a certain spot instead of the other. Is it okay to just live with some coin flip determining home field advantage? I say no.

Notice that, had seeding been in place this year, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING would be different. Richland would still be the #1 overall seed, and still would be hosting everything. Seeding explains it. Coin flips don't.

Run, good catch. You're an admin, so edit the post if you'd like. If not, I'll try.

IMO it is not necessary and will never happen so why? Why bring it up? Something to rant about? So I should be able to rant also.

actually I think we are moving in the direction of seeding...we do it already now for Basketball, Volleyball & Baseball...Football is just around the corner (just more kinks and things to work out). No, we won't be seeding next year or anything like that, but I think it may be something that does happen in maybe 5 years.

[heimer]

A prominent 9-man coach told me today that most coaches are now in favor of seeding and that geography no longer is a concern.

I'd say were closer than 5 years.

[lovwatchingsports]

Still do not like it. It favors teams closer to the big towns and get the write-ups or high lights on the sports. But if it happens it happens.

[Run4Fun2009]

Still do not like it. It favors teams closer to the big towns and get the write-ups or high lights on the sports. But if it happens it happens.

how does it favor schools closer to big towns?

If they seed, they'll have to use a formula to do so (much like the QRF or SD's seed points)...as we've noticed the QRF still favors the small town Richland. Its a qualitative ranking formula...and seeds will be determined from that.

[heimer]

Yeah, we hate big towns.

Unless they are Bismarck or Minot. (B shot shot)

The QRF at the end of the year had Strasburg as #11. They finished third in their region and are nowhere near a big town, yet they finished ahead of two regional runners-up.

And, if you have to beat them all anyway, your beloved North Prairie would play Richland this week.

Maybe you don't like seeding because your west teams wouldn't coast to a title game.

The east has been an absolute meatgrinder. Not nearly the case in the west.

[bulldog_power]

Maybe the championship doesn't have to be east vs west.
Perhaps split the state opposite

[caserace0710]

If they seed, they'll have to use a formula to do so (much like the QRF or SD's seed points)...as we've noticed the QRF still favors the small town Richland. Its a qualitative ranking formula...and seeds will be determined from that.

If I were to seed and use a playoff format, I'd use the Michigan (MHSAA) playoff system with playoff points for seeding (my playoff format based on this is farther down the page). The playoff point system in the MHSAA goes as follows:
80 points for a win over a Class A team, 64 points for a win over a Class B team, 48 for a win over a Class C team, 32 for a win over a Class D team, and no points for a loss. They also have bonus points where for a win each team gets 8 * Opponent wins (the 8 is called the multiplier). A loss results in Opponent Wins - 1. To get the total playoff points for each game, you would take the number of playoff points + (bonus points / number of games the opponent played). Add that total up for the whole season and divide it by the number of games the team played to get that teams playoff points. All playoff point values are taken to the thousandth (3 numbers after the decimal point).

So to modify it using North Dakota football classes, I would use:

• 80 points for a win over a Class AAA team
• 64 points for a win over a Class AA team
• 48 points for a win over a Class A team
• 32 points for a win over a 9-man team
• 16 points for a win over a JV or Independent team (updated)
• 0 points for a loss

All games would be factored in and not just region games. Out of state schools would use an equivalent (i.e.: all SD 9-man would be 9-man, SD 11B would be Class A, MT 11A would be Class AA, etc...). Also only games during that classes regular season window would count toward the playoff point calculation (i.e.: Kindred's first 7 games would only count toward Richland's playoff point calculation or Lemmon's first six games would count for Hettinger/Scranton, GC/Flasher, and Bowman County).

So for example, Hankinson defeated Mott-Regent in Week 1. Hankinson finished 7-1 and Mott-Regent finished 5-2. Hankinson earned 32 points and 5.714 bonus points for a total of 37.714 playoff points for that game. Meanwhile, Mott-Regent earned 0 points and 0.750 bonus points for a total of 0.750 playoff points for that game. Here's the mathematical breakdown:
Hankinson: 32 + ((5 * 8 )/7) = 37.714. The 32 represents a win over a 9-man opponent, the 5 represents the number of wins M-R had during the season, the 8 is the bonus point multiplier for a win, and 7 is the number of games M-R played during the season.
Mott-Regent: 0 + ((6 * 1)/8) = 0.750. M-R received 0 points for the loss, 6 represents the bonus points for the loss (7 wins minus 1), the 1 is the bonus point multiplier for a loss, and 8 is the number of game Hankinson played during the season.
Do that for every game throughout the season and take the average of the points earned and add that to the number of bonus points to get that teams total playoff points. So for Hankinson finishing 7-1, they averaged 28 points ((32*7)/8) and had 24.589 bonus points for a total playoff point value of 52.589.

You can do this game-by-game throughout the season and not just at the end of the season.

Finally, for my playoff proposal . With the current system in place, here is what I would do for 9-man:

• Two super regions (SR's) would be created with Regions 1-3 being the East SR while Regions 4-6 would be the West SR for seeding purposes
• The top 3 teams out of each region would automatically qualify based on region record (9 per SR)
• The final three teams in each SR would be wildcards and determined by playoff points regardless of what region they are in
• If three or more teams have the same record in the region, playoff points would be used instead of point differential to break the tie (H2H would still be the first criteria)
• If two teams in the same region are tied in playoff points then the same criteria would be used as the one being used currently
• If two or more teams from different regions are tied in playoff points then the tiebreaker would go as follows:
  
  1. Head-to-head record
  2. Region finish
  3. Opponent Win % (Strength of Schedule)
  4. Region Opp Win % (Region SOS)
  5. Coin flip
• Region champions would automatically get 1st round byes
• The top non-region champion in each SR based on playoff points would get the other remaining bye
• All teams within their SR would be seeded 1-12 with the 1-4 seeds going to the teams who achieved a 1st round bye
• Home field advantage is determined by the higher playoff point value
• Teams from the same region CAN play each other in the 1st round
• The first two rounds are played within the SR
• After the second round, the remaining eight teams are re-seeded 1-8 regardless of SR based on playoff points

In this system, Central McLean would've made the playoffs over Wyndmere/Lidgerwood in the East (28.625 to 26.875) and Trenton/Trinity Christian would've made it over Drake-Anamoose in the West (18.250 to 17.625). So here is how my system would've worked this season:

East Super Region
Team (Record, PlayPts)
#1 Richland (8-0, 64.429)
#2 Shiloh Christian (8-0, 63.000)
#3 Thompson (8-0, 53.000)
#4 Linton/HMB (7-1, 52.875)*
#5 Cavalier (7-1, 52.875)
#6 Hankinson (7-1, 52.589)
#7 Strasburg/Zeeland (6-2, 40.625)
#8 LaMoure/Litchville-Marion (6-2, 39.625)
#9 New Rockford-Sheyenne (5-3, 34.500)
#10 North Border (5-3, 34.125) - Wildcard
#11 Napoleon/Gackle-Streeter (4-4, 29.500) - Wildcard
#12 Central McLean (4-4, 28.625) - Wildcard
* - Linton/HMB won tiebreaker over Cavalier based on Region Opp Win % (.482 to .479)

West Super Region
#1 North Prairie (8-0, 59.000)
#2 Mohall-Lansford-Sherwood (7-1, 50.750)
#3 TGU (7-1, 47.875)
#4 Hettinger/Scranton (6-2, 45.000)
#5 Mott-Regent (5-2, 39.518)
#6 Richardton-Taylor/Hebron (5-3, 36.107)
#7 Divide County (5-3, 34.000)
#8 Kenmare/Bowbells/BC (5-3, 33.625)*
#9 Tioga (5-3, 33.625) - Wildcard
#10 New Salem/Glen Ullin (5-3, 30.000) - Wildcard
#11 St. John (4-4, 26.875)
#12 Trenton/Trinity Christian (3-5, 18.250) - Wildcard
* - Kenmare wins tiebreaker over Tioga based on H2H victory

Projected/Actual winners in bold
1st Round
#9E New Rockford-Sheyenne @ #8E LaMoure/Litchville-Marion
#12E Central McLean @ #5E Cavalier
#11E Napoleon/Gackle-Streeter @ #6E Hankinson
#10E North Border @ #7E Strasburg/Zeeland

#9W Tioga @ #8W Kenmare/Bowbells/Burke Central
#12W Trenton/Trinity Christian @ #5W Mott-Regent
#11W St. John @ #6W Richardton-Taylor/Hebron
#10W New Salem/Glen Ullin @ #7W Divide County

2nd Round
#8E LaMoure/Litchville-Marion @ #1E Richland
#5E Cavalier @ #4E Linton/HMB
#6E Hankinson @ #3E Thompson
#7E Strasburg/Zeeland @ #2E Shiloh Christian

#8W Kenmare/Bowbells/Burke Central @ #1W North Prairie
#5W Mott-Regent @ #4W Hettinger/Scranton
#6W Richardton-Taylor/Hebron @ #3W TGU
#10W New Salem/Glen Ullin @ #2W Mohall-Lansford-Sherwood

Quarterfinals
Note: ALL teams are re-seeded based on playoff points
G1: #8 New Salem/Glen Ullin @ #1 Richland
G2: #5 Cavalier @ #4 Thompson
G3: #6 Hettinger/Scranton @ #3 North Prairie
G4: #7 Richardton-Taylor/Hebron @ #2 Shiloh Christian

After this, bracket continues on as normal...

Lots to digest. Let me know if you have questions on the playoff points. This sounds very confusing, but after getting the hang of it then it is pretty easy to understand. It would be a great formula to use for seeding playoffs here in ND and easy to make in a Google Doc or Excel document to track each teams progress.

This system also benefits teams who play in a tough region with playoff berths over teams who don't deserve to go because they finished in the top 4 in their region. This system could also be used without super regions and seed the whole tournament 1-24 and still have the top 3 in each region auto-qualify and the six wildcards being from any part of the state.

So that is how I would make the playoff system for 9-man at least. I would do it similar in all the 11-man divisions. But I'll save that for another day.

[spartan11]

that is alot to digest, but makes alot of sense. I also like heimers plan of action. I just think the way we are doing it has to many flaws. And im sure these systems would encounter flaws but to me it seems like they would be fewer and farther between. thanks for the examples heimer and case race

[lovwatchingsports]

Still do not like it. It favors teams closer to the big towns and get the write-ups or high lights on the sports. But if it happens it happens.

how does it favor schools closer to big towns?

If they seed, they'll have to use a formula to do so (much like the QRF or SD's seed points)...as we've noticed the QRF still favors the small town Richland. Its a qualitative ranking formula...and seeds will be determined from that.

If they use that, big if. BB VB the eight coaches vote but can not vote for yourself. Who you going to vote for teams that you have heard something about.

[RedDirtFan]

I think seeding could be useful but to go by any kind of system that takes scores into account is flawed because some regions will be tougher than others every year, and the best team in the state could very well be a team that played several close games as opposed to somebody who demolished a weaker region. There's just no way to do it at the 9-man and class A levels in North Dakota where so few people get a chance to see a majority of the good teams from any given year.

[heimer]

There are plenty of good ways to do it, as illustrated above.

Incorporate a coaches poll with some of the above ideas, and it's a top shelf system.

There is no will to move away from guaranteeing the west east matchup. That's the problem.

If Richland and Park River both win big, it's time to start talking about it.

[B-oldtimer]

Park River wins big it has nothing to do with seeding because they have dominated class A all season long and would have been one of the top teams in Class AA this year. Also if Richland wins big been no difference there either because North Prairie has dominated other side of the bracket and Richland has pretty much dominated this side of the bracket. It would appear that maybe for 9 man with imperfect system it still is going to be at least Two of the better teams in 9 man football. The Class A is whole another can of worms in my opinion as I have expressed in past for at least half of the schools they should have been with other AA schools and other half down with 9 man schools. What I see is that double A is made up similar schools with exception of Fargo Shanley Bismarck St. Marys, Whapeton, and on the fringe with Grafton and Beluah and the top half of A would be compete very well with these other schools. The problem in North Dakota is we have Fargo Shanley, Bismarck ST, Marys, Whapeton, and Devils lake schools that don't fit they are to small for upper class and to big for bottom class. But getting back to seeding I don't like it and leads to many other problems like teams trying to improve how they are rated so we get run up on scores etc. We have already start seeing this in other sports and I don't believe this what we want to be teaching or having our kids participating in. Nothing will be perfect and somebody is always going having more difficult road than they thought should have.