Random posts/questions/discussion thread

The teams in 9 Man

Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Flip » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:45 pm

Like the title says, if you something random you'd like to say where there won't/shouldn't be much discussion please post it here instead of making a new thread. Other low content posts are welcome too.

I'll start. My prediction for the first poll.

1. Wyndmere/Lidgerwood
2. North Star
3. Cavalier
4. Divide County
5. Hillsboro

RV: Napoleon, South Border, Shiloh, random region 3 team
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:30 am

Poll Prediction:

1. North Star
2. Divide County
3. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood
4. Cavalier
5. Napoleon-GS
RV: Shiloh Christian, H-CV, L-A-E
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:02 am

High school rules are changing all the time and would like to stay current on them. So many times watching a game, people think NFL rules and high school rules are the same. Would like an official or someone knowing the rules to give the official ruling for the following:
1. Pass interference: In high school, pass interference can be called even if it is uncatchable, correct? What is the penalty yardage for holding down field and pass interference? Are either automatic first downs?
2. Personal foul or unsportsmanlike: This one I am not sure how to ask, so will give the scenario. QB was caught behind the line of scrimmage on a scramble, but was taken down by the facemask/helmet. First, a facemask penalty can be called for grabbing inside the helmet anywhere, not just the facemask, correct? Second, when the yardage was being marked off, it was from the point of the foul. The fifteen? yard penalty given did not put the ball past the first down marker, therefore became 3rd down. Asked the side official and he said something about an unsportsmanlike penalty not being an automatic first down. Could someone explain personal fouls vs. unsportsmanlike, yardages, down situation, where it assessed from, etc.
3. Muffed punt: On a muffed punt reception, the ball cannot be advanced by the recovering (punting) team, correct? Also, if a muffed punt reception rolls into the endzone, it is a touchback, correct? Even if recovered by the punting team.
Thank you.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:05 am

I'll take a stab at some of these just for discussion purposes. I haven't been certified for about 5 years now.

1. Pass interference cannot be called if uncatchable ball is deemed by the officials. Defensive holding can, though. I believe holding is 10 yards from the line of scrimmage and not an auto 1st down (both different from the NFL). Pass interference is 15 yards from the line and also not an auto 1st down (again, both different from the NFL).

2. Any personal foul should be an automatic 1st down. I'm not 100% sure on yardage for unsportsmanlike, but I believe if a player gets unsportsmanlike penalty they have to sit out at least one play. An unsportsmanlike penalty should not be called dealing with a facemask, though. It's either an inadvertant facemask or a personal foul facemask, but I think some things may have changed with this ruling in the past few years.

3. A muffed punt can be advanced by the kicking team and if it rolls in the endzone and recovered it is a touchdown. A muffed kickoff cannot be advanced and if it goes into the endzone it is an automatic touchback.

I believe I'm fairly accurate on these calls, but again its been 5 years without reading through the handbook and I know the NFS has made a few changes.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby scc » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:14 am

Top 5 prediction:
Wyndmere-Lidgerwood
North Star
Divide County
Cavalier
South Border
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Flip » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:25 pm

ndlionsfan -
OK, I have have never been certified fwiw, but
#1 I don't think there is such thing as uncatchable in HS.
#2 are you making a suggestion or stating that as what you think the rule is?
#3 I thought just the opposite. A muffed punt can't be advanced and a kick could.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:00 pm

Flip wrote:ndlionsfan -
OK, I have have never been certified fwiw, but
#1 I don't think there is such thing as uncatchable in HS.
#2 are you making a suggestion or stating that as what you think the rule is?
#3 I thought just the opposite. A muffed punt can't be advanced and a kick could.


Found a 2011 NFHS rulebook and looked some of these up.

#1 there is no mention of uncatchable ball so I believe you're right on that one and that one is miscalled quite a bit then. Pass Int penalty is 15yds and auto 1st down.

#2 HS still has the 5yd and 15yd facemask. It is also a facemask if grabbing any part of the helmet opening. 5yds is incidental, personal foul is called for grasping and is 15yds, but not an auto 1st down. Unsportsmanlike conduct doesn't fall under this category and should not be called associated with a facemask. 1st unsportsmanlike is 15 yds, no auto 1st down (I still think ND added a rule about sitting out a play) and 2nd is the same penalty with a DQ.

#3 A scrimmage kick (punt) can be advanced by the kicking team after 1st touch by the receiving team. Free kick (kickoff) cannot be.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:29 pm

After doing some research:
1. Don't think it matters in high school if it is catchable or not. Pass interference can be called.
2. Think NDlions is right on the yardage, etc. Also, believe the mouth guard strap was added this year as part of the facemask. Question: What about inside the back or side of the helmet? Not a facemask but maybe unsportsmanlike? That was what happened in the origional scenario. Player was tackled by the defensive player getting his hand inside the back of his helmet and dragging him down.
3. I don't think a muffed punt can be advanced nor can it be recovered for a td. But still not sure.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:36 pm

Anything inside the helmet opening is a facemask, whether its the chinstrap, earguard, top, etc. I think the underside of the back of the helmet would be classified under the horsecollar tackle. Still just a personal foul and nothing with unsportsmanlike. Read up a lot on unsportsmanlike and that only is called for swearing, kicking/throwing the ball after the play is over, touching a ref, etc.

We're still in disagreement with #3 I see. One place in the rule book I read is seemed pretty clear that the K team can advanced a muffed punt, obviously not one that wasn't caught. But then in another area it wasn't quite so clear and I read it over and over a few times. All the rule books are confusing in how they are written. Maybe someone else will clear it up for us.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:14 am

Asked a very experienced official these questions last night. The answers:

2. Rule 9-4-3
No player or nonplayer shall:
h. Grasp an opponent’s face mask, any edge of a helmet opening, chin strap, or a tooth and mouth protector attached to the face mask.
It could be a 5 or 15 yard penalty.

3. A muffed punt or kickoff can not be advanced by the kicking team. Once it crosses the goal line it is a touchback since punts and kickoffs can not be brought out of the end zone in HS FB.
2-13-4
ART. 4 . . . Force is not a factor:
a. On kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby FortheLoveoftheGame » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:09 pm

Misconceptions about HS FB -

Misconception
Uncatchable pass negates pass interference
The Truth
Not in HS FB. This is a college-pro rule


Misconception
Out of the pocket (Tackle box) – Allow to throw the ball away
The Truth
Not is HS – intentional grounding can be anywhere


Misconception
Try (Ex pt) attempt can be run back by the defense for points
The Truth
Only in college – the ball is dead in HS once the defense gets it


Misconception
Pass interference penalized at the spot of the foul
The Truth
In HS it’s from previous spot, 15 yds if on the D and Automatic 1st down, 15yds & loss of down if on the O


Misconception
The linemen left to soon on a punt – they must wait until the punt is away
The Truth
No restrictions in HS FB


Misconception
Linemen can report to the officials to be eligible
The Truth
Players are eligible only if they are not wearing # between 50-79 & they are on the end of the line or off the line – No reporting (11 man)


Misconception
4th down forward fumble returns to where the ball came loose
The Truth
Only in college – Ball is spotted where it becomes dead in HS


Misconception
Receivers need to have 2 feet down inbounds
The Truth
Only 1 foot in HS (and college)


Misconception
Automatic 1st down for a personal foul
The Truth
Only Defensive pass inference and the three roughings (kicking, snapper, QB)are awarded 1st downs automatically


Misconception
Ball is spotted where the missed FG was snapped or held
The Truth
FG is treated like any other scrimmage kick. It is spotted on the 20 if it goes into the End zone or it is spotted where the ball becomes dead
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:49 am

FortheLoveoftheGame wrote:Misconceptions about HS FB -

Misconception
Out of the pocket (Tackle box) – Allow to throw the ball away
The Truth
Not is HS – intentional grounding can be anywhere

Misconception
Receivers need to have 2 feet down inbounds
The Truth
Only 1 foot in HS (and college)


Great post. Very informational. Have a couple of questions:
1. What are the rules on intentional grounding in HS? If I am not mistaken, was thinking the ball had to go past the line of scrimmage and/or there has to be an eligible receiver in the vicinity.
2. Can a receiver in HS be forced out while in the air and the official can deem they would have came down in bounds? Or does the player always have to get 1 foot in, no matter what?
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Flip » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:12 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
Great post. Very informational. Have a couple of questions:
1. What are the rules on intentional grounding in HS? If I am not mistaken, was thinking the ball had to go past the line of scrimmage and/or there has to be an eligible receiver in the vicinity.

It can't be "and/or" just "or."
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:43 pm

Flip wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
Great post. Very informational. Have a couple of questions:
1. What are the rules on intentional grounding in HS? If I am not mistaken, was thinking the ball had to go past the line of scrimmage and/or there has to be an eligible receiver in the vicinity.

It can't be "and/or" just "or."


That was the reason for the question. Can a HS qb throw the ball away by simply throwing it past the line of scrimmage? Or does a receiver have to be in the area as well? That would explain the "and/or". If the play was a designed screen or something behind the line of scrimmage, then of course it would be "or". Thank you.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Flip » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:50 pm

Bad last post by me, I'm confused reading it.

It doesn't have to go past the LOS just as long as it is in the vicinity of a receiver. If it had to be both then an incomplete screen pass would be be intentional grounding as the pass didn't go past the LOS.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:57 pm

I understand your first post now. The rule has nothing to do with the line of scrimmage, only that there needs to be a receiver in the vicinity, correct?
Therefore, a qb in high school is not allowed to take a step back and ground the ball to stop the clock like the NFL, correct? Also, whether or not they are being "pursued" makes no difference? That is where I was confused from past explanations. Was thinking that it made a difference if the qb was being "pursued". Thought as long as they were not being chased, they could kill the clock or get rid of the ball by throwing to an open spot or out of bounds, past the line of scrimmage.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby FortheLoveoftheGame » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:38 pm

Rule 7-5-2

ART. 2 . . . An illegal forward pass is a foul. Illegal forward passes include:

a. A pass after team possession has changed during the down.

b. A pass from beyond the neutral zone.

c. A second or subsequent forward pass thrown during a down.

d. A pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver.

e. A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time.


EXCEPTION: It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Flip » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:30 am

1. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood (8) 3-0 56
2. North Star (4) 3-0 50
3. Divide County 3-0 27
4. Cavalier (1) 2-0 26
5. Napoleon-GS (1) 3-0 19

Rank the teams in terms of greatest chance to go undefeated in the regular season. My picks.
1. Cavalier, might be the best team in the state and I feel pretty confident they are head and shoulders above the rest of region 2.
2. Divide County, basically a guess on my part, but I feel like region 4 is pretty weak
3. North Star, a lot like Cavalier, but maybe not as balanced as Cavalier.
4. WL, I'm not sold they're the best team in the state and they have the toughest schedule of the ranked teams, besides Napoleon.
5. Napoleon
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:14 pm

Flip wrote:1. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood (8) 3-0 56
2. North Star (4) 3-0 50
3. Divide County 3-0 27
4. Cavalier (1) 2-0 26
5. Napoleon-GS (1) 3-0 19

Rank the teams in terms of greatest chance to go undefeated in the regular season. My picks.
1. Cavalier, might be the best team in the state and I feel pretty confident they are head and shoulders above the rest of region 2.
2. Divide County, basically a guess on my part, but I feel like region 4 is pretty weak
3. North Star, a lot like Cavalier, but maybe not as balanced as Cavalier.
4. WL, I'm not sold they're the best team in the state and they have the toughest schedule of the ranked teams, besides Napoleon.
5. Napoleon


1. North Star
2. Divide County
3. Cavalier
4. W-L
5. Napoleon
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:59 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:1. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood (8) 3-0 56
2. North Star (4) 3-0 50
3. Divide County 3-0 27
4. Cavalier (1) 2-0 26
5. Napoleon-GS (1) 3-0 19

Rank the teams in terms of greatest chance to go undefeated in the regular season. My picks.
1. Cavalier, might be the best team in the state and I feel pretty confident they are head and shoulders above the rest of region 2.
2. Divide County, basically a guess on my part, but I feel like region 4 is pretty weak
3. North Star, a lot like Cavalier, but maybe not as balanced as Cavalier.
4. WL, I'm not sold they're the best team in the state and they have the toughest schedule of the ranked teams, besides Napoleon.
5. Napoleon


1. North Star
2. Divide County
3. Cavalier
4. W-L
5. Napoleon


I agree with Run. nobody in region 3 will come close to upsetting northstar. I think Region 2 is a little stronger than most think, but Cav is still too strong.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:09 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:1. Wyndmere-Lidgerwood (8) 3-0 56
2. North Star (4) 3-0 50
3. Divide County 3-0 27
4. Cavalier (1) 2-0 26
5. Napoleon-GS (1) 3-0 19

Rank the teams in terms of greatest chance to go undefeated in the regular season. My picks.
1. Cavalier, might be the best team in the state and I feel pretty confident they are head and shoulders above the rest of region 2.
2. Divide County, basically a guess on my part, but I feel like region 4 is pretty weak
3. North Star, a lot like Cavalier, but maybe not as balanced as Cavalier.
4. WL, I'm not sold they're the best team in the state and they have the toughest schedule of the ranked teams, besides Napoleon.
5. Napoleon


1. North Star
2. Divide County
3. Cavalier
4. W-L
5. Napoleon


I agree with Run. nobody in region 3 will come close to upsetting northstar. I think Region 2 is a little stronger than most think, but Cav is still too strong.


No one will touch North Star (who will have the closest game?), DC has decent teams in their region but probably not enough to beat them, the only team that could (maybe) touch Cavalier is NR-S, W-L & Napoleon (and Hankinson) for that matter all play against good competition every week so its hard to put them near the top.
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:18 pm

On paper, TGU should have the closest game since Northstar has already smoked St John and MLS but I doubt they get within 20 of them. Since BC is a big rivalry game you never know if they play the best game of their season they might keep it close, but I don't see a repeat of last year happening (which was an upset I did call by the way)
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby winner-within » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:32 am

NS
W-L
Cavalier

as we speak I would say these are the 3 strongest teams in 9-man, in this order
Barring no injuries or major set backs, a win against one another will be a test of, few mistakes and severe execution......Oh yea, and a little LUCK!....
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby kiper » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:06 am

winner-within wrote:NS
W-L
Cavalier

as we speak I would say these are the 3 strongest teams in 9-man, in this order
Barring no injuries or major set backs, a win against one another will be a test of, few mistakes and severe execution......Oh yea, and a little LUCK!....

Or maybe we are only two weeks into the season and possibly there are other good teams? How crazy would that be?!
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Re: Random posts/questions/discussion thread

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:03 am

winner-within wrote:NS
W-L
Cavalier

as we speak I would say these are the 3 strongest teams in 9-man, in this order
Barring no injuries or major set backs, a win against one another will be a test of, few mistakes and severe execution......Oh yea, and a little LUCK!....


I don't agree NS is the strongest team in the state. They will breeze through Region 3 more than likely, but I don't see them beating other top teams in the state. In my opinion, Cav and WL are the top dogs. I don't know anything about Divide so I can't speculate there. But as the season shakes out, teams like Shiloh, NRS, or Napolean could prove that they are the teams to beat in the state.
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