North Dakota Preps

NDHSAA put out a map of preliminary regions for next year- They would look like this:

Region 1- (9 Teams)
Ellendale/Edgely/Kulm
Oakes
Lisbon
Kindred
Central Cass
Oak Grove
Hilllsboro/CV
Northern Cass
MayPort CG

Region 2- (8 Teams)
Grafton
Park River
Langdon
Thompson
Carrington
Harvey/WC
Rugby
Bottineau

Region 3- (8 Teams)
Ray/PL
Kenmare/B/BC
Stanley
Velva
Minot Ryan
Des Lacs/Burlington
Nedrose
South Prairie

Region 4- (8 Teams)
Shiloh
Southern McLean
Beulah
Hazen
Bowman County
Killdeer
South Heart
Trinity

wow the addition of HCV & MPCG to Region 1 makes for a very tough region.

Absolute garbage that at least two region 1 teams are going to be bigger than a handful of teams in class a but instead will be playing teams less than a third their size.

BelfieldBantams wrote:Absolute garbage that at least two region 1 teams are going to be bigger than a handful of teams in class a but instead will be playing teams less than a third their size.

What schools are these?

BelfieldBantams wrote:Absolute garbage that at least two region 1 teams are going to be bigger than a handful of teams in class a but instead will be playing teams less than a third their size.

Central Cass 166
Kindred 143
EEK 121
Northern Cass 101
Lisbon 106
HCV 111
MPGC 101
Oakes 96
Oak Grove 101

Class A
GF 633
Dickinson 564
RR 584
Jamestown 428
Watford City 309
Devils Lake 337
Horace 252
Valley City 216
Wahp 214
Turtle Mountain 298

There seems to be a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction with the current plan. What are the chances that there isn't significant changes made and we actually have this plan again next year? From everything I have heard I would be kind of surprised if there wasn't changes made.

defensewinsgames wrote:There seems to be a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction with the current plan. What are the chances that there isn't significant changes made and we actually have this plan again next year? From everything I have heard I would be kind of surprised if there wasn't changes made.

What is wrong with this plan?

Flying Wallenda wrote:

defensewinsgames wrote:There seems to be a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction with the current plan. What are the chances that there isn't significant changes made and we actually have this plan again next year? From everything I have heard I would be kind of surprised if there wasn't changes made.

What is wrong with this plan?

People don't like North, South and the GF Schools cause they are in 11A and not 11AA and they want HCV, Kindred & CC among others in that 11A

Many have no issues but some do so changes are being 'demanded'

WalkingStick wrote:

Flying Wallenda wrote:

defensewinsgames wrote:There seems to be a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction with the current plan. What are the chances that there isn't significant changes made and we actually have this plan again next year? From everything I have heard I would be kind of surprised if there wasn't changes made.

What is wrong with this plan?

People don't like North, South and the GF Schools cause they are in 11A and not 11AA and they want HCV, Kindred & CC among others in that 11A

Many have no issues but some do so changes are being 'demanded'

Is the concern with the class B schools because of enrollment or success? Casselton has the largest enrollment but has never won a football title (that I remember), Kindred finally won 1 last year, and HCV has won but is in the middle of the class enrollment wise. It sure doesn't look like the teams at the top of 11A are steamrolling anyone. In fact, it appears Valley City is the only undefeated left in that division.

WalkingStick wrote:

Flying Wallenda wrote:

defensewinsgames wrote:There seems to be a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction with the current plan. What are the chances that there isn't significant changes made and we actually have this plan again next year? From everything I have heard I would be kind of surprised if there wasn't changes made.

What is wrong with this plan?

People don't like North, South and the GF Schools cause they are in 11A and not 11AA and they want HCV, Kindred & CC among others in that 11A

Many have no issues but some do so changes are being 'demanded'

I don't think this is an accurate statement. I'm going to try and give tangible evidence so my point is made effectively and not based on personal opinion/feeling. So I won't even address the class b big school problem because that never seems to go anywhere. So I will try it like this, I listen to the Izzo show just about every day. He has on 2 or 3 high school coaches a week. From the 9 man coaches (Beach, Cavalier), to the little 11 man schools to the biggest 11 man schools (Bismarck, Davies); not one coach has gone on that show and said they like this plan (and Izzo asks everyone of them). I name these schools because I specifically heard their coaches speak out against it. The large schools dislike the playoff issues (Davies being left out last year) and number of teams that are in their division as well as their being no-penalty for playing teams below you in a division (I play a triple a team and lose and go down but you play a bad double a team and win and go up in playoff seedings). The small schools have complained about everything from being forced up based on success (even if your numbers clearly dictate it you should be down - AKA Lamoure and Cavalier) to it being hard to schedule non-region games because of format and scheduling (Cavalier played a 11 man team and AA JV this year and look at region 2 single a - Harvey and Langdon are only playing 8 games because buy weeks are different for every single team in the region so you only have one team you can schedule from the region next to yours and it might be the last week of the season). The only ones I have heard in favor of the play live in Grand Forks and half of Fargo. You can disagree with these people and their complaints but when dozens of coaches say this plan is problematic you can't say that "many have no issues but some do."

defensewinsgames wrote:

WalkingStick wrote:

Flying Wallenda wrote:

defensewinsgames wrote:There seems to be a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction with the current plan. What are the chances that there isn't significant changes made and we actually have this plan again next year? From everything I have heard I would be kind of surprised if there wasn't changes made.

What is wrong with this plan?

People don't like North, South and the GF Schools cause they are in 11A and not 11AA and they want HCV, Kindred & CC among others in that 11A

Many have no issues but some do so changes are being 'demanded'

I don't think this is an accurate statement. I'm going to try and give tangible evidence so my point is made effectively and not based on personal opinion/feeling. So I won't even address the class b big school problem because that never seems to go anywhere. So I will try it like this, I listen to the Izzo show just about every day. He has on 2 or 3 high school coaches a week. From the 9 man coaches (Beach, Cavalier), to the little 11 man schools to the biggest 11 man schools (Bismarck, Davies); not one coach has gone on that show and said they like this plan (and Izzo asks everyone of them). I name these schools because I specifically heard their coaches speak out against it. The large schools dislike the playoff issues (Davies being left out last year) and number of teams that are in their division as well as their being no-penalty for playing teams below you in a division (I play a triple a team and lose and go down but you play a bad double a team and win and go up in playoff seedings). The small schools have complained about everything from being forced up based on success (even if your numbers clearly dictate it you should be down - AKA Lamoure and Cavalier) to it being hard to schedule non-region games because of format and scheduling (Cavalier played a 11 man team and AA JV this year and look at region 2 single a - Harvey and Langdon are only playing 8 games because buy weeks are different for every single team in the region so you only have one team you can schedule from the region next to yours and it might be the last week of the season). The only ones I have heard in favor of the play live in Grand Forks and half of Fargo. You can disagree with these people and their complaints but when dozens of coaches say this plan is problematic you can't say that "many have no issues but some do."

I don't have a dog in the fight in this division, but you are right. I have heard numerous coaches come right out and say this plan was designed to make the Grand Forks schools and Fargo North and South competitive and they really didn't care about the rest of us.

I've been against the current alignment for football since I first saw it. I have yet to hear a reasonable rational to explain to me why public schools in ND's largest and 3rd largest city are not in the top classification for football. If we throw out Minot who is an outlier. the actual male enrollment of the 13 next largest schools (BHS to FS) range from 770-475. I think that's a pretty good range for a class. Throw in Minot and the two opt ups and there would be 16 schools. I know that Minot will have 2 teams and Horace will continue to grow.

Edited to add:

Take the next 14 largest teams (over 100 male enrollment) and you'd have Jamestown to Fargo Oak Grove.

Then move the 11B number down to 70 and you have 29 teams and the rest 9 man.

No good answers any place. Let the the class B teams run their cycle. In a couple years it will be some team that is having a good run that we will want to kick them up to the next level. Schwabs plan is just as good as any. It would be Jamestown in the state championship game every year with them being upset once until they change the plan and move Jamestown up or St. Mary's and Shanley start getting beat and then move them down so they can win state titles again. Then you have kids traveling 10 hours on a bus to play a Friday night game. Stinks but what do you do to make it equal.
MPCG is being dominate at the 9 man level... what do they do... now you are 11 man. Makes MPCG mad but makes everyone MPCG is killing happy.

Just curious has MPCG been in one semi-final in the past 20 years?

I think my point is saying they have a really good football team right now and when you have success then something is unfair and things need to change. Their basketball program was unstoppable for years. As said about that Kindred has been to the State Championship game twice and won once in the history of the their school Central Cass NEVER.... Fargo South was killing everyone for years...Now they are not winning state titles and they get moved down a class???

I don't think MPCG's move has anything to do with their success and more likely has to do with their recent Co-op with Finley/Sharon. Last year's plan showed that MPCG was already an "Opt Down" team that had enrollment to be in 11-man. The numbers listed on NDHSAA's plan shows 87 kids for MPCG and an additional 14 for Finley-Sharon. Even after the "Adjusted" enrollment is figured they still had 87 total and the cut-off for 11 man is 60. The rules state that you have to be with-in 25% of that number to be eligible to opt down. That would be 75 kids which 87 is clearly above that. Last year the cut-off for 9-man was 65.78 kids and MPCG and Finley Sharon had an enrollment of 71 so they were clearly within the 25% range to be able to opt down.

The part of this whole plan that I don't agree with- and it's been mentioned- is the forcing of teams up because of success. Don't penalize teams for having a good run. Also if you're going to do that, do it across the board. I understand Langdon is dealing with some injuries and it may be unlikely that they make a run to the state finals, however if they made it to the state championship game, they would have 12-13 success points over the past 4 years, but the rules state that an 11B team will NOT be forced up to 11A. But if Cavalier goes to the state finals, or LaMoure wins it and goes back to the Semi-finals against next year, they will be forced up to 11B. St. Mary's was forced up this year from 11A to 11AA. If the plan isn't good enough to enforce it in every division, it probably is just not a good enough plan to have in place in the first place.

I also don't get why this is something that is only done in football. Linton is back to back volleyball state champs. Why aren't they playing Class "A" this year? How about moving New Town or Bowman County up in Cross Country with all the success they have been having over the last decade. Lisbon's Wresting team could move up to Class "A" since they've won 5 or 6 straight state Class "B" championships or Four Winds/Kindred basketball could move up, they're at the state tourney seemingly every year..... it's ridiculous to even consider doing this with the schools/teams that I mention, so why do it with Football? The adjusted enrollments of Cavalier and LaMoure are 58 and 44 respectively. Why force them up to play teams with double and triple their enrollments when they are within 20-25 kids of every team in their current divisions with the exception of the three absolute smallest 9-man schools

I've been one that has always said that there needs to be more taken into consideration than just the enrollment of schools. There have been times that I have thought that success of programs needs to be taken into account, but I don't think that is the right step either. Teams should not be punished for being successful. I do, however, think there needs to be something taken into account that has to do with the socioeconomic status of the school district. I personally feel that this has way more to do with long term, sustained success than just a good run of athletes. I also feel that there can be dominant teams and sustained success without winning state titles.

maddog1971 wrote:No good answers any place. Let the the class B teams run their cycle. In a couple years it will be some team that is having a good run that we will want to kick them up to the next level. Schwabs plan is just as good as any. It would be Jamestown in the state championship game every year with them being upset once until they change the plan and move Jamestown up or St. Mary's and Shanley start getting beat and then move them down so they can win state titles again. Then you have kids traveling 10 hours on a bus to play a Friday night game. Stinks but what do you do to make it equal.
MPCG is being dominate at the 9 man level... what do they do... now you are 11 man. Makes MPCG mad but makes everyone MPCG is killing happy.

I have not heard one comment made about some teams that have had great success recently: MayPort, Cavalier, Kidder County, LaMoure, EEK (a while ago), Wyndmere (a while ago), Richland (a while ago), North Star (a while ago); even Langdon...No one was saying Enderlin should move up in basketball either. No one complains when small schools are in the middle of a great run or calls for them to move up - that just isn't happening. The cyclical nature will never go away and most people are happy for those small schools getting a couple year run. Saying that is a copout and very weak and veiled biased defense of those large schools.

What big class b school supporters never acknowledge is the difference in resources along with the number of kids. Go walk into Central Cass's new athletic complex and turf fields and tell me that EEK and Sargent County (in football) or FCT, Maple River, and Wyndmere (in basketball) can offer 1/3rd of those resources (weight room, fields, gyms, equipment, training facilities, locker rooms, money for upgrades/equipment/technology/etc.). That isn't a non-factor that should be forgotten and go unacknowledged. Central Cass has nicer facilities than 2/3rds of the colleges in ND. Yes kids have to utilize those facilities appropriately to get the most out of them but holy cow are those small school kids starting 5 steps behind because of an extremely large gap in resources.

defensewinsgames wrote:

maddog1971 wrote:No good answers any place. Let the the class B teams run their cycle. In a couple years it will be some team that is having a good run that we will want to kick them up to the next level. Schwabs plan is just as good as any. It would be Jamestown in the state championship game every year with them being upset once until they change the plan and move Jamestown up or St. Mary's and Shanley start getting beat and then move them down so they can win state titles again. Then you have kids traveling 10 hours on a bus to play a Friday night game. Stinks but what do you do to make it equal.
MPCG is being dominate at the 9 man level... what do they do... now you are 11 man. Makes MPCG mad but makes everyone MPCG is killing happy.

I have not heard one comment made about some teams that have had great success recently: MayPort, Cavalier, Kidder County, LaMoure, EEK (a while ago), Wyndmere (a while ago), Richland (a while ago), North Star (a while ago); even Langdon...No one was saying Enderlin should move up in basketball either. No one complains when small schools are in the middle of a great run or calls for them to move up - that just isn't happening. The cyclical nature will never go away and most people are happy for those small schools getting a couple year run. Saying that is a copout and very weak and veiled biased defense of those large schools.

What big class b school supporters never acknowledge is the difference in resources along with the number of kids. Go walk into Central Cass's new athletic complex and turf fields and tell me that EEK and Sargent County (in football) or FCT, Maple River, and Wyndmere (in basketball) can offer 1/3rd of those resources (weight room, fields, gyms, equipment, training facilities, locker rooms, money for upgrades/equipment/technology/etc.). That isn't a non-factor that should be forgotten and go unacknowledged. Central Cass has nicer facilities than 2/3rds of the colleges in ND. Yes kids have to utilize those facilities appropriately to get the most out of them but holy cow are those small school kids starting 5 steps behind because of an extremely large gap in resources.

so what we are saying is we want rich kid / poor kid divisions? But in all seriousness the community of casselton has decided that is a priority to them. Other communities can do the same, make the commitment or don't...

No come on now, you know that isn't true. If your taxable base is 1/10th of Casselton you can't have that kind of facility that isn't how school funding works. School funding is about land valuation, number of taxable people, mills, etc. It isn't that Casselton just prioritizes it more than small schools. That is a ridiculous statement if you know anything about school systems, finances, or taxes. If everyone could do it they would.

Rich and poor football... I am all for that because small towns are not as good because they don't have any money. I would love to hear someone suggest that in downtown Linton on a Friday night. You will not be leaving with your teeth. And yes Central Cass is unreal but guess what most of that is done through fund raising and it is not being paid for fully by the schools.

maddog1971 wrote:Rich and poor football... I am all for that because small towns are not as good because they don't have any money. I would love to hear someone suggest that in downtown Linton on a Friday night. You will not be leaving with your teeth. And yes Central Cass is unreal but guess what most of that is done through fund raising and it is not being paid for fully by the schools.

The Lintons, Cavaliers, Velvas, Harveys, etc. aren't the problem. Teams with rich traditions and community/school support will always have success and nicer facilities than others. Look how many other teams are struggling with numbers and it's due to a number of factors. Economics, declining enrollment, lack of success and low participation. That is why we are seeing fewer and fewer teams each season and it gets more difficult to develop a fair football plan. A majority of our teams face a large uphill battle to be competitive.

I grew up in small towns. My class had 18 total kids. So I get it and I grew up with a chip on my shoulder for big schools. BUT I will say I have no idea how to come up with a plan to make people happy.

maddog1971 wrote:I grew up in small towns. My class had 18 total kids. So I get it and I grew up with a chip on my shoulder for big schools. BUT I will say I have no idea how to come up with a plan to make people happy.

Absolutely right, there are winners and losers in any plan and many team are just going to have to play with the chip on their shoulder and against the odds. But, we also have to acknowledge that some teams will always have an advantage and that's just part of it.