2021 11B Playoff Bracket

[Bisonguy06]

Totally predictable playoff results today, agree there.

I bet a majority of ND students attend class A schools.

A NDHSAA board with a class A majority would have proportional representation for the state’s student population.

So then we should get rid of the US senate and just let the US House decide?

I certainly don’t believe that high school activities should have two decision making bodies that have to work together, one built like the House and one like the Senate. Imagine that fiasco.

We have one decision making body, and it should look more like the House. That’s exactly what I’m saying.

[maddog1971]

And back to Football talk....
Kindred and HCV will be a very good game. I think the heat in the dome will have some effect on the game. Lot's of cramping. That was a big problem in the first match up of these two teams. Kindred had 7 starters on the sideline throughout the games. SO... I think the lines of both teams are very good but I will give the advantage to Kindred on that because HCV lost their starting Center... I think they are very even. I think HCV has an advantage with height in the receiving core and Kindreds D-Backs are small. Both teams can run and both teams are very good at stopping the run.... This game will come down to turnovers and special teams. 28 to 20 Kindred

[maddog1971]

I will agree that Central Cass and Kindred should be playing class B schools if there were 3 football classes and 2 of them made up of strictly class B schools. Since there are 4 classes I would say that CC and Kindred should be playing with the larger class B schools (that have been mentioned) as well as the smaller class A schools (Jamestown and smaller). My stance on this issue has not and will not change.

Yes.... the 2 power houses in Football
Kindred BIG POWER HOUSE They have been killing teams for the last 21 years. They should be class AAA
2000 1-7
2001 3-6
2002 4-5
2003 1-8
2004 3-6
2005 3-6
2006 4-6
2007 3-6
2008 3-6
2009 0-9
2010 2-7
2011 6-4
2012 3-6
2013 5-5
2014 2-7
2015 4-6
2016 9-3
2017 4-5
2018 7-3
2019 7-3
2020 6-2
2021 11-1

Central Cass... They should be Playing AAA As well... they have been so dominate in football
2000 0-7
2001 1-8
2002 1-8
2003 2-7
2004 0-9
2005 2-7
2006 1-8
2007 3-6
2008 3-6
2009 6-4
2010 5-4
2011 4-5
2012 4-5
2013 3-6
2014 5-5
2015 7-4
2016 5-5
2017 3-6
2018 8-3
2019 3-6
2020 4-5
2021 9-2

[WalkingStick]

He said AA there genius if there are 4 classes...like it used to be essentially. You love getting so worked up.

This was Central Cass' first year in small 11-man since 1996

Kindred has fluctuated between Small & Middle class of 11-man (AA: 2009-2016, 2019 & 2020)

Since 2010
Kindred - Small 11-Man Class: 22-9 (.710)
Kindred - Middle 11-Man Class: 44-43 (.506)

Central Cass - Middle 11-Man Class: 51-54 (.486)

[Bisonguy06]

No one is picking on Central Cass and Kindred. The problem is the division above them. They are part of the solution.

The top division should grow and should include everyone larger than Jamestown, with Jamestown as the bubble team. No opting down. The next division, having lost teams upward, would need to replace.

Central Cass and Kindred are the next two largest schools, with a gap behind them. They are bedroom communities to the rapidly growing Fargo/West Fargo area.

By current and future enrollment, I believe they belong up a division, and if the numbers said something different, so would I.

[The Schwab]

So maddog, you say back to football talk, but then point out how someone is picking on poor Kindred and Central Cass. Keep sipping the kool-aid.

[ND Sports Fan]

No one is picking on Central Cass and Kindred. The problem is the division above them. They are part of the solution.

The top division should grow and should include everyone larger than Jamestown, with Jamestown as the bubble team. No opting down. The next division, having lost teams upward, would need to replace.

Central Cass and Kindred are the next two largest schools, with a gap behind them. They are bedroom communities to the rapidly growing Fargo/West Fargo area.

By current and future enrollment, I believe they belong up a division, and if the numbers said something different, so would I.

The numbers DO say something different. According to NDHSAA, in order to be a Class A school, you have to have 325 students 9-12, it has been this way since 1974. Has this been wrong for 47 years?

Kindred and Central Cass are Class B schools. I have never understood the thought of needing to constantly change the football plan to accommodate whomever is in charge of football for that given time period. Maybe it is time to evaluate the enrollment requirement for Class A/Class B, rather than continue to bicker about 2 classes, 3 classes, 4 classes. North Dakota has 2 classes, A and B. Carve out football because certain people don't want to have to compete against schools in their class. Are we over thinking this?

[Flying Wallenda]

So maddog, you say back to football talk, but then point out how someone is picking on poor Kindred and Central Cass. Keep sipping the kool-aid.

Oh no. Heimer's quote......
It was actually "flavor-aid".....

[Flying Wallenda]

No one is picking on Central Cass and Kindred. The problem is the division above them. They are part of the solution.

The top division should grow and should include everyone larger than Jamestown, with Jamestown as the bubble team. No opting down. The next division, having lost teams upward, would need to replace.

Central Cass and Kindred are the next two largest schools, with a gap behind them. They are bedroom communities to the rapidly growing Fargo/West Fargo area.

By current and future enrollment, I believe they belong up a division, and if the numbers said something different, so would I.

Bisonguy I'm interested in your opinion on why the top division should grow? The GF/Fargo schools that some have villainized in this go around had very mediocre (or worse) seasons. Perhaps they are where they should be instead of getting cleaned up on by Sheyenne, WF, etc...? Ironically, the teams that composed the old 11A (wahp/DL/VC also had the same kind of season as did those GF and Fargo schoools). Two of the smaller boys, St. Mary and J-town competing for the title. Seems like maybe parity was found?

Interested in your take. Thanks.

[The Schwab]

I'm not Bisonguy but here's my take:

11AA- 10 teams
11A- 12 teams
11B- 33 teams
9B- 41 teams

Of the 5 teams that I feel should be in the highest division (North, South, Red River, Central and Dickinson) 4 of them made the playoffs and you classify them as having mediocre seasons. Teams that have mediocre seasons shouldn't make the playoffs IMO.

I have a hard time protecting schools who have 600 boys in grades 9-12, from schools that have 800 boys in grades 9-12.

In my plan, 14 in the top class, 20 in the second class, 29 in the 3rd class and 33 playing 9-man is a lot better split IMO.

I am not a fan of having 22 teams in the top two classes play for 16 playoff spots.

[WalkingStick]

I'm not Bisonguy but here's my take:

11AA- 10 teams
11A- 12 teams
11B- 33 teams
9B- 41 teams

Of the 5 teams that I feel should be in the highest division (North, South, Red River, Central and Dickinson) 4 of them made the playoffs and you classify them as having mediocre seasons. Teams that have mediocre seasons shouldn't make the playoffs IMO.

I have a hard time protecting schools who have 600 boys in grades 9-12, from schools that have 800 boys in grades 9-12.

In my plan, 14 in the top class, 20 in the second class, 29 in the 3rd class and 33 playing 9-man is a lot better split IMO.

I am not a fan of having 22 teams in the top two classes play for 16 playoff spots.

North was the only one that had a respectable record; GFRR benefited from making postseason because of the unbalance East/West (if it was strictly top 4 or Top 8 QRF they wouldn't make it). Dickinson, South, GFRR & GFC had losing records entering the postseason...part of that is because they had to play the 11AA teams.

The only reason these teams were given the option to move down was because the decision was made to split the A & B schools up (I know for a fact that some of this was pushed by the Big Class A schools out west; not the state catering to the small A schools); the small A schools benefited from the committee listening and splitting A & B

I think they'd been better off doing a six team playoff in each 11AA & 11A...so only 3 from the East & West got in and then reseeding could be used or not...balance is better than unbalanced for postseason

[The Schwab]

Who has a say in the football classification? That's a genuine question because I'm unsure of the answer.

Since it was brought up IMO these are the small class A schools in our state: Devils Lake, Fargo Shanley, Valley City, Wahpeton, Bismarck St. Marys, Watford City, Belcourt. Jamestown is kind of in the middle, but more towards large IMO

[Flying Wallenda]

I'm not Bisonguy but here's my take:

11AA- 10 teams
11A- 12 teams
11B- 33 teams
9B- 41 teams

Of the 5 teams that I feel should be in the highest division (North, South, Red River, Central and Dickinson) 4 of them made the playoffs and you classify them as having mediocre seasons. Teams that have mediocre seasons shouldn't make the playoffs IMO.

I have a hard time protecting schools who have 600 boys in grades 9-12, from schools that have 800 boys in grades 9-12.

In my plan, 14 in the top class, 20 in the second class, 29 in the 3rd class and 33 playing 9-man is a lot better split IMO.

I am not a fan of having 22 teams in the top two classes play for 16 playoff spots.

As walkingstick said, these teams all finished around 500 or less except for North. Not sure what better word to use than mediocre? Perhaps your complaint is with the number of playoff teams? 16 out of 22 seems extreme IMO. Hard for me to agree that the enrollment span of 107-425 would be fair, while 72-152 is not, especially looking at the makeup of the bulk of the teams (St. Mary/Jamestown - then the other end of Park River, Stanley, Grafton, etc).

Its funny - 6-7 years ago Park River was winning back to back titles and dominating. Now they struggle to score, period. Very cyclical.

[WalkingStick]

I'm not Bisonguy but here's my take:

11AA- 10 teams
11A- 12 teams
11B- 33 teams
9B- 41 teams

Of the 5 teams that I feel should be in the highest division (North, South, Red River, Central and Dickinson) 4 of them made the playoffs and you classify them as having mediocre seasons. Teams that have mediocre seasons shouldn't make the playoffs IMO.

I have a hard time protecting schools who have 600 boys in grades 9-12, from schools that have 800 boys in grades 9-12.

In my plan, 14 in the top class, 20 in the second class, 29 in the 3rd class and 33 playing 9-man is a lot better split IMO.

I am not a fan of having 22 teams in the top two classes play for 16 playoff spots.

As walkingstick said, these teams all finished around 500 or less except for North. Not sure what better word to use than mediocre? Perhaps your complaint is with the number of playoff teams? 16 out of 22 seems extreme IMO. Hard for me to agree that the enrollment span of 107-425 would be fair, while 72-152 is not, especially looking at the makeup of the bulk of the teams (St. Mary/Jamestown - then the other end of Park River, Stanley, Grafton, etc).

Its funny - 6-7 years ago Park River was winning back to back titles and dominating. Now they struggle to score, period. Very cyclical.

That's where using the past 10 years as a guide is hard cause some B schools had once-in-a-decade classes and probably won't see success for a long time.

Park River-FL had 2-3 solid years then a lot of poor years (not even mediocre); they should be a Class 11B school no matter what, in my eyes. They were gracious to accept V-E's enrollment and their 2 or 3 athletes...I don't feel they should be punished and moved up for giving those athletes a chance to play somewhere else (same thoughts go towards Montpelier being added to EEK).

We all agree on some things...we all differ on others; I like the debate because I think we all care more than the committee has ever cared when making these classes.

[The Schwab]

I completely agree that in your normal class B school success is cyclical. A majority of the teams in my AA proposal are not your normal class B school. Maybe the high school activities needs to look at adjusting the enrollment numbers for co-op schools (25% of the 3rd school).

Most of my opinions come from the basketball perspective and I realize that football requires more players at a time. I have always said it is easier for a school of 200 to compete with a school of 1000 than it is for a school of 40 to compete with one of 200 on a year in and year out basis.

[WalkingStick]

I completely agree that in your normal class B school success is cyclical. A majority of the teams in my AA proposal are not your normal class B school. Maybe the high school activities needs to look at adjusting the enrollment numbers for co-op schools (25% of the 3rd school).

Most of my opinions come from the basketball perspective and I realize that football requires more players at a time. I have always said it is easier for a school of 200 to compete with a school of 1000 than it is for a school of 40 to compete with one of 200 on a year in and year out basis.

neither scenario is easy.

I try to not think basketball & football at the same time; heck when talking 3-classes I hate that the state says VB has to be part of that process because VB & BB aren't the same either (numbers are similar but things are different).

I do like reading your takes though and looking into them and trying to understand...as I hope others do with my takes.

[The Schwab]

Most of my views come from a region that has been dominated by a large and private school for over a decade. Football is different because the regions have changed so often.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter to me where they put the GF and Fargo schools or Central Cass and Kindred.

[5-time state chump]

Letting teams go down based on their school's perennial sucky-ness is the dumbest thing ever.

It should be enrollment only.

[WalkingStick]

Most of my views come from a region that has been dominated by a large and private school for over a decade. Football is different because the regions have changed so often.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter to me where they put the GF and Fargo schools or Central Cass and Kindred.

Totally understand...R5 & R7 have had their struggles vs. their private schools.

[WalkingStick]

Hillsboro-Central Valley 27
Kindred 21

[Bisonguy06]

No one is picking on Central Cass and Kindred. The problem is the division above them. They are part of the solution.

The top division should grow and should include everyone larger than Jamestown, with Jamestown as the bubble team. No opting down. The next division, having lost teams upward, would need to replace.

Central Cass and Kindred are the next two largest schools, with a gap behind them. They are bedroom communities to the rapidly growing Fargo/West Fargo area.

By current and future enrollment, I believe they belong up a division, and if the numbers said something different, so would I.

The numbers DO say something different. According to NDHSAA, in order to be a Class A school, you have to have 325 students 9-12, it has been this way since 1974. Has this been wrong for 47 years?

Kindred and Central Cass are Class B schools. I have never understood the thought of needing to constantly change the football plan to accommodate whomever is in charge of football for that given time period. Maybe it is time to evaluate the enrollment requirement for Class A/Class B, rather than continue to bicker about 2 classes, 3 classes, 4 classes. North Dakota has 2 classes, A and B. Carve out football because certain people don't want to have to compete against schools in their class. Are we over thinking this?

That’s good reasoning. I do believe we’ll eventually see Central Cass and Kindred grow north of 325. I don’t know how soon.

[Bisonguy06]

No one is picking on Central Cass and Kindred. The problem is the division above them. They are part of the solution.

The top division should grow and should include everyone larger than Jamestown, with Jamestown as the bubble team. No opting down. The next division, having lost teams upward, would need to replace.

Central Cass and Kindred are the next two largest schools, with a gap behind them. They are bedroom communities to the rapidly growing Fargo/West Fargo area.

By current and future enrollment, I believe they belong up a division, and if the numbers said something different, so would I.

Bisonguy I'm interested in your opinion on why the top division should grow? The GF/Fargo schools that some have villainized in this go around had very mediocre (or worse) seasons. Perhaps they are where they should be instead of getting cleaned up on by Sheyenne, WF, etc...? Ironically, the teams that composed the old 11A (wahp/DL/VC also had the same kind of season as did those GF and Fargo schoools). Two of the smaller boys, St. Mary and J-town competing for the title. Seems like maybe parity was found?

Interested in your take. Thanks.

From memory, if you grouped the largest 14 schools together, the largest would be Minot and the smallest would be Fargo south and the enrollment ratio would be about 2 to 1. It was not long ago that Fargo south was THE powerhouse in the east. Meanwhile, Minot went 2-7 this year.

I think if we are able to tell the smallest team in any division that you will not play an opponent that is more than double your size, that is about as good and as fair as anyone can expect.

After Fargo South there is a male enrollment gap of over 100, then Jamestown, then another gap of 100 or so. Jamestown is the bubble team, but it is quite clear that the dividing line belongs either right above or right below Jamestown.

Finally, I do not support opting down. Plain and simple. Not where the enrollment ratio is 2:1 or less.

[ChickenNuggets]

Sorry, Not sure if it's allowed here since it's off topic... But I'll predict Hillsboro by 2 TD's in the finals.

[WalkingStick]

No one is picking on Central Cass and Kindred. The problem is the division above them. They are part of the solution.

The top division should grow and should include everyone larger than Jamestown, with Jamestown as the bubble team. No opting down. The next division, having lost teams upward, would need to replace.

Central Cass and Kindred are the next two largest schools, with a gap behind them. They are bedroom communities to the rapidly growing Fargo/West Fargo area.

By current and future enrollment, I believe they belong up a division, and if the numbers said something different, so would I.

Bisonguy I'm interested in your opinion on why the top division should grow? The GF/Fargo schools that some have villainized in this go around had very mediocre (or worse) seasons. Perhaps they are where they should be instead of getting cleaned up on by Sheyenne, WF, etc...? Ironically, the teams that composed the old 11A (wahp/DL/VC also had the same kind of season as did those GF and Fargo schoools). Two of the smaller boys, St. Mary and J-town competing for the title. Seems like maybe parity was found?

Interested in your take. Thanks.

From memory, if you grouped the largest 14 schools together, the largest would be Minot and the smallest would be Fargo south and the enrollment ratio would be about 2 to 1. It was not long ago that Fargo south was THE powerhouse in the east. Meanwhile, Minot went 2-7 this year.

I think if we are able to tell the smallest team in any division that you will not play an opponent that is more than double your size, that is about as good and as fair as anyone can expect.

After Fargo South there is a male enrollment gap of over 100, then Jamestown, then another gap of 100 or so. Jamestown is the bubble team, but it is quite clear that the dividing line belongs either right above or right below Jamestown.

Finally, I do not support opting down. Plain and simple. Not where the enrollment ratio is 2:1 or less.

When it comes to the larger schools...honestly I think Williston needs to be down in that 11A and St. Mary's should be up in 11AA. I could live with that switch and keep the entire system that is being used next year. Williston has the enrollment but per something Schwab stated earlier...their record in the Top Class is 'Historically Bad' over the past decade; their last winning record was in 2008. I'd give the A & B split a chance for two more years though to just give it a chance...it's hard to shoot something down after one year

[maddog1971]

So maddog, you say back to football talk, but then point out how someone is picking on poor Kindred and Central Cass. Keep sipping the kool-aid.

I do love grape kool-aid. That might be the most honest thing I have ever typed on this site....