2022 Preliminary Plan

[WalkingStick]

I think the biggest hurdle we face is fear of change. The plan did pass the district chairs meeting 14-2 in one of those two years. I don't know what changed and why people changed their mind. I think that football is the easiest one for the NDHSAA to change and adjust. Why? Because each class has one title game. Easy to schedule. I don't believe that NDHSAA will add 6 man to the mix and play the title game at the same venue. Why? It's not easy.

I might be the only one who thinks this way, but the reasons there aren't 3 classes in basketball:
1. Fear of not making as much money
2. Basketball tournaments wouldn't fit in their nice 3 week window they have now, unless you're going to have the boys and girls tournaments on the same weekend and/or in the same venue. What would they do about TV if they did that? Again, fear of change.
3. NDHSAA wants volleyball to follow the same alignment as basketball. Volleyball isn't broken.
4. Afraid of the private schools. There are people with money that can get around NDHSAA's rules. Look at the cases where they grant and deny "hardships".

I know that people like myself are part of the problem. People like me will go to class B basketball tournaments no matter what teams are competing. Why? Because it's a family tradition and it's a longing for the way things used to be. We'll go and root for the Powers Lakes and Wilton Wings of the world. We long for the days of Hillsboro vs. Epping. We know deep down in our hearts that the chances of David winning are slim to none. But there's always that chance.

$$$ has always been the driving force...I don't get why only one station does State Tournament games and then gets to dictate decisions with their power. It doesn't work for WDAY so they don't pursue the option...why not give KVLY or BEK one of the tournaments?? BEK already does a better job with the volleyball State that the major stations refuse to want to televise.

[BelfieldBantams]

How can you argue with this years setup.... I think it is very competitive. You had the number #1 team in the state all year get knocked off in the first round. You have top ranked teams squaring off in the quarter finals. You have the number 1 team in the state going against the a team who beat them early in the year..... Langdon and Kindred going at it as well.... who does not want to watch either of those games? I will watch both for sure. How can you complain? Yes put St. Mary's back in the mix and it is a one school race.

I'm going out on a limb and disagree that 11B isn't as wide open as everyone else on this board. The winners of the HCV/Central Cass games and the Kindred/Langdon games will win their semi-finals in convincing fashion.

I completely agree that it's not as wide open as most think. But I'd go a step further, if the first round was east vs west (instead of north vs south) that the east would have had a very good chance to sweep. Worst case scenario, I think 6 east teams would have won vs the west. In fact if 9 man can basically go all over this weekend, then why can't 11B just seed the entire tournament so we can have a possibility of the top 4 teams in the state playing against each other in the semi's?

[maddog1971]

I think Basketball and football and two completely different animals. Football is a numbers game. A school of 100 students can not compete against a school of 500 students. It just does not work because you need at least 16 to 18 good kids to compete. That is a low number.
Now basketball you only play about 7 to 8 players and 5 at a time. So think almost any school can put out 5 kids. Yes the bigger schools will have a team compete every year but that does not mean they will put out the best team every year.
I do agree that there needs to be 3 divisions in basketball. The State tournament teams each year tell us that the private schools are winning at such a rate that is expectable. (By the way Oak Grove got a transfer from West Fargo for Basketball) SOOO I like to argue with Schwab but this time we are almost on the same page. The Bigger B's and the Privates to class B and everyone else to class C

I don't like it because I love the B and the atmosphere and I think you will lose that if you split it up but.....

[Sportsrube]

I think Basketball and football and two completely different animals. Football is a numbers game. A school of 100 students can not compete against a school of 500 students. It just does not work because you need at least 16 to 18 good kids to compete. That is a low number.
Now basketball you only play about 7 to 8 players and 5 at a time. So think almost any school can put out 5 kids. Yes the bigger schools will have a team compete every year but that does not mean they will put out the best team every year.
I do agree that there needs to be 3 divisions in basketball. The State tournament teams each year tell us that the private schools are winning at such a rate that is expectable. (By the way Oak Grove got a transfer from West Fargo for Basketball) SOOO I like to argue with Schwab but this time we are almost on the same page. The Bigger B's and the Privates to class B and everyone else to class C

I don't like it because I love the B and the atmosphere and I think you will lose that if you split it up but.....

I would argue that the Class B boys basketball tournament is already losing atmosphere. When Bismarck, Dickinson, Minot and Fargo are in the Class B, you are losing that atmosphere. I think that the bottom two tournaments would be very good money makers for the NDHSAA, especially if they played them on separate weekends so both could be televised.

[ndfbfan70]

Personally I think adding another 9 man division(ie South Dakota) may cure a lot of gripes.

[Bisonguy06]

How can you argue with this years setup.... I think it is very competitive. You had the number #1 team in the state all year get knocked off in the first round. You have top ranked teams squaring off in the quarter finals. You have the number 1 team in the state going against the a team who beat them early in the year..... Langdon and Kindred going at it as well.... who does not want to watch either of those games? I will watch both for sure. How can you complain? Yes put St. Mary's back in the mix and it is a one school race.

I'm going out on a limb and disagree that 11B isn't as wide open as everyone else on this board. The winners of the HCV/Central Cass games and the Kindred/Langdon games will win their semi-finals in convincing fashion.

Agree 100% here.

[Bisonguy06]

I think the biggest hurdle we face is fear of change. The plan did pass the district chairs meeting 14-2 in one of those two years. I don't know what changed and why people changed their mind. I think that football is the easiest one for the NDHSAA to change and adjust. Why? Because each class has one title game. Easy to schedule. I don't believe that NDHSAA will add 6 man to the mix and play the title game at the same venue. Why? It's not easy.

I might be the only one who thinks this way, but the reasons there aren't 3 classes in basketball:
1. Fear of not making as much money
2. Basketball tournaments wouldn't fit in their nice 3 week window they have now, unless you're going to have the boys and girls tournaments on the same weekend and/or in the same venue. What would they do about TV if they did that? Again, fear of change.
3. NDHSAA wants volleyball to follow the same alignment as basketball. Volleyball isn't broken.
4. Afraid of the private schools. There are people with money that can get around NDHSAA's rules. Look at the cases where they grant and deny "hardships".

I know that people like myself are part of the problem. People like me will go to class B basketball tournaments no matter what teams are competing. Why? Because it's a family tradition and it's a longing for the way things used to be. We'll go and root for the Powers Lakes and Wilton Wings of the world. We long for the days of Hillsboro vs. Epping. We know deep down in our hearts that the chances of David winning are slim to none. But there's always that chance.

I'm not gung ho for three classes, to say the least.

But if it's done, 3 combined boys & girls tournaments on 3 weekends is absolutely the way to do it.
Super A
Super B
Super C
Those would be fun weekends for the schools involved at each level.

[Bisonguy06]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

Agree with this.

I am looking to pick the best enrollment cutoff numbers, set it and forget it for a very very long time. The plan shifts where the population shifts.

I’m interested in the history of the changing of the football plan. Please fill me in on that.

In the late 1990s, Beulah was ready to grow into class A basketball, with Hazen also on the cusp, and Grafton destined to shrink to into class 'B.' With football being even more of a numbers game than basketball, a fourth division of football was added to give these schools a better landing spot.

AAA / AA / A / 9 man was born, along with the timeline to tinker with the plan every two years.

For the next decade or so, the NDHSAA prioritized even numbers and east/west balance in its divisions, for ease of scheduling. 16 teams in AAA and 16 in AA was the most common. This proved most problematic in AAA. TMCHS Belcourt was not competitive, and to make matters worse, was at one point assigned to AAA east! In a different iteration of the plan, Devils Lake was made to be the misfit 16th team.

The free and reduced lunch multiplier was born, with good intentions, to try and factor in socioeconomic status and culture to give more teams a chance to be competitive.

To avoid the problems at the bottom of AAA, the NDHSAA then shrunk AAA to consist of just 12 teams with no opt-ups (Shanley and St. Mary's) allowed. AAA was permitted to grow again when Fargo Davies, Bismarck Legacy and West Fargo Sheyenne came on board. However, the bottom of AAA (GF Central, GF Red River, Fargo North, Dickinson) and the top of AA (St. Mary's and Shanley) remained quite predictable.

The "opt down" was born, with strong support from the bolded schools above. The divisions were renamed.

11AA, 11A, 11B, 9 man, and don't forget non-sanctioned independent 6 man.

[Bisonguy06]

With all of the tinkering, what hasn't been tried?

1a) Enrollment triggers, rather than a set number of teams in each division.
1b) Acceptance of an odd number of teams in divisions

What do I oppose?

-Opting down. It currently 'rewards' schools who are not having success, but who do have the numbers to compete right where they're at, in my opinion.

What could I live with or without?

-Socioeconomic status multiplier. I'd scrap it, while drawing the enrollment cutoffs that would be favorable to TMCHS Belcourt. I could accept it being left in place.

[ndlionsfan]

I think the biggest hurdle we face is fear of change. The plan did pass the district chairs meeting 14-2 in one of those two years. I don't know what changed and why people changed their mind. I think that football is the easiest one for the NDHSAA to change and adjust. Why? Because each class has one title game. Easy to schedule. I don't believe that NDHSAA will add 6 man to the mix and play the title game at the same venue. Why? It's not easy.

I might be the only one who thinks this way, but the reasons there aren't 3 classes in basketball:
1. Fear of not making as much money
2. Basketball tournaments wouldn't fit in their nice 3 week window they have now, unless you're going to have the boys and girls tournaments on the same weekend and/or in the same venue. What would they do about TV if they did that? Again, fear of change.
3. NDHSAA wants volleyball to follow the same alignment as basketball. Volleyball isn't broken.
4. Afraid of the private schools. There are people with money that can get around NDHSAA's rules. Look at the cases where they grant and deny "hardships".

I know that people like myself are part of the problem. People like me will go to class B basketball tournaments no matter what teams are competing. Why? Because it's a family tradition and it's a longing for the way things used to be. We'll go and root for the Powers Lakes and Wilton Wings of the world. We long for the days of Hillsboro vs. Epping. We know deep down in our hearts that the chances of David winning are slim to none. But there's always that chance.

I'm not gung ho for three classes, to say the least.

But if it's done, 3 combined boys & girls tournaments on 3 weekends is absolutely the way to do it.
Super A
Super B
Super C
Those would be fun weekends for the schools involved at each level.

I agree completely. I haven't been to an entire Class B tournament weekend in years, but I wouldn't miss a weekend to see the best teams in both boys and girls in the smallest class play.

[magic man]

I feel that if we are going to have 4 classes, the top two need to be made up of more than just class A basketball schools. If 4 classes are what football needs to have (which might make the most sense I would have the cutoff lines be something like this with no multipliers:

AAA- 400 boys or higher (16 teams this year)
AA- 110 boys to 399 boys (14 teams)
A- 65 boys to 109 boys
9- 64 boys and under

I like this..

[WalkingStick]

I feel that if we are going to have 4 classes, the top two need to be made up of more than just class A basketball schools. If 4 classes are what football needs to have (which might make the most sense I would have the cutoff lines be something like this with no multipliers:

AAA- 400 boys or higher (16 teams this year)
AA- 110 boys to 399 boys (14 teams)
A- 65 boys to 109 boys
9- 64 boys and under

I like this..

I'm a visual person...need to see this typed out (using upcoming preliminary numbers; slight alteration using 65 and under for 9-man and 66-109 for A on this)

AAA (400+) - 16 Teams
Fargo Davies
WF Sheyenne
West Fargo
Shanley (opt up...we all know they would)
GF Central
Fargo North
GF Red River
Fargo South

Minot
Williston
Bismarck
Century
Legacy
Mandan
Dickinson
Jamestown

AA (110-399) - 16 Teams
Devils Lake
Valley City
Wahpeton
WF Horace
Central Cass
Kindred
Ellendale/Edgeley-Kulm
Grafton

Bismarck St. Mary's
Watford City
Turtle Mountain
Des Lacs-Burlington
Velva/Garrison
South Prairie-Max
Beulah
Stanley

A (66-109) - 41 Teams
Oak Grove
Lisbon
Northern Cass
Linton-HMB/S-Z
Oakes
Sargent County
Tri-State
Park River-FL (I think they'd drop V-E stay out of moving up)
Carrington
Hillsboro-Central Valley
Thompson
May-Port-CG
Langdon/Edmore/Munich
Hatton-Northwood
Dunseith
St. John
Nelson County
Four Winds
North Prairie
Ray/Powers Lake
Harvey-Wells County
Bishop Ryan
Rugby
Nedrose
Bottineau
Surrey
Kenmare/Bowbells/Burke Central
Tioga
Dickinson Trinity
Killdeer
Hazen
Bowman County
Heart River
Southern McLean
New Salem-Almont
Richardton-Taylor-Hebron
Central McLean
South Border
Hettinger-Scranton
Mott-Regent/New England

9-Man (less than 65) - 25 Teams
Wyndmere-Lidgerwood
LaMoure-LM
Hankinson
Richland
Enderlin
Griggs-Midkota
Maple River
Larimore
Cavalier
Midway-Minto
North Border
North Star
New Rockford-Sheyenne
Benson County
Kidder County
Napoleon/Gackle-Streeter
Grant County-Flasher
Beach
TGU
Westhope-Newburg-Glenburn
Mohall-Lansford-Sherwood
Lewis & Clark
Divide County
Alexander
Parshall

Maybe a little more alteration to balance A & 9-Man just a bit more (maybe 70 boys instead of 65)

[maddog1971]

So basically giving St. Mary's the state title again for the next 20 years.

[Bisonguy06]

North Dakota has big schools, small schools, and not much in between.

In any football plan, the division that we know as AA should have the fewest number of teams.

In any three division basketball plan, the middle division should have the fewest number of teams.

Anything else is just blind to the landscape of our state.

[WalkingStick]

So basically giving St. Mary's the state title again for the next 20 years.

No matter what 'option' is used...we aren't going to like some school in a division.

HCV still down in A...no complaints there?

[ndlionsfan]

EEK, South Prairie, and Stanley should not be AA in any plan. There is no way they would compete.

That plan also moves 18 current 9man teams into 11man. No way that can work with participation numbers.

[maddog1971]

So basically giving St. Mary's the state title again for the next 20 years.

No matter what 'option' is used...we aren't going to like some school in a division.

HCV still down in A...no complaints there?

I completely agree. HCV will win plenty of state titles in that division. They have a PROGRAM..... same with Langdon....

I really like this year because you have power house traditional programs for many years in 11 B..... Harvey ... Velva.... HCV.... Landgon.... Linton... Thompson.. Beulah.... Rugby.... Bishop Ryan.... Carrington.... Park River....
Not saying all these teams are very good this year but they have been in the past and maybe in the near future will be again.... I like it as it is.

[ndfbfan70]

So basically giving St. Mary's the state title again for the next 20 years.

No matter what 'option' is used...we aren't going to like some school in a division.

HCV still down in A...no complaints there?

I completely agree. HCV will win plenty of state titles in that division. They have a PROGRAM..... same with Langdon....

I really like this year because you have power house traditional programs for many years in 11 B..... Harvey ... Velva.... HCV.... Landgon.... Linton... Thompson.. Beulah.... Rugby.... Bishop Ryan.... Carrington.... Park River....
Not saying all these teams are very good this year but they have been in the past and maybe in the near future will be again.... I like it as it is.

6+ Years ago Langdon went through a stretch of under .500 seasons. HCV in A(before the latest up and then down from AA to A) was slightly above average. I don't think the problems are with those teams. The problems are with the teams with towns that are growing by leaps and bounds( I guess that could include HCV) and have facilities nicer than the facilities that we see in any small college in North Dakota(ie Central Cass). The 4 class system was fine to most and the NDHSAA took a system with a few gripes and made many gripes to please a few.

The problem is when you put traditionally below .500 programs in a class with teams of 35-60 kids that were successful at a higher level you kill those programs. Before they, for the most part, were competing with like teams now they as a team possibly barely surviving, are competing against teams that there is little to no chance of winning even on a good year. Teams with 40-60 kids on a team, if moved up, may not like it but will still compete at a higher level. The smaller 11 man teams, especially the co-ops playing the bigger programs in A(or B as it is known now) playing against the top levell teams moving down could potentially kill their program.

My solution. The review committee allows movement every year for traditionally losing programs, I know this sounds like a participation trophy, but ultimately the goal is to make as many successful programs in the state as possible so kids can truly enjoy this wonderful game of football. Right now, in many states, football is on life support. Try to keep it in as many towns as possible.

I think making another 9 man class would do this. Take your smaller 11 man programs and move them down. Create your biggest class at 9A and let 9B be the smallest schools, heck you might get some 6 man and independent teams back.

If you want to go a step further take the 2 teams in the traditionally class B classes and move them up if they go to a state championship(think slow pitch adult softball) as far up as the old AA class.

This is my not so intelligent observation.

[The Schwab]

The above post is pretty much spot on in my opinion. If the goal is to have the "Class A" schools make up 11AA and 11A I think we need 5 classes. The class B schools should be made up of an 11 man class and 2 9 man classes. I think teams should be able to opt up. Opting down in the first year of a new plan should never be an option, that's one of my biggest problems with this "new plan". That and the fact that Fargo and GF public schools aren't in the top class.

[WalkingStick]

"Not so intelligent observation" = Some very good thoughts to consider.

[classB4ever]

Let’s get 12 divisions in football. Like wrestling. Creates parity and participation. Oh wait. Once you say that, people’s minds start overloading. Why do you have weight divisions in wrestling? To be fair and have parity? Increase participation? Let’s have 2 divisions in wrestling. 150 and 250. Should be fair, correct? Think about that when you start hearing the age old gripe about “everyone needs a participation ribbon.” And ask a wrestler what they think. Only thing is, wrestlers might just say let’s do it.

Point is: Talking about 5 divisions in football but 2 divisions in basketball makes my head spin. Let’s do 1 division in everything. Including wrestling. Seems fair

[Bisonguy06]

So basically giving St. Mary's the state title again for the next 20 years.

No matter what 'option' is used...we aren't going to like some school in a division.

HCV still down in A...no complaints there?

I completely agree. HCV will win plenty of state titles in that division. They have a PROGRAM..... same with Langdon....

I really like this year because you have power house traditional programs for many years in 11 B..... Harvey ... Velva.... HCV.... Landgon.... Linton... Thompson.. Beulah.... Rugby.... Bishop Ryan.... Carrington.... Park River....
Not saying all these teams are very good this year but they have been in the past and maybe in the near future will be again.... I like it as it is.

6+ Years ago Langdon went through a stretch of under .500 seasons. HCV in A(before the latest up and then down from AA to A) was slightly above average. I don't think the problems are with those teams. The problems are with the teams with towns that are growing by leaps and bounds( I guess that could include HCV) and have facilities nicer than the facilities that we see in any small college in North Dakota(ie Central Cass). The 4 class system was fine to most and the NDHSAA took a system with a few gripes and made many gripes to please a few.

The problem is when you put traditionally below .500 programs in a class with teams of 35-60 kids that were successful at a higher level you kill those programs. Before they, for the most part, were competing with like teams now they as a team possibly barely surviving, are competing against teams that there is little to no chance of winning even on a good year. Teams with 40-60 kids on a team, if moved up, may not like it but will still compete at a higher level. The smaller 11 man teams, especially the co-ops playing the bigger programs in A(or B as it is known now) playing against the top levell teams moving down could potentially kill their program.

My solution. The review committee allows movement every year for traditionally losing programs, I know this sounds like a participation trophy, but ultimately the goal is to make as many successful programs in the state as possible so kids can truly enjoy this wonderful game of football. Right now, in many states, football is on life support. Try to keep it in as many towns as possible.

I think making another 9 man class would do this. Take your smaller 11 man programs and move them down. Create your biggest class at 9A and let 9B be the smallest schools, heck you might get some 6 man and independent teams back.

If you want to go a step further take the 2 teams in the traditionally class B classes and move them up if they go to a state championship(think slow pitch adult softball) as far up as the old AA class.

This is my not so intelligent observation.

“Ultimately the goal is as many successful programs as possible…”

That is not a goal that I support. Also, it’s impossible. Every game has a loser for every winner. It’s already the case that more than half of North Dakota’s football teams make the playoffs. We’ve already gone too far in that direction. Exhibit A is 2-7 Minot making this year’s playoffs.

The goal is the old “it doesn’t matter whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game.”

[ndfbfan70]

So basically giving St. Mary's the state title again for the next 20 years.

No matter what 'option' is used...we aren't going to like some school in a division.

HCV still down in A...no complaints there?

I completely agree. HCV will win plenty of state titles in that division. They have a PROGRAM..... same with Langdon....

I really like this year because you have power house traditional programs for many years in 11 B..... Harvey ... Velva.... HCV.... Landgon.... Linton... Thompson.. Beulah.... Rugby.... Bishop Ryan.... Carrington.... Park River....
Not saying all these teams are very good this year but they have been in the past and maybe in the near future will be again.... I like it as it is.

6+ Years ago Langdon went through a stretch of under .500 seasons. HCV in A(before the latest up and then down from AA to A) was slightly above average. I don't think the problems are with those teams. The problems are with the teams with towns that are growing by leaps and bounds( I guess that could include HCV) and have facilities nicer than the facilities that we see in any small college in North Dakota(ie Central Cass). The 4 class system was fine to most and the NDHSAA took a system with a few gripes and made many gripes to please a few.

The problem is when you put traditionally below .500 programs in a class with teams of 35-60 kids that were successful at a higher level you kill those programs. Before they, for the most part, were competing with like teams now they as a team possibly barely surviving, are competing against teams that there is little to no chance of winning even on a good year. Teams with 40-60 kids on a team, if moved up, may not like it but will still compete at a higher level. The smaller 11 man teams, especially the co-ops playing the bigger programs in A(or B as it is known now) playing against the top levell teams moving down could potentially kill their program.

My solution. The review committee allows movement every year for traditionally losing programs, I know this sounds like a participation trophy, but ultimately the goal is to make as many successful programs in the state as possible so kids can truly enjoy this wonderful game of football. Right now, in many states, football is on life support. Try to keep it in as many towns as possible.

I think making another 9 man class would do this. Take your smaller 11 man programs and move them down. Create your biggest class at 9A and let 9B be the smallest schools, heck you might get some 6 man and independent teams back.

If you want to go a step further take the 2 teams in the traditionally class B classes and move them up if they go to a state championship(think slow pitch adult softball) as far up as the old AA class.

This is my not so intelligent observation.

“[b]Ultimately the goal is as many successful programs as possible…”

That is not a goal that I support. Also, it’s impossible. Every game has a loser for every winner. It’s already the case that more than half of North Dakota’s football teams make the playoffs. We’ve already gone too far in that direction. Exhibit A is 2-7 Minot making this year’s playoffs.[/b]

The goal is the old “it doesn’t matter whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game.”

By successful I mean high participation numbers. Winning may play a big factor in participation but not the only one.

[maddog1971]

After watching Langdon Play a number of times this year... Yes Numbers are important.... very important... but I will still claim that Programs make you successful. Langdon is very impressive with how they play.... The coaching staff puts a foot in their behind and they have parents that support the program. That helps get kids involved and take pride in the program. Put schools where you think in a division. Most on the board think is fair to have schools play against other schools ... School one has 300 kids and school b has 120..... that is fair .... but 120 going against 90 is not fair????

I honestly don't care except for I think St. Mary's with their success over the last 30 years .... tells me they should be playing in a upper division like Shanley elects to do. I have serious respect for Shanley...
I think the privates need to play up....
That is again why we need a 3rd division on basketball.

[Bisonguy06]

There aren’t twelve public schools in the state that have 9-12 enrollment between 250 and 750 students.
If there were, we’d have a middle class.
South Dakota has a third class because it has a middle. We don’t.

This stuff isn’t complicated.

There are 16 public schools that have between 200 and 700 though. Like you said, it's not complicated.