2009-10 football realignment

[larrybird33]

And before you throw your next low blow, I better add that I understand that the Coal Bowl game will probably continue. Instead of being a huge rivalry game with playoff implications played on the last week of the regular season, it'll be a nonconference game played early in the year and played for nothing but pride. Beulah and Hazen are basically twin cities (twin towns, I guess). Now, they're in different divisions. What a shame.

Devils Lake won't replace the Coal Bowl, it'll replace one of Beulah's other opponents. I get it.

[steve34]

The more I listen to the small schools b***h and moan, the more I think it's time for the big schools to form their own association. They just don't need the NDHSAA anymore. The majority of the people in the state understand that Fargo (3), West Fargo, Grand Forks (2), Jamestown, Bismarck (2), Mandan, Dickinson, Minot, Williston, and Belcourt are in a different league than everyone else. I don't think anyone in these communities would complain if they competed in their own association for their own state title, free and clear of the NDHSAA.

The small schools in the HSAA continually hold the state back from progress. It's too bad. If the small schools really understood everything the large cities in the state do for the small schools. Without the large cities, the HSAA would have substantial problems finding corporate sponsors, like US Bank or Farmers Union Insurance. Without large markets to sell to, these businesses wouldn't fork over the sponsorship dollars, and the small schools would see their blessed state tournaments erode in quality and atmosphere. And it will get to that. The large schools are understanding all the time they are in a different situation. If the HSAA doesn't come together and fix problems, 12-14 schools that represent 50-60% of the state's popluation will no longer be in the NDHSAA.

[ndlionsfan]

It will never come to that. The NDHSAA won't let it. If the larger schools ever even threatened to do this (which I highly doubt they ever would) the NDHSAA would find a way to make it miserable and almost impossible to do. To me, it sounds like this is your opinion and not the opinion of the larger schools in the first place. While they disagree with NDHSAA at times, I'm sure they are still very happy with all that the NDHSAA does for them.

[steve34]

The HSAA has no say in the matter. If the schools want to leave, they want to leave. And trying to convince them that the same path to equity can be used for Fargo South and Forman is the first step towards making it happen.

[larrybird33]

The more I listen to the small schools b***h and moan, the more I think it's time for the big schools to form their own association. They just don't need the NDHSAA anymore. The majority of the people in the state understand that Fargo (3), West Fargo, Grand Forks (2), Jamestown, Bismarck (2), Mandan, Dickinson, Minot, Williston, and Belcourt are in a different league than everyone else. I don't think anyone in these communities would complain if they competed in their own association for their own state title, free and clear of the NDHSAA.

How does Belcourt make the list of top-tier schools, but Devils Lake and Wahpeton do not? Heck, DL and Wahpeton might even offer more activities than Belcourt. I know for a fact that DL and Wahpeton offer hockey, softball, and tennis, none of which are offered in Belcourt.

Furthermore, Fargo Shanley and Bismarck St. Mary's are also going to be just fine down the road. The cities of Fargo and Bismarck are growing rapidly. Their enrollments should hold steady or even increase. There's just no need to move them out of AAA football.

[larrybird33]

I'm not sure about softball, but I stand by my point.

[steve34]

Belcourt is larger in overall enrollment than Devils Lake, and only the schools of Belcourt's size and larger are over 600 students in the state. But, for the sake of argument, I'll allow you to throw Belcourt out of the mix. There is still no denying that there is a natural difference between the top enrollments (over Belcourt) and everyone else.

I fully support the big schools lobbying for a system that works for them. Otherwise, they will continue lose games, and lose their ability to get their kids on the field, because the HSAA is hellbent on fixing things for every little small school before really overhauling the system. With the enrollment standards that are currently in place, Shanley and St. Mary's could one day "Belcourt" the big schools and say, "No more. We're out." That brings Valley City and Devils Lake back to AAA, and they will have nothing to do with them either, choosing to "Belcourt" the bigs. In the end, you have a system that causes the AAA teams to lose games, just like this year.

This board always caters to the small schools, and most of you miss the big picture. Little Johnny at Fargo South has just as much a right to play the same number of games as Little Johnny at Hillsboro. When South's Johnny gets screwed because some school pulls out of the EDC, it's textbook inequity. You all applaude when some small school fights a big school moving into their class, and none of you realize that, whether or not there's equity in the competition, at least those kids at that school got to play. South's kids frickin' drove to Edina to play a 4A suburbian Minnesota school and took a bye week because of Belcourt. How is that equity? The big schools have every right to seek out a system that is the best for their kids, and this is the path they chose.

Here's a question for you: Instead of b***hing and moaning over AAA getting smaller, why not argue that AA could expand? Find a system that keeps Hazen and Watford up, and still accomodates the other schools coming down. Like you said, there's no real reason that we have to have a perfect scenario in the number of teams. You won't see me complain about a robust AA class that has all the teams in it this year plus Belcourt, St. Mary's, Shanley, and Wahpeton, Lisbon, and Kindred. Larrybird33, why default to attacking the big schools for what they want? Why not think outside the box? You're representing the same closed-mindedness that won't allow us to fix basketball and volleyball.

[Hinsa]

Excuse me for not bowing down to you Steve. I'm one of those one room school house people that is unappreciative of everything the big schools do for my town.

Do you realize who pays the majority of the taxes in this state? LANDOWNERS. And where is the majority of the land? Surrounding those one room school houses. So don't tell me what the big cities are doing for me.

Do you realize why USBank and Farmers Union sponsor the state tournaments? Because of viewership. Which tournament has the highest viewership? The State "B" basketball tournament. Which tournaments are most highly attended? The State B tournaments. Who attends or watches the Class A tournaments? The parents of the players and a few interested bystanders. Look at the attendance figures - they support me. The VAST majority of people in Fargo, Grand Forks, Minot, Bismarck, etc. don't even know when the state tournaments are played. 75% of the people in the one room schoolhouses could tell you when the B tournaments are played. So don't tell me what the big cities are doing for me.

Where do you think 80% of the people in the big cities in North Dakota came from? Those one room school houses. They got their education in those little rooms and then moved to the big city to earn fame and fortune. Are those people passionate about North, Century, Red River, South, Minot High, etc.? NO! But they keep in touch with what their one room schoolhouse is doing this year. So don't tell me what the big cities are doing for me.

Your statement that we should all realize what the big cities are doing for us is one of the most arrogant, pompous, narrow-minded statements I have heard in a long time. And you say the people in the one room schoolhouses are narrow-minded? HUH!

And your statement that everyone should co-op and play 11-man. If it is really about the kids, you are contradicting yourself. Let's say a 9-man school has 18 kids out for football. That means that 50% (9/18)of the kids out for the sport are participating at any one time. Now co-op 2 of those schools and play 11-man. Now you have less than 33% (11/36) of the kids out playing at any one time. Your participation rate just went down. If it's all about the kids, don't you want the participation rate as high as possible?

Good grief Steve, just take your top 12 or whatever, go form your own league, and see who cares. Most of the state would just yawn, including the 80% of the residents of the cities that came from the one room schoolhouses.

You have a very overblown image of just how important those few schools are.

[larrybird33]

I don't know if you realize this Steve, but the distance from Fargo to Edina is roughly the same as the distance from Williston to Jamestown or Grand Forks. It's the same as the distance from Dickinson to Rapid City, SD, and it's much shorter than the distance from Devils Lake to Dickinson Trinity. And from the sound of it, Fargo South got to see some great competition. The Fargo schools really have many options for nonconference opponents. St. Cloud, Sioux Falls, Aberdeen, and the Twin Cities schools are all within range. Nobody out west has any sympathy for Fargo South's 'long' trip to Edina. Western 2A and 3A schools routinely travel that far for their games already, and the 12 team AAA is adding even more miles to our buses. It doesn't seem like too much to ask AAA east to play as a 7 team league for two years until Fargo Davies arrives. The east teams would just have to find one nonconference opponent to sign a two year agreement (home and away)

[larrybird33]

Maybe on the basketball board you can explain how Class B basketball is 'broken' when tiny Parshall won the title two years ago and Turtle Lake-Mercer made the championship game last year. Class B basketball seems ok to me, but I'm sure it needs some kind of huge overhaul. Please enlighten me.

[ndlionsfan]

The HSAA has no say in the matter. If the schools want to leave, they want to leave. And trying to convince them that the same path to equity can be used for Fargo South and Forman is the first step towards making it happen.

You are never going to have complete equity in any situation. That's why I don't envy the people on the board that have to make the decisions. No matter what they do, they are going to tick someone off. Also, you can't just think of the NDHSAA as only for sports. There is so much else that they do for the member schools. If they do such a poor job of everything, then why are 99% of all the schools in the state members?

[steve34]

If viewership is the key for TV on state tournaments, then why do the stations say that, in a three class system, they would NOT cover the bottom class. Wow, some viewership for those one-room schoolhouses. Apparantly the stations aren't seeing the same numbers you're spewing, or they'd threaten to nix the big schools.

Your numbers are a joke. Participation is not a starting job. So typical of a b shot mind. Thirty-six kids could participate, and they'd get their full compliment of games. It's not 11 of 36 participating. It's 36 of 36. Sure, 11 would be on the field at any one time, but who's to say only 11 would get on the field period? When Fargo South didn't get to play, 50-some kids were robbed a game.

So we finally get at the crux of your argument. I've got land, so I get to call the shots. As if the people that own homes in any of North Dakota's largest cities don't pay taxes because they don't farm. I was completely unaware that you landowners were picking up the tab for the whole state. I guess I better call my city, county, and school government bodies and ask why it is my tax bill is so high when I just read that the landowners pay all the taxes in the state. Not to mention that not one penny of sales tax money is generated out of a farmhouse.

And finally, the biggest can go form their own league. They will be around a lot longer than you, and someday, they'll be the ONLY ballgame in town. Enjoy the decline. We'll see you on the 11-man football team in 10 years or so. Until then, keep that positive mental attitude going.

[ndlionsfan]

Yes, Fargo South got robbed of a game because Belcourt dropped their schedule and it was too late to get anyone else. But why can't South play more MN schools? It would cut down on travel costs and give them some new competition.

[NDplayin]

Apparently there are many people on here very concerned with “what is being done for me.” Let’s step away from that for a second. I do not care who gets the corporate sponsors, I do not care if there are corporate sponsors. Having the games on tv is nice, but I most definitely do not care who is watching the game and where they live. If they get taken off the air I will miss them, but I will listen to the radio, or if it really matters to me personally, I will go to the game. Above all else, as it pertains to this argument, I most certainly do not care who is and is not paying more taxes.

I also do not care which North Dakota towns are and aren’t depopulating. I could care less that head to head Fargo South would beat Harvey, and if you think that makes a 3A game more fun to watch I really do not care. If you think that would be more fun watch your local small school play because you personally know 90% of the kids on the field, I really do not care. In addition, I do not even give a rip how many classrooms are in the school building or if the football team in question plays 11 men at a time or 9.

In fact, when it comes to this topic there is only one thing I care about. What would be the best for all of the students of North Dakota? Which brings up another point, I don’t care if the student lives in the middle of Fargo or on a dairy farm 35 miles outside of New Salem, I want what is best for the students.
Now I think at the very least we can all agree on one thing, there is no such thing as a perfect system. No matter where you draw the lines or make the rules there will always be minor inequities which we must accept and deal with. However, I am interested (and I think the NDHSAA should be interested) in finding the system that is MOST equitable and MOST just to ALL of the students in North Dakota.

There is no question in my mind that having a 15 team 3A is not the perfect situation. I recognize it would make scheduling inconvenient and I would rather not have any North Dakota team have to take a week off. However, I do not see the 15 team 3A as the absolute disaster that Steve34 saw, and I think the new realignment is too drastic of a measure. After all, the top class in Montana had 13 schools in it for decades. Just last year a new school was built in Kalispell which made 14, but I am not even sure that school is playing a varsity schedule yet. After all these years, how has football in that state managed not to completely implode???

The best analogy I can think of to express my point of view is medical. I saw the problem of having a 15 team 3A as a paper-cut. A paper-cut that needed a temporary band-aid (ex. an extra non-conference game or bye week) until it naturally healed on its own (ex. Fargo Davies gets built in two years). Instead, the NDHSAA has chosen to try to heal the paper cut with a risky and invasive surgery. The surgery to 3A’s paper cut was successful, but in the process the NDHSAA dropped all of the sharp surgical tools onto 2A and 1A, causing injuries much more severe than a paper-cut.

What those injuries are have been listed over and over by many people on this thread and I will try to avoid being repetitive. What would be nice is to have Steve34 or another proponent of the new system actually explain how the more major injuries are justifiable just to fix a paper-cut. So far, all that has been explained is how much more “important” 3A is to North Dakota than any of the other classes.

[NDplayin]

Steve34,

Now that I am done being politically correct it is your numbers that are a joke. I will use the same participation numbers you used in your previous post. When 36 boys participate in football at a school like Harvey, that is 36 out of 70 boys in the school (51.43%). I would also bet Harvey has more than 36 boys out. When Fargo South suits up 50 boys, that is 50 out of the 1037 boys in the school (4.82%). Now you tell me which football program is providing more kids the opportunity to learn those valuable life skills like work ethic, team work, and discipline? That isn't Fargo South's fault, there are many advantages to going to a large school but also many disadvantages. But, if you want to make this arguement about what is best for the largest number of students you are going to lose the numbers game in embarrassing fashion.

[Hinsa]

If viewership is the key for TV on state tournaments, then why do the stations say that, in a three class system, they would NOT cover the bottom class. Wow, some viewership for those one-room schoolhouses. Apparantly the stations aren't seeing the same numbers you're spewing, or they'd threaten to nix the big schools.

Your numbers are a joke. Participation is not a starting job. So typical of a b shot mind. Thirty-six kids could participate, and they'd get their full compliment of games. It's not 11 of 36 participating. It's 36 of 36. Sure, 11 would be on the field at any one time, but who's to say only 11 would get on the field period? When Fargo South didn't get to play, 50-some kids were robbed a game.

So we finally get at the crux of your argument. I've got land, so I get to call the shots. As if the people that own homes in any of North Dakota's largest cities don't pay taxes because they don't farm. I was completely unaware that you landowners were picking up the tab for the whole state. I guess I better call my city, county, and school government bodies and ask why it is my tax bill is so high when I just read that the landowners pay all the taxes in the state. Not to mention that not one penny of sales tax money is generated out of a farmhouse.

And finally, the biggest can go form their own league. They will be around a lot longer than you, and someday, they'll be the ONLY ballgame in town. Enjoy the decline. We'll see you on the 11-man football team in 10 years or so. Until then, keep that positive mental attitude going.

Viewership - my viewership numbers are based on a TWO CLASS SYSTEM. You brought up the 3-class system. In a 2 class basketball system, the "B" has much larger viewership and attendance. This is a documented FACT. If the "B" was fragmented into 2 more classes, you are correct that there would be reduced interest in the smallest schools. THAT'S WHEY WE DON'T HAVE A 3-CLASS SYSTEM!

Participation numbers: I've seen what happens at co-ops of smaller schools - they go find the best athletes and play them both ways. So you don't get 36 out of 36 participating, you get 15 at the most. YOUR NUMBERS ARE A JOKE!

And the crux of the arguement: I said the landowners pay the MAJORITY of the taxes. You said the big cities are doing so much for the small towns. My point is the landowners are doing more for the cities tax-wise than the big cities are doing for the small towns. As for taxes not being generated in a farmhouse - does the farmer pay tax on seed? Does the farmer pay tax on chemicals, farm equipment, and fuel? And that farmer isn't paying those taxes in the city, the farmer is paying those taxes in the small towns. As for the decline, I live in a vibrant town that is GROWING. We have seen 25 new houses built in and around our town in the last 10 years. Not south Fargo numbers, of course, but growth none-the-less. My school will be around just as long as any city school. It is not going away.

So I AM going to keep my positive mental attitude. I wish you would find one as well, Steve.

[Flip]

As for in-state opponents, Williston's closest nonconference AAA opponent...

Why is it Williston MUST play AAA schools? Why couldn't they play Watford City or Hazen? MN, and probably other states, play outside their class all the time.

[larrybird33]

They could play a smaller school if they wanted to. I don't think they'd want to. I don't think that playing a small school prepares your team for your AAA conference schedule. Yes, a strong AA school could give some AAA teams a ballgame, but the AAA school is in a no-win situation. It doesn't look good to beat up on a team from a lower division, and it looks even worse if you lose to that team.

Williston will continue playing Sidney, MT. Their other nonconference games will be AAA east schools or Montana schools (Glendive or Miles City, perhaps). They could also play a western AAA team twice in a year, with one of the two games being a nonconference game. These aren't the best options, but that's their situation.

[steve34]

A previous post said only 11 participate in a co-op. Participation is the number of kids that suit up, not just the number that make it on the field. And the "both ways" argument actually works to my advantage, not yours, because 9-man teams do the same thing. Hillsboro's starting lineup this year was 10 total kids. Eight played both ways. If they were 11 man, by the sheer mechanics of the game, there would be more "on the field" participation.

Note--I'm not suggesting Hillsboro should be 11 man. It was just an easy example to use.

Oh, and as to your documented facts: You may be right, and for the sake of argument, I will concede the point that the Class "B" tournaments are better attended and have larger TV audiences. However, let's talk trends. See, the problem I have with B shot people is that they tend to think about things in a "20 years ago" mentality. On Friday, the NDHSAA had a meeting of the Board of Directors. While this is off the topic of football for a moment, please allow me to continue. At the meeting, discussions took place on how to make the classes of athletics more equitable. CLASS B ADMINISTRATORS ADMITTED that the TRENDS suggest that the CLASS B STATE BOYS BASKETBALL TOURNAMENT is LOSING ATTENDANCE AND VIEWERSHIP.

Is it Class "B"s fault? No. Personally, I think it's a Title IX thing. If girls basketball were still in the fall, I think we would have both strong attendance at every tournament and a three class system. I don't think this would even be an issue. But the current tournament structure is too much, and if something isn't done soon, the HSAA will begin to feel the pinch. All of you B shots out there should go to your administrators and ask them about their average rate of reimbursement from the HSAA lately. Ask them if that check is getting bigger or smaller.

Now, back to football. I proposed an idea on this thread has had two main points that none of you, NONE OF YOU, have addressed. Sure, I've been harsh on those that advocate solely for small towns. But, let me again throw out the alternative, and ask you to please tell me why you will not consider it:

Expand "AA" football. Why not let the top 12 be the top 12 until they become the top 14 or 16. In the meantime, lets welcome in Wahpeton, Shanley, Lisbon, Kindred, St. Mary's and Belcourt, and keep Watford City and Hazen. If I recall, Region II (western division) was a team short this season. We'd have a new west: Bottineau, Belcourt, Carrington, Hazen, Watford City, Beulah, Bowman County, Standing Rock, Trinity, and Minot Ryan. The east would be Wahpeton, Shanley, Lisbon, Kindred, Valley City, Grafton, Fargo Oak Grove, Central Cass, and Devils Lake. 10 teams in each region (allowing Rugby to drop), 9 games in the regular season, perfect. We deal with the geography by moving Devils Lake back to the east. Sure, it's not perfect, but Jamestown playing Williston isn't either, and they manage. The Hazen-Beulah game would still be worth something other than pride. The defending AA champs stay where they are successful.

Why can't this work?

[larrybird33]

We've really opened up a whole bunch of new topics here, and maybe they should be dealt with separately. Maybe we can deal with basketball on the basketball board. I am open to some changes being made in class B basketball.

Steve, I think that your "expand 2A" proposal has been addressed. That would definitely be a healthy 2A class, but I don't like what it would do to 3A. Four reasons:

1) I don't like the idea of only 12 teams competing for one trophy. Your plan splits the 32 largest schools into divisions of 12 and 20 teams. I'd prefer 16 and 16. Agree to disagree on that one.

2) A 12 team AAA creates more nonconference games in AAA and forces teams to travel farther to fill those games. We've both provided examples - Williston to Jamestown/Grand Forks, Fargo South to Edina, ect.

3) AA would have zero nonconference games. I think teams need a nonconference game or two, (but not four) to work out the kinks.

4) AA would include teams that have been competitive (St. Mary's and Shanley) and very successful (Wahpeton) at the AAA level.

I think there will come a time when Wahpeton, St. Mary's, and Shanley will be clear-cut 2A schools. I think that time is 10+ years down the road, when we have Fargo Davies and additional high schools in West Fargo and Bismarck in place. I'm saying that the NDHSAA's move was premature. The restructuring could have waited, in my opinion.

[steve34]

There's a point where we have some agreement. The part I don't like about the new plan is that it does not allow for opt ups. Personally, I think if Harvey can opt up to 1A, Shanley can opt up to 3A. I do agree that teams should not be denied to ability to opt up just for ease of scheduling.

But Wahpeton is a different story. I've had three different conversations with Mike McCall, their coach. Their team will look much differently next year and in several years to come. What you describe as premature actually may spare Wahpeton going through what other schools when through after the North Star fell apart (VC, Devils Lake, Belcourt). Wahpeton has about half the numbers they currently have in the lower grades, due to a huge graduating class.

Also, the non-conference games are not the problem at 3A you describe. They will operate on a travelling alliance plan. Three west schools will play the same three east schools and the other three west schools will do the same.

Example: Dickinson, Mandan, and Bismarck High will play Jamestown, West Fargo, and Fargo South. Then, Williston, Minot, and Century will play Red River, Central, and North.

Now, that's not the actual alliance. But the alliance reduces your need to fill 4 non-conference games to one. It's already in operation, but only on a two-team alliance level. I point this out because you make it sound like the teams will be desperate to find four team to play. The plan has three non-league games built in. The final game is reserved for South-Edina, Williston-Sydney, and so on. Yes, there's travel involved, but 3A is already travelling, so travel is a non-issue. Travel is a 2A-1A issue in football. You described it well in your Hazen-Beulah example. It doesn't make any sense to have Hazen drive right past Beulah to play their league games. But 3A is already there.

You're right: We'll agree to disagree about 12 teams playing for one trophy. If the natural division of teams has 12 on top, it makes no sense to make 4 schools get kicked all the time to justify the class. If there are 12 competitive teams and 4 door mats in a class, it's still only a 12 team class, no matter how you dress it up.

[NDplayin]

I agree with Larrybird33 that this is not the thread we should be getting into a 2 or 3 class bball system. Not that it isn't a good arguement, but we can pick it up in a basketball thread.

Steve34, I am happy to give credit where credit is due. I do think your 12 and 20 plan is a better plan that the 12 and 16 plan the NDHSAA resently adopted. Still, I think that neither plan is as good as the former 16-16 plan, even if that plan had to be temporarily adapted to be 15-16 for the next two years. Larrybird33's four points show consideration for both 3A and 2A, and it still appears to me that the old system was not only more competitively balanced at all levels, but also satisfied more of the concerns about travel and what not.

In short Steve34, I would rather see your 12-20 plan than the new plan. Unfortunately, I still can't see what was so broken in the former system that the NDHSAA found the need to change anything at all. Belcourt dropping was a very minor problem that had a natural solution ready if just a little patience could have been exercised. Again, no plan is every going to be perfect for every school, but I think the most perfect plan for all schools ,3A, 2A, and 1A alike, is the former 16-16 system which the NDHSAA hastily threw out.

[larrybird33]

Under the travel alliance that you just described Steve, Williston will get two of those three games at home one year, and will play two of the three on the road the next. So once every two years, Williston will have to go to Grand Forks AND Fargo (or Grand Forks twice) for regular season games in the same year. I don't think I'm overstating the travel concerns in AAA under the new plan.

[NDplayin]

Steve34,

You say that it makes no sense to have four teams constantly getting kicked just to justify a class. I would be able to agree with that if it were true. I see Shanley, St. Mary's, and Whapeton as competitive in the 3A class. I believe every word you say about your conversations with Whapeton's coach, but that sounds like a lot of speculation to me. Maybe Whapeton will have a couple down years after this, but maybe the strength of their program will carry them through. Who are we to say that if they do have a couple down years that their Junior High classes won't turn it back around four years from now? All of this is speculation, and I don't like the idea of causing so many problems at the 2A and 1A level just because there is the possibilty that Whapeton might eventually someday maybe possibly become less competitive at that level. Instead, I would rather us wait to see if that happens and then deal with it.

Again, this thread only applies to our football classification system, and I just can not agree with you that the top "12" schools in enrollment belong together. If you are going to make that claim, you should be able to explain how Whapeton, Shanley, and St. Mary's have all had much more football success than Dickinson High in the last couple of years. The 16 (or 15) team 3A seemed to be competitive from top to bottom to me. I didn't see any four teams getting kicked all the time.

[steve34]

We're getting closer on the numbers. Again, if you read my last post, I said I disagreed on Shanley and St. Mary's not being allowed to opt up. So, now we're at 14. Wahpeton and Belcourt would be 15 and 16. Belcourt did get kicked all the time. Wahpeton didn't, but the trend is that they will not have the depth to compete in the future.

I'm not here to advocate for 12 and only 12. 12 could have been 14 with the opt ups. So, I'll agree with you on St. Mary's and Shanley. But the principle of 12 is a good one. The top 16 are:

South, North, Wahpeton, West Fargo, Central, Red River, Devils Lake, Valley City

Bismarck High, Century, Minot, Williston, Dickinson, Mandan, Jamestown, Belcourt.

Notice that three of those teams didn't compete in 3A this year. Why? Two opt ups allowed Valley City and Devils Lake to opt down, and Belcourt withdrew. Had your prinicple of 16 applied to 2008, in it's entirety (no Shanley or St. Marys), Valley City and Devils Lake would have been kicked around, despite their success. If Watford City could throttle Valley like they did, can you imagine what would have happened to them on a weekly basis in the EDC? It would have been exactly what was happening to Devils Lake, and they asked to be let out. In two years, the Firebirds are runners-up and semi-finalists. They have not dominated AA, and they would have been shelled in AAA. That's the ACTUAL REAL theory of 16. Shanley and St. Mary's don't count in the top 16 for planning purposes.

Sorry, but your theory of 16 is flawed. 12 with opt ups would have been fine, but 12 will do.