A Better Plan

The teams in Class AA.

A Better Plan

Postby heimer » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:12 pm

Screw it, I don't care how many people trash me on this board for the following suggestion about football.

And, before I get there, let me just say that I have been labeled a Valley City apologist in the past because I'm originally from there. This is not motivated by their likely assignment to Region II (west) of AA football. If the plan is the plan, that's where they belong, and they'll be just fine. I believe in more classes, not fewer, and I'm not going to abandon that premise because of a regional shift.

That all being said, the coaches got it wrong when they voted to expand AAA to 16 teams with the addition of Legacy and Sheyenne.

Seriously, I know some great people at the AAA level. But their desire to have 16 teams for no sake but variety poses problems. And if they can't find any way to make a 14 team schedule work, then we need smarter people coaching AAA football.

Now, the suggestion.

It's time for 5 classes of football. This is not about championships, playoff appearances, any of that. This is about quality of play in the regular season and like schools being like schools.

Now, before Bisonguy, the Schwab, and any of the other Heimer-bashers take their shots, saying, "Well, what's your suggestion if you're so smart....blah blah blah," (reference evolution of basketball from posts past), here it is.

Top three classes are 10 teams. 9 game schedule, everyone plays everyone, and the top 8 make the playoffs.

Here it is.

AAAA:
West: Minot, Century, Bismarck, Mandan, Williston
East: West Fargo, Davies, Red River, South, Central

AAA:
West: Dickinson, Legacy, Watford City, Belcourt, St. Marys
East: North, Sheyenne, Jamestown, Devils Lake, Wahpeton

AA:
West: Valley City, Griggs/Barnes et al, Stanley, Beulah, Dickinson Trinity
East: Grafton, Shanley, Central Cass, Lisbon, Enderlin-Maple Valley

A: (20)
West: Harvey, Berthold, Des Lacs, Bottineau, Standing Rock, Belfield, Hazen, Garrison, Rugby, Kenmare
East: Kindred, Hillsboro-Central Valley, E-E-K, Park River, Carrington, Larimore, Lakota, Oak Grove, May-Port, Northern Cass

9: The rest.

Let the opt-ups sort out the rest: I would see, in this scenario, Shanley goes AAA, Minot Ryan goes AA, Oakes goes A as they have declared they will now. In this scenario:

Add Shanley to AAA east. Would typically displace St. Marys, but St. Marys would likely opt up also. Belcourt down, Jamestown to west AAA.

Add Belcourt and Minot Ryan to AA west. Valley City and Griggs-Barnes-Everyone-Who-Needs-A-Home-Till-Hope-Page-Finley-Sharon-Can't-Field-A-Team-In-Two-Years-And-They-Talk-Griggs-Into-Getting-Remarried go to east. Lisbon and Enderlin-Maple Valley down.

Lisbon, Enderlin-Maple Valley, and Oakes to A east. Carrington go west, Kenmare down. May-Port and Northern Cass down.

I believe this creates a ton of balance, gives teams more options for fielding teams or choosing co-ops, and finds some natural breaks in enrollment for classification.

Yes, I know, travel travel travel. Again, you do it every other year. Top three classes playing everyone, no mystery. A playing everyone in region. Travel just isn't a reason to hate this. And it's one more title game for our lovely Bison Teammakers to clear, so, we'll have to have two games Friday and three Saturday. Oh the struggle to find a weekend when they are gone. If they can't, send it to GF for an extra year, and to H#ll with the Fargodome.

Fire away. I'll schedule a counseling session for the mental damage your comments are about to do later this week.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby magic man » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:39 pm

I would be interested to see the enrollment (bous) of each of the teams, so that comparison shows up within your classes. Did you take that into consideration when assigning these classes? If so, what would be your guidelines for each class?
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby heimer » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:00 am

I'm not sure what you mean. Of course I considered enrollments. You may be thinking enrollment spread, top to bottom, in a class. Here is the current plan they are working with:

http://www.ndhsaa.com/files/2013_14_Spo ... _and_R.pdf

Enrollments are listed there.

This plan is top 10, next 10, next 10, next 20, and the rest, all on enrollment. Spreads as follows

AAAA: 1124-500
AAA: 489-154
AA: 152-103
A: 99-76
9-man: 75 and lower
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:04 pm

I think if they kept 4 classes and went 14, 16, 24, rest you'd have a nice split
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby Flip » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:16 pm

question to the mods: why not have one thread so there can be one discussion instead of four different threads?
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby magic man » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:05 pm

heimer wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. Of course I considered enrollments. You may be thinking enrollment spread, top to bottom, in a class. Here is the current plan they are working with:

http://www.ndhsaa.com/files/2013_14_Spo ... _and_R.pdf

Enrollments are listed there.

This plan is top 10, next 10, next 10, next 20, and the rest, all on enrollment. Spreads as follows

AAAA: 1124-500
AAA: 489-154
AA: 152-103
A: 99-76
9-man: 75 and lower

I guess that if you are looking at the enrollment numbers for boys as a barometer for classes, what was the rationale of wanting to move Valley City (who had a higher enrollment of boys) down while moving a team like Shanley up to the AAA?
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby heimer » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:09 pm

Okay, gonna go slow for Magic Man.

The top 10......enrollments.....are AAAA
The next 10.....enrollments are AAA
The next 10.....enrollments are AA
The next 20.....enrollments, are A
The rest.....is nine man.

Shanley and VC are both in the third group of enrollments.

The tactics of attacking through falsehood have been mastered by those that worship the NDHSAA status quo.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby magic man » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:31 pm

heimer wrote:Okay, gonna go slow for Magic Man.

The top 10......enrollments.....are AAAA
The next 10.....enrollments are AAA
The next 10.....enrollments are AA
The next 20.....enrollments, are A
The rest.....is nine man.

Shanley and VC are both in the third group of enrollments.

The tactics of attacking through falsehood have been mastered by those that worship the NDHSAA status quo.


I was asking an honest question. If you want to be an internet a**hole, that's your thing, but if you want to have an adult conversation, then feel free to reply. Did you not say this?:
"Let the opt-ups sort out the rest: I would see, in this scenario, Shanley goes AAA, Minot Ryan goes AA, Oakes goes A as they have declared they will now. In this scenario:

Add Shanley to AAA east. Would typically displace St. Marys, but St. Marys would likely opt up also. Belcourt down, Jamestown to west AAA.

Add Belcourt and Minot Ryan to AA west. Valley City and Griggs-Barnes-Everyone-Who-Needs-A-Home-Till-Hope-Page-Finley-Sharon-Can't-Field-A-Team-In-Two-Years-And-They-Talk-Griggs-Into-Getting-Remarried go to east. Lisbon and Enderlin-Maple Valley down.
.

Sounds like you are suggesting that even though VC and Shanley are in the same enrollment group, that you would like to see Shanley go up (or stay in AAA) and VC move down to AA... Did you not type this, or did I read too fast?
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby Indy5 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:32 pm

He's assuming Shanley will opt up and valley will not in that statement.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby heimer » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:56 pm

We can go around about the internet a**hole. Ask the appropriate question. Don't insinuate I tinkered with the numbers to put Valley City in a favorable position when I clearly didn't.

Personally, I wouldn't want Shanley to opt up. Shanley has been a great addition to the AA class, and would be great member in the AA class in this system.

But, I am aware of recent history. Shanley hung on as long as they could justify it as a AAA team, even when barely scraping into the playoffs was their best possible outcome. I'm open to the possibility that they would look at this and again welcome the idea of having schools in their metro they feel they may now compete with, and try it at the next level.

That being said, opt-ups have never been a package deal. You don't say, "Well, this team opted up, and since you're the same size, you should have to also." Shanley's opt-up business is Shanley's opt-up business. It's not Valley City's.

If Shanley opted up, they opt up. Valley City can choose to or not choose to. As I've laid out the plan, they are both AA.

So far, Magic Man has suggested that poor Williston would have to go to the Red River Valley five times a year, and now has suggested that Valley City ride the coattails of Shanley for opt-up purposes. My tolerance is limited for accusations against the plan that are not based in fact. You want 14 in a class, or 12, or 16, or 185, fine. Make your case. But let's keep our eyes on the ball.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby magic man » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:28 pm

Indy5 wrote:He's assuming Shanley will opt up and valley will not in that statement.


Thanks Indy5
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby bentheredunthat » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:10 pm

If there are 10 teams in the top classes and everyone plays everyone, why do we need east and west? Seems like sometimes we're splitting hairs about who's east and who's west when it won't matter in a 10 team class, will it?
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby NDplayin » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:13 pm

Ah, my dear friend Heimer- I've been gone so long that I had to blow the dust off my keyboard to begin.

Ready for a shock? I like much of Heimer's proposed plan. I also agree with him on two fronts- I think ND prep football needs a make over, and I was disappointed in the new plan. The one big difference between us is that he thinks top-down, and I think bottom-up.

As I've bitterly opposed a 3-class basketball system in the past, he will be surprised to learn that I'm not opposed to adding a division to football. They are two very different games, and having 11 players on the field at once with 22 starting positions (opposed to 5) drastically changes the way enrollment impacts the ability to compete- but that's a discussion for another time.

I would like to a class where Jamestown and Devils Lake can play with similar sized schools. I sympathize with the tough spot they are in under the current 4 division system- i.e. either get pounded by schools you have no legitimate prayer of being consistently competitive with, or pound of schools who have no legitimate shot of consistently competing with you. The problem is that the landscape of North Dakota doesn't offer a lot of schools that would fit into a class that would fit well for those 2, and while it's not perfect (nothing ever will be) Heimer's 10-10 idea comes as close as any other idea I've seen.

My only problem with Heimer's plan (there had to be one) is at the bottom- which is precisely where I think the biggest problem in North Dakota football is at the bottom, and I think it's precisely where the biggest fix is needed

Problem: Too many schools are playing 9-man in North Dakota

Disclaimer: I love 9 man- I would support a 6 man class. I love the way 9 man allows an individual school to keep its football identity. Even more, I love the way 9 man increases the opportunities for young men to compete rather than decreasing those opportunities via a co-op that spans 100 miles and requires a travel commitment that equals hours a day. I want North Dakota to always have a strong 9 man class.

The reality: As it stands now, the strong 9-man class which I WISH we had is cluttered and dominated by schools that should be fielding 11 man teams.We have too many schools with 11 man enrollments hiding in the 9 man division. I don't know what they are hiding from, but they are definitely hiding. I'd assume each school has their own reasons- maybe their hiding from the big bad school whom they think would thump them if they were 11 man, maybe they are making excuses for terrible participation numbers, maybe they just enjoy being the big kid on the block (who can blame them). None-the-less, if you are big enough to play 11 man, you should play 11 man.

Solution: A hard-line enrollment cutoff- You can not play 9 man unless your male enrollment falls below a certain line for 2 years in a row. If you are over the line, even barely, you are big enough to field an 11 man team.

I would set the line at a male enrollment of 65. Big classes come and go and so do small classes, but with a male enrollment of 65 you'd average out to have 16 boys per class (rounding down). If even half of the boys in each class go out (and I consider 50% to be a pathetic participating rate for football), then you have 8 boys out for football per class. Granted not all 8 are likely to be varsity level athletes, but if you put your 5 best seniors - 5 best juniors - and 1 stud sophomore on the field you should have 11 guys capable of competing in the smallest 11 man division and you should still have some capable seniors, juniors, and even sophomores ready to play in a reserve role.

In a nut shell, I feel that with 65 boys and even a pathetic 50% participation rate you are capable of being in the lowest 11 man class. If for some reason you can't, you should probably look in your own backyard for the source of the problem rather than blame the system. There are currently 14 schools bigger than 65 males slated to play 9-man in the next plan, some as high as 77, 76, 75...



The Big PictureHere's what I would do- rather than look at it top-down- I'd work bottom up. Any school under 65 boys can play 9-man unless they wish to opt up. That would give us a class of 31 nine-man teams prior to opt-ups. Enrollments from 65 boys to 84 boys would make up Class A- there are 25 of those schools for the next rotation. Enrollments 85-134 would give Class AA 20 teams. Enrollments 135-399 makes 11 3A teams. Enrollments 400+ gives us 14 4A teams.

9-man- (64 and under)- 31 Teams
A- (65-84)- 25 Teams
AA- (85-134)- 20 Teams
AAA- (135-399)- 11 Teams
AAAA- (400 and up) 14 Teams
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby magic man » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:33 pm

The only thing I worry about in that scenario, is how light in numbers the class AAA and AAAA teams are.
Probably would have to steal some from the 1A, and move to 2A, and so on..

With a 9 game schedule, you'd darn near play everyone, and the 2nd time around (playoffs) would be anti-climatic.

Do I have a solution? No. Haha. But I like the looks thus far, with a few tweaks here and there.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby HammerTime » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:54 pm

Flip wrote:question to the mods: why not have one thread so there can be one discussion instead of four different threads?

I completely agree. But I think Heimer wanted different perspectives from each level, and that makes sense. But I still wish this was on the main football forum. It'd be easier to follow.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby Indy5 » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:36 pm

magic man wrote:The only thing I worry about in that scenario, is how light in numbers the class AAA and AAAA teams are.
Probably would have to steal some from the 1A, and move to 2A, and so on..

With a 9 game schedule, you'd darn near play everyone, and the 2nd time around (playoffs) would be anti-climatic.

Do I have a solution? No. Haha. But I like the looks thus far, with a few tweaks here and there.

To tell you the truth, I don't have a problem with playoff rematches. I had one in my career, and it added a bit of excitement to that. It created new wrinkles for coaching to deal with having already played that team.

I really like the enrollment cutoff for 9 man/ 11 man, but I think we should leave it at that. I like the enrollment groupings, and I think we could keep those in the 11 man sector.
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