North Dakota Preps

I have a question. There is a debate right now that boys and girls basketball should flip their start dates, because volleyball goes into the girls basketball season if someone makes it to state. Even if a volleyball team makes it past the first round of regionals, they get one day off before basketball starts. I don't like the idea of a switch in the start dates. Last year's Class B Volleyball State Champion (Kenmare) had a record of 46-3. Are you kidding me? 49 games! That is a little excessive. Basketball is strictly limited to 19 games a year. Maybe instead of switching start dates, they should cut down on the number of games played in Volleyball. Any thoughts?

I agree with you all the way. Something needs to be done to cut down the overlap between vball and girls bball seasons. Limit the number of games and tournaments a team can be in a shorten the season by a week or two.

ndhoopscoach wrote:I have a question. There is a debate right now that boys and girls basketball should flip their start dates, because volleyball goes into the girls basketball season if someone makes it to state. Even if a volleyball team makes it past the first round of regionals, they get one day off before basketball starts. I don't like the idea of a switch in the start dates. Last year's Class B Volleyball State Champion (Kenmare) had a record of 46-3. Are you kidding me? 49 games! That is a little excessive. Basketball is strictly limited to 19 games a year. Maybe instead of switching start dates, they should cut down on the number of games played in Volleyball. Any thoughts?

Kenmare was 46-3 in GAMES....volleyball plays MATCHES and it is the best of 5 games so it looks like Kenmare plays a lot of games, but it is something like 19 matches.

The volleyball season is very long and there is talk of shortening it by a week. Moving up tournaments a week so the girls get a week off. There was one point this season that some teams had 10 days without a game. There is no reason why they cant shorten the season by a week.

I think 46-3 would be their match record. In some of those tournaments they only play two games and that counts as a match win and then they could play 5-6 matches in a tourney. All vball matches go at least 3 games so 49/3 is only about 16 games at the most and I'm sure they played more than that in a season.

You're right, I forgot about all the small tournaments during the season. The difference between basketball and volleyball is that you may play 5-6 matches in one DAY at one of those tournaments and in basketball it is just one game a day.
There is a limit as to how many matches are played. Something like 18 matches plus 3 tournaments.

strictly from a media standpoint, i would like to have gbb in the fall again...trying to keep track of boys' and gir's basketball at the same time is a bit much.

from a player/school/parent/fan standpoint, how does everyone else feel about it?

from a player/school/parent/fan standpoint, how does everyone else feel about it?

I like both girls and boys BB at the same time. Volleyball wasn't even a girl's sport when I was in high school. In fact, our BB coach wouldn't even allow girls in the gym when the boys were practicing. Yeah, old school...

I guess from a parents standpoint my biggest concern is the girl's health. When they don't get a break between sports it seems that some of these gals really start to loose muscle and incidentally weight towards the end of the season because the games get more rigorous and with tournaments more time demanding. Some time off between the seasons (shorter VB season) should be the way to go. I don't see this issue so much with men. I rememeber there was all of about 5 days between the state football championship and the start of bb practice.

I would rather see GBB in the fall again. Right now, GBB is always overshadowed by the boys because the boys are simply bigger, faster, stronger. And fans burn out on 4-5-6 basketball games a week. The burnout is not as severe when it is boys basketball and volleyball in the same season. And when GBB is in the fall, they have the indoor sport spotlight all to themselves. Crowds and interest in GBB is down since the girls went to the winter.

Another consideration is with a scarcity of basketball officials, moving the girls back to the fall would ease the squeeze to find officials.

Volleyball plays a lot of Saturday "tournament" type events and although this would conflict with wrestling a lot, it would ease the conflict between boys basketball and a winter girls sport. Even if volleyball plays in a tournament on Saturday, often the tournament is over by late afternoon and those that want to double up and catch a boys basketball game Saturday night can do so.

If boys and girls basketball both continue in the winter, I believe schools must continue to look at scheduling more doubleheaders where the boys and girls play on the same nights. It draws a bigger crowd and gives the fans at least a chance at a night off once in a while.

More thoughts?

Hinsa wrote:I would rather see GBB in the fall again. Right now, GBB is always overshadowed by the boys because the boys are simply bigger, faster, stronger. And fans burn out on 4-5-6 basketball games a week. The burnout is not as severe when it is boys basketball and volleyball in the same season. And when GBB is in the fall, they have the indoor sport spotlight all to themselves. Crowds and interest in GBB is down since the girls went to the winter.

Another consideration is with a scarcity of basketball officials, moving the girls back to the fall would ease the squeeze to find officials.

Volleyball plays a lot of Saturday "tournament" type events and although this would conflict with wrestling a lot, it would ease the conflict between boys basketball and a winter girls sport. Even if volleyball plays in a tournament on Saturday, often the tournament is over by late afternoon and those that want to double up and catch a boys basketball game Saturday night can do so.

If boys and girls basketball both continue in the winter, I believe schools must continue to look at scheduling more doubleheaders where the boys and girls play on the same nights. It draws a bigger crowd and gives the fans at least a chance at a night off once in a while.

More thoughts?

I agree there, I liked the old way better. I may be wrong but didn't they change it because of the states around us so that the border towns could play games with teams from other states?

bballfan_05 wrote:

Hinsa wrote:I would rather see GBB in the fall again. Right now, GBB is always overshadowed by the boys because the boys are simply bigger, faster, stronger. And fans burn out on 4-5-6 basketball games a week. The burnout is not as severe when it is boys basketball and volleyball in the same season. And when GBB is in the fall, they have the indoor sport spotlight all to themselves. Crowds and interest in GBB is down since the girls went to the winter.

Another consideration is with a scarcity of basketball officials, moving the girls back to the fall would ease the squeeze to find officials.

Volleyball plays a lot of Saturday "tournament" type events and although this would conflict with wrestling a lot, it would ease the conflict between boys basketball and a winter girls sport. Even if volleyball plays in a tournament on Saturday, often the tournament is over by late afternoon and those that want to double up and catch a boys basketball game Saturday night can do so.

If boys and girls basketball both continue in the winter, I believe schools must continue to look at scheduling more doubleheaders where the boys and girls play on the same nights. It draws a bigger crowd and gives the fans at least a chance at a night off once in a while.

More thoughts?

I agree there, I liked the old way better. I may be wrong but didn't they change it because of the states around us so that the border towns could play games with teams from other states?

No - it changed because of the potential lawsuit that might have happened by maybe a person sometime maybe in the future that might have the chance to get recruited by a college to play volleyball maybe. Since the colleges play them in the fall - that's when they like to bring in recruits I guess - and some female in some state sued because she wasn't getting a fair look because she played her volleyball in the winter time when recruitment was basically already over. They don't want to have sports opposite the way colleges do.
Would a lawsuit ever happen in ND because of this - Probably not - herego my sarcasm. But we Have to do what everybody else does. Michigan - coincidentally - is going back to the girls BB in the fall - and they are the state I believe the original lawsuit took place in. They are already receiving threats of lawsuits - but they are still going back to the old way. Which, I think is the way it should be at the HS level. It just makes more sense.

BB11 wrote:

bballfan_05 wrote:

Hinsa wrote:I would rather see GBB in the fall again. Right now, GBB is always overshadowed by the boys because the boys are simply bigger, faster, stronger. And fans burn out on 4-5-6 basketball games a week. The burnout is not as severe when it is boys basketball and volleyball in the same season. And when GBB is in the fall, they have the indoor sport spotlight all to themselves. Crowds and interest in GBB is down since the girls went to the winter.

Another consideration is with a scarcity of basketball officials, moving the girls back to the fall would ease the squeeze to find officials.

Volleyball plays a lot of Saturday "tournament" type events and although this would conflict with wrestling a lot, it would ease the conflict between boys basketball and a winter girls sport. Even if volleyball plays in a tournament on Saturday, often the tournament is over by late afternoon and those that want to double up and catch a boys basketball game Saturday night can do so.

If boys and girls basketball both continue in the winter, I believe schools must continue to look at scheduling more doubleheaders where the boys and girls play on the same nights. It draws a bigger crowd and gives the fans at least a chance at a night off once in a while.

More thoughts?

I agree there, I liked the old way better. I may be wrong but didn't they change it because of the states around us so that the border towns could play games with teams from other states?

No - it changed because of the potential lawsuit that might have happened by maybe a person sometime maybe in the future that might have the chance to get recruited by a college to play volleyball maybe. Since the colleges play them in the fall - that's when they like to bring in recruits I guess - and some female in some state sued because she wasn't getting a fair look because she played her volleyball in the winter time when recruitment was basically already over. They don't want to have sports opposite the way colleges do.
Would a lawsuit ever happen in ND because of this - Probably not - herego my sarcasm. But we Have to do what everybody else does. Michigan - coincidentally - is going back to the girls BB in the fall - and they are the state I believe the original lawsuit took place in. They are already receiving threats of lawsuits - but they are still going back to the old way. Which, I think is the way it should be at the HS level. It just makes more sense.

Ok thanks, I couldn't remember for sure why it was changed. Idk, having both in the winter is over-kill come tournament time.

It does make it easier for towns near the borders to schedule a couple games with teams in another state and cut down travel distances if the seasons are all the same. I liked girls bball better in the fall also, but I highly doubt it will be changing anytime soon. Schools and people are just going to have to adjust and be creative in scheduling to make the seasons run more smoothly.

I have heard that there is a movement in the Division I College Women's Ranks that they are starting to push for their season to be switched to the fall. Their reasoning for this is that they feel they are competing with Men's College Basketball for fan support and TV time and they can gain more popularity if they switch to the fall. IF Division I Women's Basketball moves to the fall, then all colleges will switch to the fall, which will then lead to all the state high school's having to switch back to the fall to avoid what problems they had before the switch to winter.

Pray that this happens in a reasonable amount of time......but I bet it takes a governmental period of time!?!

BB11 wrote:

bballfan_05 wrote:

Hinsa wrote:I would rather see GBB in the fall again. Right now, GBB is always overshadowed by the boys because the boys are simply bigger, faster, stronger. And fans burn out on 4-5-6 basketball games a week. The burnout is not as severe when it is boys basketball and volleyball in the same season. And when GBB is in the fall, they have the indoor sport spotlight all to themselves. Crowds and interest in GBB is down since the girls went to the winter.

Another consideration is with a scarcity of basketball officials, moving the girls back to the fall would ease the squeeze to find officials.

Volleyball plays a lot of Saturday "tournament" type events and although this would conflict with wrestling a lot, it would ease the conflict between boys basketball and a winter girls sport. Even if volleyball plays in a tournament on Saturday, often the tournament is over by late afternoon and those that want to double up and catch a boys basketball game Saturday night can do so.

If boys and girls basketball both continue in the winter, I believe schools must continue to look at scheduling more doubleheaders where the boys and girls play on the same nights. It draws a bigger crowd and gives the fans at least a chance at a night off once in a while.

More thoughts?

I agree there, I liked the old way better. I may be wrong but didn't they change it because of the states around us so that the border towns could play games with teams from other states?

No - it changed because of the potential lawsuit that might have happened by maybe a person sometime maybe in the future that might have the chance to get recruited by a college to play volleyball maybe. Since the colleges play them in the fall - that's when they like to bring in recruits I guess - and some female in some state sued because she wasn't getting a fair look because she played her volleyball in the winter time when recruitment was basically already over. They don't want to have sports opposite the way colleges do.
Would a lawsuit ever happen in ND because of this - Probably not - herego my sarcasm. But we Have to do what everybody else does. Michigan - coincidentally - is going back to the girls BB in the fall - and they are the state I believe the original lawsuit took place in. They are already receiving threats of lawsuits - but they are still going back to the old way. Which, I think is the way it should be at the HS level. It just makes more sense.

Michigan has never changed. They are a non-profit organization which allows them to do what they want and not be afraid of a lawsuit.

cubsfan wrote:

BB11 wrote:

bballfan_05 wrote:

Hinsa wrote:I would rather see GBB in the fall again. Right now, GBB is always overshadowed by the boys because the boys are simply bigger, faster, stronger. And fans burn out on 4-5-6 basketball games a week. The burnout is not as severe when it is boys basketball and volleyball in the same season. And when GBB is in the fall, they have the indoor sport spotlight all to themselves. Crowds and interest in GBB is down since the girls went to the winter.

Another consideration is with a scarcity of basketball officials, moving the girls back to the fall would ease the squeeze to find officials.

Volleyball plays a lot of Saturday "tournament" type events and although this would conflict with wrestling a lot, it would ease the conflict between boys basketball and a winter girls sport. Even if volleyball plays in a tournament on Saturday, often the tournament is over by late afternoon and those that want to double up and catch a boys basketball game Saturday night can do so.

If boys and girls basketball both continue in the winter, I believe schools must continue to look at scheduling more doubleheaders where the boys and girls play on the same nights. It draws a bigger crowd and gives the fans at least a chance at a night off once in a while.

More thoughts?

I agree there, I liked the old way better. I may be wrong but didn't they change it because of the states around us so that the border towns could play games with teams from other states?

No - it changed because of the potential lawsuit that might have happened by maybe a person sometime maybe in the future that might have the chance to get recruited by a college to play volleyball maybe. Since the colleges play them in the fall - that's when they like to bring in recruits I guess - and some female in some state sued because she wasn't getting a fair look because she played her volleyball in the winter time when recruitment was basically already over. They don't want to have sports opposite the way colleges do.
Would a lawsuit ever happen in ND because of this - Probably not - herego my sarcasm. But we Have to do what everybody else does. Michigan - coincidentally - is going back to the girls BB in the fall - and they are the state I believe the original lawsuit took place in. They are already receiving threats of lawsuits - but they are still going back to the old way. Which, I think is the way it should be at the HS level. It just makes more sense.

Michigan has never changed. They are a non-profit organization which allows them to do what they want and not be afraid of a lawsuit.

OK - I knew Michigan was at the center of this controversy. I just heard a different story. Amazing how stories can change when they get told and retold. Thanks for the info - that makes a lot more sense.

again...there'd be a simple solution to this problem. Switch the start dates of girl's and boy's basketball---leave volleyball alone.
Volleyball plays on the same number of dates, sometimes less...than basketball. You can play either 12 matches and 4 tournaments, 14 and 3, or 16 and 2. The complaint about too many games comes from people that just don't understand the sport. There's also alot of grumbling among basketball coaches about wanting to play more games, since volleyball had records like 40-4. Here's the solution: 1) be willing to play more saturday games...and play twice on a saturday. I think the NDHSAA would go for this. Many states are allowed more than 19 regular season basketball games, but many of them will play twice on a saturday.

Many states do allow their basketball teams to play more than 19 games, but North Dakota does not. If you play more than your 19 games, they are considered forfeits because they violate the rule of 19. There are many teams that play Saturday games. In fact Turtle Mountain High School's basketball schedule consists nearly of all games played on Friday and Saturday nights. Technically you can play two games in a day, but there must be a certain amount of time in between games for rest. The reason nobody plays two games in a day is because basketball is very physically demanding, compared to volleyball. It is tough enough to play 3 consecutive nights in basketball because the players can't physically recover. They should allow basketball teams to schedule more games, but they also need to cut back the number of volleyball games in a season.

NDhoopscoach...my point was, that many basketball coaches argue that they should be able to play 20 or 21 games in a season. Inevitably this comes up every 2 or 3 years. If it was brought to the NDHSAA in a way saying that they would play twice on a saturday instead of a weeknight---I'm sure the idea would be revisited. The major reasoning to not extend the season for basketball is because the NDHSAA does not want kids playing on school nights (any more than they already do).

With the rationale that there are too many volleyball matches...should we extend the number of football that can be played then? Boys basketball plays 19 regular season games---is that too many since football only plays 9?

Volleyball can play on the same number of school nights as girl's basketball. Don't take away from this sport that is finally growing and improving. For years ND's talent pool has been far behind the other states because of the lack of playing opportunities---finally we're making some headway. Last year alone, we had two girls go on to play Division I volleyball and about a dozen others that went on to play DII--don't limit their opportunities with the argument that (it's just not fair to girls basketball---that argument is BS, switch the girl's and boy's basketball seasons and give the kids that extra week off).

First of all, you can't really extend the number of football games played. It is a very physical sport that requires time to recover. That is why you only play one football game a week. That is also why it is necessary to give time off to those football teams to recover between football and basketball. Volleyball is the least physically demanding sport. They can play the same number of games if they want, just shorten the time frame to get the games in. Besides the Boys' State Class B tournament is the biggest draw and money maker for the NDHSAA. They like to wrap up the sports season with that as the big show. They do not really want to change that setting. Shorten the volleyball season is the only way to go!

ndhoopscoach wrote:First of all, you can't really extend the number of football games played. It is a very physical sport that requires time to recover. That is why you only play one football game a week. That is also why it is necessary to give time off to those football teams to recover between football and basketball. Volleyball is the least physically demanding sport. They can play the same number of games if they want, just shorten the time frame to get the games in. Besides the Boys' State Class B tournament is the biggest draw and money maker for the NDHSAA. They like to wrap up the sports season with that as the big show. They do not really want to change that setting. Shorten the volleyball season is the only way to go!

for a lot of teams at the end of the year that don't get a bye in the first round of the playoffs, they are playing something like 3 games in 15 days, which i'm amazed they can do. to me, it seems like quite a bit of body punishment to go through.

Didn't the VB season shorten by a week just a couple of years ago? Not sure on that, tho. I think VB could shorten another week. Most teams will play the max amount of tournaments so that leaves fewer regular night matches to schedule. That is why most teams have big stretches without games. The seasons will probably never switch back unless a majority of other states do. Playing 2 BB games on a Saturday isn't as easy as it sounds. Too physically demanding of a game to play that much at varsity level. Also, boys BB will NEVER start the season first just to accomodate the girl athletes. I agree, VB could be shortened.