three class system

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Postby point/center » Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:53 am

Valley City is obviously in favor of the three class system. But does it guarantee they will win? They've lost to many area B teams already. As it say's in the story, many of the middle schools are NOT in favor of it? Why? It takes away some traditional rivalrys. Like Maple Valley not playing Casselton. Kindred not playing Enderlin for example. Valley City's problem is not enrollment, their problem is more about stability and ability within the coaching ranks.


VCHS likes idea of a three-class system
[align=justify] Image[/align][align=justify]Mike Griffenberg/VCTR
Hi-Liner basketball player Aaron Hochstetler, senior, won't have the opportunity to compete with the likes of Lisbon, Carrington and Fargo Oak Grove for a state championship, but his freshmen teammates might. The North Dakota Interscholastic Athletic Administration Association has proposed a switch from the current two-class system for basketball and volleyball to a three-class one, which would move Valley City out of Class A and into the middle division. The change would go into effect for the 2009-10 school year.


By Mike Griffenberg,               TR Sports Writer [/align][align=justify]Right now Valley City High School is a small fish in a big pond. In two years, it could be a big fish in a small pond. A proposal to change the class system in basketball and volleyball from the current A and B system to a three-class one in 2009-10 has been gaining steam with athletic directors across the state.[/align][align=justify]

Under the proposed system, Valley City would have the highest enrollment in the middle class. Currently, VCHS has the lowest enrollment of any Class A school.
This is a change that VCHS activities director Al Cruchet and VCHS school officials are in a favor of and have been for a couple of years now.
"For me personally, and our school administration, we've felt this is the way to move for the last two to three years," Cruchet said. "In about four years we're going to be right on the line to be a Class B school anyway."
Today, the cutoff between Class A and Class B schools is 325 students. According to Cruchet, VCHS will have around 310 students 2010.
[/align][align=justify] [/align]
Meanwhile, five schools in the Eastern Dakota Conference have enrollments currently more than 1,000: Fargo South (1,625), West Fargo (1,606), Fargo North (1,200), Grand Forks Red River (1,199) and Grand Forks Central (1,072).
The growing gap between the Fargo schools and Valley City is just one reason why this proposal has been brought up.
Cruchet said there is a sentiment within Class B that the same schools go to the state tournaments every year.
Also, Cruchet said there could be new schools in Fargo and Bismarck within the next five to six years, which means there would be more large schools.
The more large schools means the less likely that Valley City would be able to compete and that the large schools would want to even play Valley City.
"The bigger group is going to be bigger and more elite and have more competition right within their own area," Cruchet said. "If there are two new schools in Fargo, why would they want to come out and play Valley City and Devils Lake, especially if we still only have 19 games."
It is still undetermined if the divisions will be called AAA, AA and A or AA, A and B in the new plan, but whatever the top division is called, it will be for schools with enrollments of 450 or higher. The middle division will have enrollments of 150-449, and the smallest division will be 149 and under.
There will be 15 schools in the top division in two regions, but according to Cruchet, Fargo Shanley and Bismarck St. Mary's have indicated that they will move up into that group.
The middle division will have anywhere between 34-36 schools, depending on co-ops for basketball and volleyball, broken into four regions.
The lower division will have approximately 150 schools broken into eight regions.
Cruchet said he doesn't know exactly who would be in Valley City's region but guessed it would include Lisbon, Carrington, Kindred and Fargo Oak Grove.
"We would have, what I feel, a pretty good region," he said.
VCHS would still compete against the other Class A schools in other sports, such as golf, tennis and track.
Cruchet said the powers that be at VCHS are in favor of the switch to a three-class system, not because it would make them the top dog in their region, but because it will give their athletes a chance to be competitive. That is something that hasn't been possible the last couple of years, with the exception of the girls basketball team that went to the state tournament in 2005.
"We don't have to win every game, but we'd sure like to be competitive," Cruchet said. "We have never been to a state volleyball tournament in the history of it. I guess [the three-class system] would give us the opportunity to have a little more success and have a little bit more team and school spirit."
Cruchet said the North Dakota Interscholastic Athletic Administration Association will approve the plan at its convention in April. From there the NDIAAA will continue to fine tune it until the North Dakota High School Activities Association's general assembly votes on it in October.
This is not the first time a three-class system has been proposed. It has been defeated four times, most recently in 2004 by a vote of 120-49.
Cruchet said the chance of it passing this time is much more likely, but is not a slam dunk by any means.
"My guess is that it will be a close vote," he said. "The large schools are in favor of it. I think most of the smaller schools are in favor of it. It's in the middle bracket that, probably, a good share would vote against it."
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Postby bballfan_05 » Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:27 pm

Three-class system would ruin highschool athletes in the sense that it would destroy the one of the greatest traditions in North Dakota, the state B tournament. There is no feelin like being at the state B tourney.
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Postby GRIDIRON GURU » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:27 am

A three class system would be a joke! It would totally ruin class b basketball. which is the biggest show in N.D.

I am sick of hearing Valley City cry about how they can not compete. So there should be a special class for them. I call BS. there are bigger problems in VC in the athletic dept. starting from the top on down.

 

Valley city is the second biggest school in AA football and whent 0-9 this past season.

athletics are broken in Valley City. a new class will not help them.

 

 

 
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Postby point/center » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:27 am

GRIDIRON GURU wrote:A three class system would be a joke! It would totally ruin class b basketball. which is the biggest show in N.D.

I am sick of hearing Valley City cry about how they can not compete. So there should be a special class for them. I call BS. there are bigger problems in VC in the athletic dept. starting from the top on down.

 

Valley city is the second biggest school in AA football and whent 0-9 this past season.

athletics are broken in Valley City. a new class will not help them.

 

 

 

I couldnt agree with you more.
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Postby rkmt » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:18 am

For example, In Class A basketball Wahpeton is small.  Their boys have been competitive in the EDC more years than not- and for that matter also in AAA football where they are very small.  The girls have not.  Size is a factor, but if size was the ONLY factor, both boys and girls would be dealing with the same issues.   The programs are the issue.  VC programs are just not very good right now and maybe they aren't striving to get competitive because they are just waiting to drop down.  Like that will be a fix.  I remember when VC moved to AA in football, and it hadn't been that many years since they'd been to a title game.  We thought they would dominate in AA, at least for awhile.  It never happened.  They will not dominate in a middle class in basketball either. 
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Postby Unity77 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:22 am

During the late 80s Grafton officials knew because of declining enrollments the school would have to make the move from class A to B.  They made the mistake of assuming winning would be a lot easier.  Unfortunately for Grafton, their basketball programs had tanked by the mid-90s and they haven't even been a threat in class B.  The football program has experienced its up and downs and that won't be changing anytime soon, especially when some of the school's best athletes continue to skip football because they don't want to get hurt for hockey.
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Postby andy_7 » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:04 am

But with a three class system it can give a small school a shot to contend with there regions.  A small school can't compete with a private school like dickinson trinity or a big school like bottineau with a ballpark enrollment of 300 or so.
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Postby rep » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:17 am

because sports/life is what...fair??

get better or get used to losing...mediocrity should never be rewarded.
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Postby point/center » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:03 am

i am honestly so sick of schools like VC saying #s are the reason they can't compete. ever see Hoosiers? if not i'd like the NDHSAA to send out a copy to every VC apologetic in the state. want to compete? don't blame the NDHSAA or the 'other' schools. get to work..build up the freakn program. maybe Napoleon should beg for another class of wrestling so they can compete.....
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Postby Carl08 » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:11 am

If numbers aren't an issue...why do we even have a class B?
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Postby point/center » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:14 am

exactly...i'd vote for a one class system in a heartbeat. i dont profess to know the ins and outs. but why can Napoleon be THE BEST wrestling team in the state? in all sincerity fill me in on what it's more difficult to compete in BB than in wresling? more weight classes to fill on the mat than positions on the hard-court.
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Postby Carl08 » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:21 am

point/center wrote:exactly...i'd vote for a one class system in a heartbeat. i dont profess to know the ins and outs. but why can Napoleon be THE BEST wrestling team in the state? in all sincerity fill me in on what it's more difficult to compete in BB than in wresling? more weight classes to fill on the mat than positions on the hard-court.

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Postby soccer09 » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:39 am

Could specialization be a part of it? In the larger schools a lot of kids can only try to excel at one sport to make the team making them very good at one thing while in smaller you have to fill in everywhere to make full teams.
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Postby Diamond D » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:50 am

The problem lies with the fact that Class B is ruined right now anyways.  We have 2-3 private schools in there every year.  To me, that isn't the class B anymore.

Although DT might have lower enrollment numbers than say Harvey or Carrington, it is Dickinson who comes to support DT.  When Shiloh comes, it is Bismarck that comes to support the team.  When Bishop Ryan makes it, it is Minot that comes to support.

To me, the Class B is about small towns, not about about small enrollments. Class B was about being away from the Bismarck's and Minot's.  Now it isn't.

I have been opposed to a 3 class system, but now am seeing the advantages of doing so.

The private schools (class "A" misfits) along with a few other schools like VC, DL, Whap, and some others just might be the answer.

 
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Postby Baller » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:56 am

Diamond D wrote:The problem lies with the fact that Class B is ruined right now anyways.  We have 2-3 private schools in there every year.  To me, that isn't the class B anymore.

Although DT might have lower enrollment numbers than say Harvey or Carrington, it is Dickinson who comes to support DT.  When Shiloh comes, it is Bismarck that comes to support the team.  When Bishop Ryan makes it, it is Minot that comes to support.

To me, the Class B is about small towns, not about about small enrollments. Class B was about being away from the Bismarck's and Minot's.  Now it isn't.

I have been opposed to a 3 class system, but now am seeing the advantages of doing so.

The private schools (class "A" misfits) along with a few other schools like VC, DL, Whap, and some others just might be the answer.

 

How can you say that Class B is ruined by the Private Schools when the ones that you named have ALWAYS been Class B except Minot Ryan and they haven't been A since the old North Star Conference.
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Postby grizz » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:29 am

I don't think the 3 class would work because there aren't enough schools in ND. If there were 3 classes, the chances of going to state every year would increase dramatically.
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Postby Diamond D » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:36 am

Minot Ryan switched in 1991-1992. DT hasn't been class B the whole time.  What year did they switch over?

Oak Grove?  were they not Class A at one time?

St. Mary's is Class A are they not?

 

I have no problem with a private school setting.  If that is the school you want your kids to go to, then so be it.  IMHO the Class B boys/girls basketball tournament is about the Pingree's, the Sherwood's, the Tioga's, the Washburns, the Bowman's, the Parshalls, etc....  AND not about Minot, Bismarck, Dickinson, Fargo, Devils Lake, etc...

 
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Postby Big Hitter » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:06 am

My opinion on the whole matter is that the private school should be class A and AAA for football there i think everyone is sick of seeing DT in the state tourney every year. along with the other private schools.
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Postby Baller » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:49 am

Diamond D wrote:Minot Ryan switched in 1991-1992. DT hasn't been class B the whole time.  What year did they switch over?

Oak Grove?  were they not Class A at one time?

St. Mary's is Class A are they not?

 

I have no problem with a private school setting.  If that is the school you want your kids to go to, then so be it.  IMHO the Class B boys/girls basketball tournament is about the Pingree's, the Sherwood's, the Tioga's, the Washburns, the Bowman's, the Parshalls, etc....  AND not about Minot, Bismarck, Dickinson, Fargo, Devils Lake, etc...

 
We are not talking about Private schools that are already A.  Yeah you are right Trinity was A at the same time that Minot Ryan is.  But if we are talking about the Pingree's and Tioga's, we can't because they all co-op.  If you are going to make private schools go A just because they are private and not because of numbers, then lets make ALL the coops do it too.  The PBK's the North Borbers, the Steele-Dawson's, yeah when a team makes it to state, there are four towns supporting them.....Being in Fargo, when Oak Grove makes it to state, I do not support them (I support my team)  Same goes for all the other private schools.
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Postby baller01 » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:12 pm

Big Hitter wrote:My opinion on the whole matter is that the private school should be class A and AAA for football there i think everyone is sick of seeing DT in the state tourney every year. along with the other private schools.

I really don't see why people come on here and say they are so sick of DT making it to state when most of the year they weren't even ranked and where the #4 team in the district most of the year. This obviously was the year that the Trinity dynasty should have ended. Neither Beulah, Hazen, nor Killdeer could keep DT out of the state tournament so I don't see how this year was DT fault for making state. I agree that having private schools doesn't make the class B tournament the same but I don't think we have the right to say that Trinity doesn't deserve to be there. It bothers me that people think that just because they are from a class A town that they are automatically going to be good. If private schools were automatically good, how come Oak Grove doesn't come out of region 1 all the time. I never read anything on here about region 1 fans complaining about having to play Oak Grove. Shiloh obviously shouldn't have been in this year tournament as I think that they were the 4th best team in that region. I don't hear many people complain that Shiloh made it to state. Grinnstiener took a bunch of average, hard working players to the state title game and Dwyer took one good senior and a bunch of good sophomores to state. I think the whole 3 class system stuff needs to be dropped and teams, players, and fans need to quit using the "private school" excuse for losing.
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Postby Diamond D » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:25 pm

But if we are talking about the Pingree's and Tioga's, we can't because they all co-op.  If you are going to make private schools go A just because they are private and not because of numbers, then lets make ALL the coops do it too. 

 

Geeze I knew someone was going to throw that one out.  Co-ops are not the same as parochial schools are. When Steele-Dawson makes it to state, it is just different than when Bishop Ryan or Shiloh or Shanley makes it there.  It is still "small town" doing the supporting and that IMHO is what the State Class B is all about.

Class A has always been identified as the large towns tournament.  Class B has always been about the small town tournament.  As I state before, when Bishop Ryan wins, Minot comes to support them.  I don't feel it is their tournament.  It is the small town's tournament.  That is just my humble opinion. 

I am not saying DT or Bishop Ryan should be Class A either.  Hence why I called them the misfits.  They (meaning the parochial schools) really don't fit in anywhere right now. 

I will also agree to disagree with you SCC on the comment you made.  I don't think the consolidations are changing/ruining the state class B.  It is still small town ND showing up to show support for their teams.

 

 
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Postby digger » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:34 pm

Diamond D wrote:
But if we are talking about the Pingree's and Tioga's, we can't because they all co-op.  If you are going to make private schools go A just because they are private and not because of numbers, then lets make ALL the coops do it too. 

 

Geeze I knew someone was going to throw that one out.  Co-ops are not the same as parochial schools are. When Steele-Dawson makes it to state, it is just different than when Bishop Ryan or Shiloh or Shanley makes it there.  It is still "small town" doing the supporting and that IMHO is what the State Class B is all about.

Class A has always been identified as the large towns tournament.  Class B has always been about the small town tournament.  As I state before, when Bishop Ryan wins, Minot comes to support them.  I don't feel it is their tournament.  It is the small town's tournament.  That is just my humble opinion. 

I am not saying DT or Bishop Ryan should be Class A either.  Hence why I called them the misfits.  They (meaning the parochial schools) really don't fit in anywhere right now. 

I will also agree to disagree with you SCC on the comment you made.  I don't think the consolidations are changing/ruining the state class B.  It is still small town ND showing up to show support for their teams.

 

 

Take Trinity's run over the last 10 years out of the equation, do you still want 3 class basketball?  It seems as though dislike/jealousy for Trinity has seeped into the way some people look at the other privates, and the easiest fix is the 3 class system.  Take into account that along with the privates you'll be taking Kindred, Lisbon, Central Cass, Watford City, Hazen, Rugby, etc. out of Class B.  Is this really what you want?  These aren't your traditional "small towns" that you want in Class B?  The demographics of North Dakota suggest that many of the smallest schools will continue to consolidate, it makes sense from a financial sense and from the standpoint of delivery of services.  Lisbon/Watford/Kindred vs. a smaller school or a consolidated district isn't unfair competition. 

You take away all the David vs. Goliath aspect of the Class B and you've significantly altered the atmosphere of the B.  Don't forget why "Hoosiers" was such a great story.
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Postby baller01 » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:42 pm

digger wrote:
Diamond D wrote:
But if we are talking about the Pingree's and Tioga's, we can't because they all co-op.  If you are going to make private schools go A just because they are private and not because of numbers, then lets make ALL the coops do it too. 

 

Geeze I knew someone was going to throw that one out.  Co-ops are not the same as parochial schools are. When Steele-Dawson makes it to state, it is just different than when Bishop Ryan or Shiloh or Shanley makes it there.  It is still "small town" doing the supporting and that IMHO is what the State Class B is all about.

Class A has always been identified as the large towns tournament.  Class B has always been about the small town tournament.  As I state before, when Bishop Ryan wins, Minot comes to support them.  I don't feel it is their tournament.  It is the small town's tournament.  That is just my humble opinion. 

I am not saying DT or Bishop Ryan should be Class A either.  Hence why I called them the misfits.  They (meaning the parochial schools) really don't fit in anywhere right now. 

I will also agree to disagree with you SCC on the comment you made.  I don't think the consolidations are changing/ruining the state class B.  It is still small town ND showing up to show support for their teams.

 

 

Take Trinity's run over the last 10 years out of the equation, do you still want 3 class basketball?  It seems as though dislike/jealousy for Trinity has seeped into the way some people look at the other privates, and the easiest fix is the 3 class system.  Take into account that along with the privates you'll be taking Kindred, Lisbon, Central Cass, Watford City, Hazen, Rugby, etc. out of Class B.  Is this really what you want?  These aren't your traditional "small towns" that you want in Class B?  The demographics of North Dakota suggest that many of the smallest schools will continue to consolidate, it makes sense from a financial sense and from the standpoint of delivery of services.  Lisbon/Watford/Kindred vs. a smaller school or a consolidated district isn't unfair competition. 

You take away all the David vs. Goliath aspect of the Class B and you've significantly altered the atmosphere of the B.  Don't forget why "Hoosiers" was such a great story.


Wow... probably the greatest post in the history of North Dakota Preps.

Another point to add. Like Digger said, take Trinity's 10 year run out and do you still want 3 class, see if Valley City would want the 3 classes if they would have success every couple of years at the class A level. I don't know why VC thinks if they play against smaller towns they are going to have more success...?

Beulah is a perfect example of that. They were class A, dropped down to class B, and didn't even make it past the first round of regionals.

Nice post Digger.
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Postby bestinthewest » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:51 pm

This 3-class suggestion is BS. some of the biggest load of BS i have ever heard. You hear VC complaining because they cant win in class A. you dont hear all the tiny little schools that never make the state tournament complaining and asking for another class. if you ask me, making the state B tourney is like making the elite 8 of the NCAA tournament, its a huge frickin deal. when the tiny little towns make it that far, everyone supports them and goes out and watches them. and you know they got there because of their hard work and quality coaching. i'm sure VC could make it with the right combo of hard work and maybe if they would attempt to strengthen their coaching staff.
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Postby Baller » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:55 pm

bestinthewest wrote:This 3-class suggestion is BS. some of the biggest load of BS i have ever heard. You hear VC complaining because they cant win in class A. you dont hear all the tiny little schools that never make the state tournament complaining and asking for another class. if you ask me, making the state B tourney is like making the elite 8 of the NCAA tournament, its a huge frickin deal. when the tiny little towns make it that far, everyone supports them and goes out and watches them. and you know they got there because of their hard work and quality coaching. i'm sure VC could make it with the right combo of hard work and maybe if they would attempt to strengthen their coaching staff.
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