Fighting Sioux???

No smack talk is allowed here.

Postby hoop_fan1 » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:32 am

Yes, catholics get mocked all the time.  Especially in Hollywood.  How many movies/tv shows have you watched and it's a scene in the confessional, or Jay Leno or other comedians talking about priests molesting the altar boys?  It all makes the catholic faith look bad, especially those who aren't catholic & don't understand the faith.  as a catholic, it does kind of get underneath your skin.

I think i understand some of the reasoning from the native american community for wanting the name changed.  But what happens when the name is changed- is there really still a need for all the support the university (tax payers) gives to those of native american ancestry?  UND would no longer be representing the native american community on a national scale.

Ming01[/user] wrote: [/b]
[quote][quote][b][user=232]Indians Alumni wrote:
I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long!  I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname.  Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people.  It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass. 

You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance.  What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people.  There would be holy-heck to pay.  So what makes it right?  Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either.  When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion.  People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it!  How is that not poking fun at the culture?  Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion. 

Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!


"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace?  What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention? 
[/quote]
Where does religion fit into this?[/quote]
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Postby nativegolfer » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:12 am

I think i understand some of the reasoning from the native american community for wanting the name changed.  But what happens when the name is changed- is there really still a need for all the support the university (tax payers) gives to those of native american ancestry?  UND would no longer be representing the native american community on a national scale.


Could you be more specific about the support NA's get?  There is the cultural diversity tuition waiver but the number of NA's who recieve this is small compared to other ethnic groups.  There is a fund called the Sioux fund, I believe, but that is not supported by the taxpayers.  Please don't perpetuate the belief that NA's get things for free because they are indian.  It's very hard financially for a NA to go to a four year school.  I know alot of people from SLN who have tried but had to come home for financial reasons. 
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Postby The Schwab » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:39 am

nativegolfer wrote:I think i understand some of the reasoning from the native american community for wanting the name changed.  But what happens when the name is changed- is there really still a need for all the support the university (tax payers) gives to those of native american ancestry?  UND would no longer be representing the native american community on a national scale.


Could you be more specific about the support NA's get?  There is the cultural diversity tuition waiver but the number of NA's who recieve this is small compared to other ethnic groups.  There is a fund called the Sioux fund, I believe, but that is not supported by the taxpayers.  Please don't perpetuate the belief that NA's get things for free because they are indian.  It's very hard financially for a NA to go to a four year school.  I know alot of people from SLN who have tried but had to come home for financial reasons. 
I know alot of non native people who have had to come home for that same reason...

I would really like to hear IA and NG explain to me if they are for or against the nickname that UND uses, I really have no opinion one way or the other it doesnt really affect me one way or the other, but I would like to hear their reasons for or against because I think they could give some insight. Just a thought
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Postby nativegolfer » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:58 am

The Schwab wrote:
nativegolfer wrote:I think i understand some of the reasoning from the native american community for wanting the name changed.  But what happens when the name is changed- is there really still a need for all the support the university (tax payers) gives to those of native american ancestry?  UND would no longer be representing the native american community on a national scale.


Could you be more specific about the support NA's get?  There is the cultural diversity tuition waiver but the number of NA's who recieve this is small compared to other ethnic groups.  There is a fund called the Sioux fund, I believe, but that is not supported by the taxpayers.  Please don't perpetuate the belief that NA's get things for free because they are indian.  It's very hard financially for a NA to go to a four year school.  I know alot of people from SLN who have tried but had to come home for financial reasons. 
I know alot of non native people who have had to come home for that same reason...

I would really like to hear IA and NG explain to me if they are for or against the nickname that UND uses, I really have no opinion one way or the other it doesnt really affect me one way or the other, but I would like to hear their reasons for or against because I think they could give some insight. Just a thought

Up until about a year or so it didn't matter to me if the name was changed.  It didn't offend me personally but I know if individuals on Spirit Lake are offended by it.  But a cuople of things changed my mind.  First, I know of people from Spirit Lake who ahve been discriminated against in Gf because of the name issue.  If this is happens to NA's and they are being denied the right to an education then it is time to change the name and move on.  The other issue is that the State of ND has decided to pursue the name issue in court!  That seems over the edge to me in this whole issue.  I know of other community members who felt the same way I did but now have changed sides because of the actions of the state.  Read my prior posts about seeing this issue from the native perspective and the issues we have had to deal with for the past 100 years.  
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Postby The Schwab » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:11 am

well i understand what your saying, and i feel that no one should have to go through that, BUT from what i'm getting at you dont have a problem with just "The Name" you have a problem with the way this whole name issue has resulted in the racist comments, remarks etc... ok...that makes sense to me, thank you for responding
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Postby always a sports season » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:16 am

I can't help but think some of the resistance to the name change by UND officials is the beautiful facilities provided by Englestad and what I consider his bullying tactics about the name not being changed.  And alongside that is the greed to want the big beautiful buildings.  I'm not saying that's wrong to want wonderful facilities but maybe UND needed to figure out other ways of funding a new hockey arena rather than getting bullied about not building it unless there was assurance the nickname wouldn't be changed.  And it seemed there was a real statement made with the huge numbers of Sioux emblems throughout the building.
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Postby Indians Alumni » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:02 am

cdub1 wrote:
Ming01 wrote:
cdub1 wrote:
Ming01 wrote:
Indians Alumni wrote:I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long!  I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname.  Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people.  It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass. 

You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance.  What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people.  There would be holy-heck to pay.  So what makes it right?  Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either.  When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion.  People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it!  How is that not poking fun at the culture?  Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion. 

Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!


"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace?  What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention? 

Where does religion fit into this?

many native americans have their own religions

ok?  still waiting for an answer...

thats as close as i can get to an answer i think the argument he used was dumb


The Native American Dance is the religion.  They aren't dancing out there for the heck of it, let me put it into something you would kinda understand.  Ok, There is the rain dance, that is PRAYING for rain, there is other dances honoring different things, such as a round dance honoring the people.  Just because it is not sitting at a church or kneeling down to pray doesn't mean it is not religious!  Our culture and religion involve dance and worship through song. 

So, you get it yet, the dancing and mockery used by the Sioux Mascot is offensive and has little to no respect for our culture and our religion.  I don't think my anciestors fought and died so UND can use the Icon at their sporting events!  US Government tried to extinguish us! I praise the NCAA for standing up and stopping this!  I disagree with Florida State and others who accepted it, I guess they can be bought!
It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. ~Muhammed Ali
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Postby Diamond D » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:14 am

 I don't think my anciestors fought and died so UND can use the Icon at their sporting events!  

So how come FW has a dancing mascot at their sporting events? 

BTW:  I am not trying to be sarcastic.  I am trying to be open minded and learn what I can from this topic.  This is my first post here.  I am just wondering what the difference is between having FW use it and UND use it.  

 

 
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Postby nativegolfer » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:21 pm

Diamond D wrote:
 I don't think my anciestors fought and died so UND can use the Icon at their sporting events!  

So how come FW has a dancing mascot at their sporting events? 

BTW:  I am not trying to be sarcastic.  I am trying to be open minded and learn what I can from this topic.  This is my first post here.  I am just wondering what the difference is between having FW use it and UND use it.  

 

 

Are you serious?  We can do it because thats who we are.  And not person from our community has spoken out against it or has been offended.  Thats why. 
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Postby flatlander » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:37 pm

What's the difference betweening Fighting Sioux and Fighting Irish? How many Sioux have been president of UND and how many were students at UND for the first 75 years of UND's existence? Most presidents of Notre Dame have had an Irish surnames and most of the student body was of Irish descent when they took up the nickname.

Notre Dame was made up mostly of kids who had Irish ancestory and they were saying, "This is who we are. If you don't like it, we'll smack you around." UND didn't have any Sioux around when they chose the nickname and they were never saying, "This is who we are," -  UND is saying, "This is who *you* are." If a school at Standing Rock calls themselves the Sioux, that is the same deal as Notre Dame calling themselves the Irish.

The other key difference is that the Irish government has never asked Notre Dame to change the name and been told, "Hey, shut up, you Micks have enough problems - quit your drinking, stop fighting, and get some dang jobs," - and that's the kind of response the Sioux tribal councils got from UND's alumni association. Let me tell you, if Notre Dame had ever treated the Irish like that, there probably wouldn't be a stone left standing of that place. You can talk all you want about "honoring" folks but actions speaks louder than words.

Anyway, UND should not be suing anybody. They should be working with the Tribes to get ALL their permission and come to an agreement about how to use it. If they can't come to agreement, they can still use the nickname (it's not like the NCAA or the Sioux Tribes can stop them), but in order to keep any semblance of integrity, they would have to drop this pretence that they are honoring the Sioux.

Mandan, Class of '83 - and, yeah, I wish they'd change their nickname.
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Postby rep » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:04 pm

flatlander wrote:What's the difference betweening Fighting Sioux and Fighting Irish? How many Sioux have been president of UND and how many were students at UND for the first 75 years of UND's existence? Most presidents of Notre Dame have had an Irish surnames and most of the student body was of Irish descent when they took up the nickname.

Notre Dame was made up mostly of kids who had Irish ancestory and they were saying, "This is who we are. If you don't like it, we'll smack you around." UND didn't have any Sioux around when they chose the nickname and they were never saying, "This is who we are," -  UND is saying, "This is who *you* are." If a school at Standing Rock calls themselves the Sioux, that is the same deal as Notre Dame calling themselves the Irish.

The other key difference is that the Irish government has never asked Notre Dame to change the name and been told, "Hey, shut up, you Micks have enough problems - quit your drinking, stop fighting, and get some dang jobs," - and that's the kind of response the Sioux tribal councils got from UND's alumni association. Let me tell you, if Notre Dame had ever treated the Irish like that, there probably wouldn't be a stone left standing of that place. You can talk all you want about "honoring" folks but actions speaks louder than words.

Anyway, UND should not be suing anybody. They should be working with the Tribes to get ALL their permission and come to an agreement about how to use it. If they can't come to agreement, they can still use the nickname (it's not like the NCAA or the Sioux Tribes can stop them), but in order to keep any semblance of integrity, they would have to drop this pretence that they are honoring the Sioux.

Mandan, Class of '83 - and, yeah, I wish they'd change their nickname.

great post
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Postby Ming01 » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:18 pm

Indians Alumni wrote:
cdub1 wrote:
Ming01 wrote:
cdub1 wrote:
Ming01 wrote:
Indians Alumni wrote:I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long!  I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname.  Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people.  It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass. 

You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance.  What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people.  There would be holy-heck to pay.  So what makes it right?  Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either.  When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion.  People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it!  How is that not poking fun at the culture?  Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion. 

Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!


"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace?  What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention? 

Where does religion fit into this?

many native americans have their own religions

ok?  still waiting for an answer...

thats as close as i can get to an answer i think the argument he used was dumb


The Native American Dance is the religion.  They aren't dancing out there for the heck of it, let me put it into something you would kinda understand.  Ok, There is the rain dance, that is PRAYING for rain, there is other dances honoring different things, such as a round dance honoring the people.  Just because it is not sitting at a church or kneeling down to pray doesn't mean it is not religious!  Our culture and religion involve dance and worship through song. 

So, you get it yet, the dancing and mockery used by the Sioux Mascot is offensive and has little to no respect for our culture and our religion.  I don't think my anciestors fought and died so UND can use the Icon at their sporting events!  US Government tried to extinguish us! I praise the NCAA for standing up and stopping this!  I disagree with Florida State and others who accepted it, I guess they can be bought!

ok, nothing personal.  i just wanted to know.  thanks.
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Postby rep » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:36 pm

this might sound kind of stupid/redundant, but why can't you let it go?

one of my relatives came over on the mayflower, another fought in the civil war (lied about his age to be able to fight or so the story goes)...i don't hold any ill-will towards the brits or to the south, even with england still referring to america as 'the colonies' or random schools trying to fly confederate flags on government or school buildings...i certainly didn't agree with britain or the confederacy then, but it happened and it is in the past and aren't things totally different now? might be poor examples, but it was the only thing i could think of that had to do with my family that was quite a ways back.

i guess from everything i've gathered, there is more signifigance put on history in the native american culture, than in my culture, but still...after a while doesn't all that hate that can't really be directed at someone other than a relative nameless/faceless target get old? and doesn't that, in turn, hold back a culture?

 
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Postby Diamond D » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:26 am

Are you serious?  We can do it because thats who we are.  And not person from our community has spoken out against it or has been offended.  Thats why. 

I figured that would have been the answer, but I wanted to hear it from you.

What if one student of another ethnicity enrolled at FW and said he/she feels offended by it?  Would you then change the mascot?

So what is the percentage needed to support a Native American logo?  Can New Town use a Native American logo?  Back in the 80's this town was predominately white and now it it predominately Native American. 

Seminoles support Fl State.   Indian's Alumni says he disagrees with it and NOT acceptable.

Fort Tottent supports FW High School.   Yet this is acceptable?  Seems like a double standard.

If we are going to ban Native American logos, then they all need to be banned.
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Postby nativegolfer » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:59 am

Diamond D wrote:
Are you serious?  We can do it because thats who we are.  And not person from our community has spoken out against it or has been offended.  Thats why. 

I figured that would have been the answer, but I wanted to hear it from you.

What if one student of another ethnicity enrolled at FW and said he/she feels offended by it?  Would you then change the mascot?

So what is the percentage needed to support a Native American logo?  Can New Town use a Native American logo?  Back in the 80's this town was predominately white and now it it predominately Native American. 

Seminoles support Fl State.   Indian's Alumni says he disagrees with it and NOT acceptable.

Fort Tottent supports FW High School.   Yet this is acceptable?  Seems like a double standard.

If we are going to ban Native American logos, then they all need to be banned.

I don't understand how it is a double standard.  To me it's totally appropriate for natives to use those logos and nicknames.  To my knowledge there hasn't been one instance where this has been disputed in indian country. 
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Postby Diamond D » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:35 am

To me it's totally appropriate for natives to use those logos and nicknames.  To my knowledge there hasn't been one instance where this has been disputed in indian country. 


Help me understand this.  What is Indian country?   Do you mean the Reservation only or just where their is a higher percentage of Native American's living? 

Are there not Native Americans that go to school at UND?  How about Florida State?

Right now Devils Lake has 30% of their school enrollment is made up of Native Americans.  Could Devils Lake change their name and use a Native logo?

Minneawauken I believe is over  40% now within their enrollment.  Could they use the name or logo?

 

1. Indian's Alumni said that dancing is a religion and shouldn't be at sporting events, yet we see the Native American dancer at the FW basketball games (which however I love it when he goes out and gets the crowd going!) Are they not sporting events?

2.  What constitues when and how the logo should be used.  Should just Native Americans have that say?   My understanding is that many Natives support the use of the name and logo?

I appreciate your feedback nativegolfer.  I am trying to be open about learning about this.

 
Last edited by Diamond D on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby uconn_8 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:35 am

So if its acceptable on the reservations, why can't it be acceptable off of them? The words don't change off the reservation. They still mean the same thing. So if the native american high school's can use them (even schools not on reservations use "Braves" ex. Mandan, Bottineau. I've never heard of anyone having a gripe with them), why shouldn't UND be able to?
Last edited by uconn_8 on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Indians Alumni » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:40 am

rep wrote:this might sound kind of stupid/redundant, but why can't you let it go?

one of my relatives came over on the mayflower, another fought in the civil war (lied about his age to be able to fight or so the story goes)...i don't hold any ill-will towards the brits or to the south, even with england still referring to america as 'the colonies' or random schools trying to fly confederate flags on government or school buildings...i certainly didn't agree with britain or the confederacy then, but it happened and it is in the past and aren't things totally different now? might be poor examples, but it was the only thing i could think of that had to do with my family that was quite a ways back.

i guess from everything i've gathered, there is more signifigance put on history in the native american culture, than in my culture, but still...after a while doesn't all that hate that can't really be directed at someone other than a relative nameless/faceless target get old? and doesn't that, in turn, hold back a culture?

 


Rep, I understand what you are trying to get at, but from a Native American stand point, our culture and being were set to be extinguished.  They put us on reservations and our way of life was taken.  The US Government promised food and shelter, but that didn't happen.  They told us to eat grass if we were hungry. 

When the US fought in wars, they helped rebuild the country, when we gave in to them, they tried to extinquish us!  They gave us rotten meat, spoiled food, and blankets infected with small pox! 

I heared a couple of posts ago, someone talked about free money and food, tell you what, I would have loved to have had my education paid for, I would have loved to have free food, I could have concentrated on studies and athletics only.  I had three jobs in college, two works study and one regular job for housing, and go to school, and play football on top of that! 
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Postby Indians Alumni » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:59 am

Diamond D wrote:
 I don't think my anciestors fought and died so UND can use the Icon at their sporting events!  

So how come FW has a dancing mascot at their sporting events? 

BTW:  I am not trying to be sarcastic.  I am trying to be open minded and learn what I can from this topic.  This is my first post here.  I am just wondering what the difference is between having FW use it and UND use it.  

 

 


The Mascot you are referring to is a known dancer and sings at pow-wows, so he knows what he doing. 

I wonder how many non-native american people went to the local pow-wow held at the hyslop this weekend?  From what I have heard, not to many!  I mean, UND wants to retain the name and be accepted by tribes, so why such a small crowd of Non-Native Americans?  I have been to many Catholic, Baptist, and even Jewish events.  Not really a good showing on UND's part. 
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Postby flatlander » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:06 am

uconn_8 wrote:So if its acceptable on the reservations, why can't it be acceptable off of them? The words don't change off the reservation. They still mean the same thing. So if the native american high school's can use them (even schools not on reservations use "Braves" ex. Mandan, Bottineau. I've never heard of anyone having a gripe with them), why shouldn't UND be able to?


Diamand_d, uconn_8, let's try an analogy. Is driving a car wrong? No. How about driving somebody else's car when they've asked you not to? I think most people would agree that would be wrong. Seriously, you should be able to tell the difference.

A whole lotta Sioux tribal councils have asked UND to stop using the name. In fact, all of them have at one time or another.

There are obvious differences betweeen Bottineau and Mandan as well. First, those are pretty small potatoes. Second, the Sioux don't have the same claim of ownership to the more generic term of "Braves" while only an idiot or a lawyer would say that UND has better or equal claim to the Sioux name than the actual Sioux themselves.

Now, if you are talking about the line of argument that states that the word "Sioux" itself is offensive because of its origins then, yeah, I'd agree that is bogus as long as the reservations still use it, but there is a huge difference between a school on a Sioux reservation using the Sioux name with the approval of the Sioux tribal councils and UND using the Sioux name when so many tribal councils object - and, of course, for UND's first 80 or so years, almost no Sioux kids attended.
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Postby nativegolfer » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:56 am

Diamond D wrote:
To me it's totally appropriate for natives to use those logos and nicknames.  To my knowledge there hasn't been one instance where this has been disputed in indian country. 


Help me understand this.  What is Indian country?   Do you mean the Reservation only or just where their is a higher percentage of Native American's living? 

Are there not Native Americans that go to school at UND?  How about Florida State?

Right now Devils Lake has 30% of their school enrollment is made up of Native Americans.  Could Devils Lake change their name and use a Native logo?

Minneawauken I believe is over  40% now within their enrollment.  Could they use the name or logo?

 

1. Indian's Alumni said that dancing is a religion and shouldn't be at sporting events, yet we see the Native American dancer at the FW basketball games (which however I love it when he goes out and gets the crowd going!) Are they not sporting events?

2.  What constitues when and how the logo should be used.  Should just Native Americans have that say?   My understanding is that many Natives support the use of the name and logo?

I appreciate your feedback nativegolfer.  I am trying to be open about learning about this.

 

I am refering to schools on the reservations.  Again, I think you need to read my post about being native and seeing what natives have to live thru and have lived thru before you can comment on the nickname.  Many NA's do support the name but if one person is genuinely offended then it needs to be changed.  UND needs to consider taking the funds it has raised to pay for the lawsuit and spend it on a new hockey arena cause lets face it, if the racist Englestad hadn't held the school hostage with his threats then this issue would have been settled long ago.    
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Postby Diamond D » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:18 am

I probably should have said this right away, but I support the name change.  Obviously this is in the best interest of the university athletics and the tribes surrounding the university.

My questions weren't intended as sarcasism, more for others to see and learn the information and for me to learn more as well.

Flatlander:  That is probably the best post I have seen on this topic.  Well said. :up:

 

IMHO I think fighting this in the courts is a waste of time and money when other universities won't schedule games even if the courts decide they can keep the Fighting Sioux name.  If UND wants the same kinds of successes that NDSU has had moving into the D-1 world, then the name needs to be changed.

I think UND will draw this out only to play politics with the Engelstad family so they don't pull the support away. 
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Postby Indians Alumni » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:18 am

I would have to agree with that, Engelstad bullied the school into keeping the name, I remember the name change was on the bill, but old Ralph said if they changed the name, they could not use the facilities, What about converting the Alerus into something that could house basketball or Hockey.  I think the hockey progam alone can build a nice facility to compete with the Ralph. 

I agree with NG, having the state get involved is way overboard and is morally wrong!  This goes to show you how far behind ND is, and how much of a "Good Ol'Boys" state ND is! If the state is not going to change how are we going to expect the University to change.  Like I have stated before, Thank God the NCAA has stepped in.

I hear that several schools will not schedule UND due to the Mascot. I applaud those schools for taking a stand.  They see the moral wrongness in the use of the name. 
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Postby member01 » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:50 am

from a native american on here what is so abusive about : The Univeristy of North Dakota Fighting Sioux.  they didnt pick the name to sterotype natives
Last edited by member01 on Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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