Fighting Sioux???

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Postby BaldEagle » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:07 am

Roughrider wrote:Im going to have to go with Baseball18 on this one. there maybe racism today but changing the nickname is sure not going to change the racism that is facing the native americans. I almost think that it is going to make it worse, especially with the fans of UND who cherish the nickname.


Right now, there seems to be annimosity towards Native American's that want the name changed.  For example, I haven't heard anything good said about Russell Means during this whole nickname debate.  IMO, these feelings won't change whether the name is changed or not.   Even so, it's the NCAA that is pushing for the change.
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Postby nativegolfer » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:14 am

Roughrider wrote:
baseball18 wrote:
nativegolfer wrote:You non natives just will not understand the situation unless you are native and live on a reservation and experience what it is like to be native in this day and age.  Racism is alive and well in ND.  Every native has had an experience with racism and when you tie the two together you get very hard feelings toward the nickname.  And, like I said, you just cannot duplicate those feelings unless you are native.  I am a UND grad and I can remember several racist remarks and actions that where directed at me.  I am lucky that I was taught by my kunsi to handle those situations.  The stories she told me about the racism her generation had to tolerate would make your head spin.  Times change and it's time to change the UND nickname.  And what makes it worse is that the STATE of ND has taken legal action on this matter!   

If they take away the logo and nickname do u really think that's going to make people not racist?  NO!  So it has nothing to do with the logo.  There's always going to be racism.
Im going to have to go with Baseball18 on this one. there maybe racism today but changing the nickname is sure not going to change the racism that is facing the native americans. I almost think that it is going to make it worse, especially with the fans of UND who cherish the nickname.
That might be one of the most assinine statements I have ever heard.  If you have a group of people who are willing to embrace a nickname so much that it causes prejudice toward a race of people then how do you reconcile that?  It just gives more reason to change the name.  Theres a Pow Wow this weekend in GF at the Hyslop.  This is a golden opportunity for UND students and staff to drink in some NA culture and show support.  In the past I have been dissappointed by how few non natives attend the celebration.  I remember when I was attending UND and living in the dorms I would invite some of my non native friends to come with me to the dance but hardly anyone would want to come and the number one reason is that they feared for there safety!  How ignorant is that? 
Last edited by nativegolfer on Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Schwab » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:46 am

nativegolfer wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
baseball18 wrote:
nativegolfer wrote:You non natives just will not understand the situation unless you are native and live on a reservation and experience what it is like to be native in this day and age.  Racism is alive and well in ND.  Every native has had an experience with racism and when you tie the two together you get very hard feelings toward the nickname.  And, like I said, you just cannot duplicate those feelings unless you are native.  I am a UND grad and I can remember several racist remarks and actions that where directed at me.  I am lucky that I was taught by my kunsi to handle those situations.  The stories she told me about the racism her generation had to tolerate would make your head spin.  Times change and it's time to change the UND nickname.  And what makes it worse is that the STATE of ND has taken legal action on this matter!   

If they take away the logo and nickname do u really think that's going to make people not racist?  NO!  So it has nothing to do with the logo.  There's always going to be racism.
Im going to have to go with Baseball18 on this one. there maybe racism today but changing the nickname is sure not going to change the racism that is facing the native americans. I almost think that it is going to make it worse, especially with the fans of UND who cherish the nickname.
That might be one of the most assinine statements I have ever heard.  If you have a group of people who are willing to embrace a nickname so much that it causes prejudice toward a race of people then how do you reconcile that?  It just gives more reason to change the name.  Theres a Pow Wow this weekend in GF at the Hyslop.  This is a golden opportunity for UND students and staff to drink in some NA culture and show support.  In the past I have been dissappointed by how few non natives attend the celebration.  I remember when I was attending UND and living in the dorms I would invite some of my non native friends to come with me to the dance but hardly anyone would want to come and the number one reason is that they feared for there safety!  How ignorant is that?
They fear the unknown......and most of the ignorance didnt start with them.....it was passed down through the generations......90 percent of college kids share their parents beliefs on almost everything.....I myself once attended a Pow Wow in Bismarck....and I found it very interesting and enjoyable.
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Postby Roughrider » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:28 am

nativegolfer wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
baseball18 wrote:
nativegolfer wrote:You non natives just will not understand the situation unless you are native and live on a reservation and experience what it is like to be native in this day and age.  Racism is alive and well in ND.  Every native has had an experience with racism and when you tie the two together you get very hard feelings toward the nickname.  And, like I said, you just cannot duplicate those feelings unless you are native.  I am a UND grad and I can remember several racist remarks and actions that where directed at me.  I am lucky that I was taught by my kunsi to handle those situations.  The stories she told me about the racism her generation had to tolerate would make your head spin.  Times change and it's time to change the UND nickname.  And what makes it worse is that the STATE of ND has taken legal action on this matter!   

If they take away the logo and nickname do u really think that's going to make people not racist?  NO!  So it has nothing to do with the logo.  There's always going to be racism.
Im going to have to go with Baseball18 on this one. there maybe racism today but changing the nickname is sure not going to change the racism that is facing the native americans. I almost think that it is going to make it worse, especially with the fans of UND who cherish the nickname.
That might be one of the most assinine statements I have ever heard.  If you have a group of people who are willing to embrace a nickname so much that it causes prejudice toward a race of people then how do you reconcile that?  It just gives more reason to change the name.  Theres a Pow Wow this weekend in GF at the Hyslop.  This is a golden opportunity for UND students and staff to drink in some NA culture and show support.  In the past I have been dissappointed by how few non natives attend the celebration.  I remember when I was attending UND and living in the dorms I would invite some of my non native friends to come with me to the dance but hardly anyone would want to come and the number one reason is that they feared for there safety!  How ignorant is that? 

i didnt really word that right. The new generation of fans like the students and people under the age of about 40 really do cherish the nickname very well and talk with honor about the nickname and logo. What i meant to say is that the older generation Alumni are the ones who are going to be mad. And you cant change what they believe because they are very stubborn


 
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Postby BaldEagle » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:14 pm

Roughrider wrote:i didnt really word that right. The new generation of fans like the students and people under the age of about 40 really do cherish the nickname very well and talk with honor about the nickname and logo. What i meant to say is that the older generation Alumni are the ones who are going to be mad. And you cant change what they believe because they are very stubborn


 

So now you are stereotyping people over 40. :P

I don't think you can pigeon-hole anyone into an age catagory.  There are many young alumni that are going to be mad and are stubborn also. :D
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Postby BaldEagle » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:30 pm

The Schwab wrote:They fear the unknown......and most of the ignorance didnt start with them.....it was passed down through the generations......90 percent of college kids share their parents beliefs on almost everything.....I myself once attended a Pow Wow in Bismarck....and I found it very interesting and enjoyable.

I know you didn't say it, but some people will take it as the parents beliefs are wrong.  Many parents have good beliefs, some kids get mixed up in the wrong crowd.
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Postby always a sports season » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:13 pm


i didnt really word that right. The new generation of fans like the students and people under the age of about 40 really do cherish the nickname very well and talk with honor about the nickname and logo. What i meant to say is that the older generation Alumni are the ones who are going to be mad. And you cant change what they believe because they are very stubborn

 
I think you're right.  People don't want their own tradition changed.
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Postby Indians Alumni » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:06 am

always a sports season wrote:

i didnt really word that right. The new generation of fans like the students and people under the age of about 40 really do cherish the nickname very well and talk with honor about the nickname and logo. What i meant to say is that the older generation Alumni are the ones who are going to be mad. And you cant change what they believe because they are very stubborn

 
I think you're right.  People don't want their own tradition changed.
So why should we have to change out beliefs for those few?  I saw in a post that talked racism is always going to be here, so does that mean quit, does that mean we give up and let people do what they want?  There has to be a stand!
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Postby power-aid14 » Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:19 pm

how is "fighting souix" offensive?
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Postby klg_11 » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:53 pm

power-aid14 wrote:how is "fighting souix" offensive?

why isnt there an uproar about fighting irish???
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Postby nativegolfer » Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:01 am

klg_11 wrote:
power-aid14 wrote:how is "fighting souix" offensive?

why isnt there an uproar about fighting irish???

Maybe because there wasn't an effort by the US government to exterminate them, put them on reservations, give them blankets infected with smallpox, sell them gallons of liquor dirt cheap and jack up the price of milk and bread, and force them to give up their culture and way of life.   
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Postby klg_11 » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:20 am

nativegolfer wrote:
klg_11 wrote:
power-aid14 wrote:how is "fighting souix" offensive?

why isnt there an uproar about fighting irish???

Maybe because there wasn't an effort by the US government to exterminate them, put them on reservations, give them blankets infected with smallpox, sell them gallons of liquor dirt cheap and jack up the price of milk and bread, and force them to give up their culture and way of life.   

ok, but does that make using a native american mascot wrong? i think that the Sioux mascot is symbolizing bravery and i thnk it is a good mascot.
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Postby member01 » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:26 am

don't native americans get things like milk and cheese for free from everyone's taxes?
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Postby nativegolfer » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:37 am

member01 wrote:don't native americans get things like milk and cheese for free from everyone's taxes?

Gee, I haven't gotten any.  Do you know where I go to get these items for free? 
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Postby The Schwab » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:03 am

nativegolfer wrote:
member01 wrote:don't native americans get things like milk and cheese for free from everyone's taxes?

Gee, I haven't gotten any.  Do you know where I go to get these items for free?
I really dont see this going anywhere besides more racist comments...so can we maybe get back on track so they dont close this discussion too?
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Postby rep » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:30 am

The Schwab wrote:
nativegolfer wrote:
member01 wrote:don't native americans get things like milk and cheese for free from everyone's taxes?

Gee, I haven't gotten any.  Do you know where I go to get these items for free?
I really dont see this going anywhere besides more racist comments...so can we maybe get back on track so they dont close this discussion too?

agreed
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Postby NDSportsFan » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:40 pm

 I think most people have already made up their minds about it, or just want to stay out of it (like me).  Since we can't come to a consencenus they might as well settle it in the courts, like they are now.
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Postby ndfan » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:21 pm

[user=227]nativegolfer[/user] wrote:
klg_11 wrote:
power-aid14 wrote:how is "fighting souix" offensive?

why isnt there an uproar about fighting irish???

Maybe because there wasn't an effort by the US government to exterminate them, put them on reservations, give them blankets infected with smallpox, sell them gallons of liquor dirt cheap and jack up the price of milk and bread, and force them to give up their culture and way of life.   


I agree with your explanation NG.
Last edited by ndfan on Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby klg_11 » Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:42 pm

ndfan wrote:[user=227]nativegolfer[/user] wrote:
klg_11 wrote:
power-aid14 wrote:how is "fighting souix" offensive?

why isnt there an uproar about fighting irish???

Maybe because there wasn't an effort by the US government to exterminate them, put them on reservations, give them blankets infected with smallpox, sell them gallons of liquor dirt cheap and jack up the price of milk and bread, and force them to give up their culture and way of life.? ?


I agree with your explanation NG.
he has a good statement and i agree that should have never happened but i dont get how that is relevant to the fighting sioux nickname
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Postby Saucesauer » Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:42 am

Indians Alumni wrote:I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long!  I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname.  Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people.  It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass. 

You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance.  What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people.  There would be holy-heck to pay.  So what makes it right?  Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either.  When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion.  People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it!  How is that not poking fun at the culture?  Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion. 

Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!


"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace?  What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention? 
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Postby Saucesauer » Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:50 am

Scince und hasnt won a nat title in a couple of years lets say if they won 3-5 straight in hockey would this whole dibocle end because everyone would be happy a team with a native american mascot is doing to good or would more people have a hissy fit that they are being embarrassed at a national level i would gladly have them change their names to the fighting people under 5' 3'' so than it would be like a goood team wants to honor me
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Postby Ming01 » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:44 am

Indians Alumni wrote:I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long!  I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname.  Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people.  It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass. 

You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance.  What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people.  There would be holy-heck to pay.  So what makes it right?  Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either.  When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion.  People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it!  How is that not poking fun at the culture?  Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion. 

Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!


"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace?  What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention? 

Where does religion fit into this?
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Postby cdub1 » Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:08 pm

Ming01 wrote:
Indians Alumni wrote:I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long!  I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname.  Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people.  It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass. 

You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance.  What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people.  There would be holy-heck to pay.  So what makes it right?  Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either.  When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion.  People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it!  How is that not poking fun at the culture?  Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion. 

Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!


"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace?  What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention? 

Where does religion fit into this?

many native americans have their own religions
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Postby Ming01 » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:32 pm

cdub1 wrote:
Ming01 wrote:
Indians Alumni wrote:I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long!  I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname.  Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people.  It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass. 

You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance.  What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people.  There would be holy-heck to pay.  So what makes it right?  Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either.  When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion.  People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it!  How is that not poking fun at the culture?  Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion. 

Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!


"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace?  What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention? 

Where does religion fit into this?

many native americans have their own religions

ok?  still waiting for an answer...
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Postby cdub1 » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:54 pm

Ming01 wrote:
cdub1 wrote:
Ming01 wrote:
Indians Alumni wrote:I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long!  I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname.  Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people.  It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass. 

You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance.  What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people.  There would be holy-heck to pay.  So what makes it right?  Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either.  When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion.  People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it!  How is that not poking fun at the culture?  Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion. 

Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!


"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace?  What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention? 

Where does religion fit into this?

many native americans have their own religions

ok?  still waiting for an answer...

thats as close as i can get to an answer i think the argument he used was dumb
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