Fighting Sioux???

No smack talk is allowed here.

Postby T-Bone » Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:09 pm

Roughrider wrote:
T-Bone wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
T-Bone wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
knights4 wrote:ur tellin me when that when all the UND head honcho's had a meeting for the team name, some guy says hey how about sioux, they kill bison, and the Dean and the school President, and everybody else say yeah great idea, that's rediculas, that sounds exactly what a 4 yr. old would say, u gotta give them more credit then that

That is exactly how it happened. i have talked to some people at the University and thats exactly what they said and i have heard that from a number of different people as well.
Haha, i'm sure that's exactly how it went down. Wow, how dumb.

Whatever you can have your opinions

Yes i kno i can. Just saying that more than likely that is not what really happened, and i would be willing to bet i'm not alone in believing that

Now do you believe it T-bone

I dunno, it make sense in the way of beating the NDSU bison, but not naming them the Sioux just because they kill actual bison. I'll give it to u on the NDSU.
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Postby klg_11 » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:59 pm

T-Bone wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
T-Bone wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
T-Bone wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
knights4 wrote:ur tellin me when that when all the UND head honcho's had a meeting for the team name, some guy says hey how about sioux, they kill bison, and the Dean and the school President, and everybody else say yeah great idea, that's rediculas, that sounds exactly what a 4 yr. old would say, u gotta give them more credit then that

That is exactly how it happened. i have talked to some people at the University and thats exactly what they said and i have heard that from a number of different people as well.
Haha, i'm sure that's exactly how it went down. Wow, how dumb.

Whatever you can have your opinions

Yes i kno i can. Just saying that more than likely that is not what really happened, and i would be willing to bet i'm not alone in believing that

Now do you believe it T-bone

I dunno, it make sense in the way of beating the NDSU bison, but not naming them the Sioux just because they kill actual bison. I'll give it to u on the NDSU.
haha thats what he meant the whole time, the NDSU bison., he never meant actual bison, why would they name it like that:clap:
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Postby T-Bone » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:36 am

klg_11 wrote:
T-Bone wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
T-Bone wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
T-Bone wrote:
Roughrider wrote:
knights4 wrote:ur tellin me when that when all the UND head honcho's had a meeting for the team name, some guy says hey how about sioux, they kill bison, and the Dean and the school President, and everybody else say yeah great idea, that's rediculas, that sounds exactly what a 4 yr. old would say, u gotta give them more credit then that

That is exactly how it happened. i have talked to some people at the University and thats exactly what they said and i have heard that from a number of different people as well.
Haha, i'm sure that's exactly how it went down. Wow, how dumb.

Whatever you can have your opinions

Yes i kno i can. Just saying that more than likely that is not what really happened, and i would be willing to bet i'm not alone in believing that

Now do you believe it T-bone

I dunno, it make sense in the way of beating the NDSU bison, but not naming them the Sioux just because they kill actual bison. I'll give it to u on the NDSU.
haha thats what he meant the whole time, the NDSU bison., he never meant actual bison, why would they name it like that:clap:

Haha, i dunno. Now u see why i didn't believe him in the first place. Ya, the whole NDSU bison flew right by me.
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Postby Chris Hansen, Dateline NB » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:42 am

uconn_8 wrote:
BaldEagle wrote:If the name is offensive to a group or subset of a group of people, why not change it.  UND has changed their name in the past.  They could set a great example by changing their nickname, and turning a new positive leaf in their history.

I still don't understand why its offensive? Do they think UND is making a mockery of the sioux? No, they're honoring them. I think they should stop whining about it. Everyone that goes to school there takes pride in the name, no one bashes it.


"Everyone that goes to school there takes pride in the name, no one bashes it."

Okay... no.  You're trying to vouch for every student here at UND?  I don't know if you're trying to say that every student here supports it, but that couldn't be more wrong if you are.  I'm not proud of the name, and I think it needs to be changed.

UND needs to change the name, the tribes don't support us, and the NCAA doesn't support us.  And besides, with the big jump to Division I coming up, now is the perfect time to turn a new page and start fresh with a new nickname.  It could be something that involves the entire campus with suggestions for logos, mascots, and colors.  All of this money being wasted on a stupid court case that's doomed to fail could be spent on much more beneficial things to the University, it really not cool that we have to wait all the way until December for the court case to actually start, I wish they would pull their heads out of their asses and just change it.  Time to move on.


Another thing, remember NDSU's breakthrough football game against the Gophers? The Bison nearly upset Minnesota and now this game is going to draw a lot more attention, not to mention the fact that it made a huge statement for NDSU football.  Well, Minnesota along with Wisconsin and Iowa have said that, as long as we have the nickname,  they will not play us in any sport that they don't have to due to being in the same conference.

This whole thing is just ridiculous now, the costs are really outweighing the benefits.  It's time to start fresh.
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Postby The Schwab » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:35 am

Chris Hansen, Dateline NBC wrote:
uconn_8 wrote:
BaldEagle wrote:If the name is offensive to a group or subset of a group of people, why not change it.  UND has changed their name in the past.  They could set a great example by changing their nickname, and turning a new positive leaf in their history.

I still don't understand why its offensive? Do they think UND is making a mockery of the sioux? No, they're honoring them. I think they should stop whining about it. Everyone that goes to school there takes pride in the name, no one bashes it.


"Everyone that goes to school there takes pride in the name, no one bashes it."

Okay... no.  You're trying to vouch for every student here at UND?  I don't know if you're trying to say that every student here supports it, but that couldn't be more wrong if you are.  I'm not proud of the name, and I think it needs to be changed.

UND needs to change the name, the tribes don't support us, and the NCAA doesn't support us.  And besides, with the big jump to Division I coming up, now is the perfect time to turn a new page and start fresh with a new nickname.  It could be something that involves the entire campus with suggestions for logos, mascots, and colors.  All of this money being wasted on a stupid court case that's doomed to fail could be spent on much more beneficial things to the University, it really not cool that we have to wait all the way until December for the court case to actually start, I wish they would pull their heads out of their asses and just change it.  Time to move on.


Another thing, remember NDSU's breakthrough football game against the Gophers? The Bison nearly upset Minnesota and now this game is going to draw a lot more attention, not to mention the fact that it made a huge statement for NDSU football.  Well, Minnesota along with Wisconsin and Iowa have said that, as long as we have the nickname,  they will not play us in any sport that they don't have to due to being in the same conference.

This whole thing is just ridiculous now, the costs are really outweighing the benefits.  It's time to start fresh.
umm....then wont they have to kiss goodbye to the Ralph and Betty?
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Postby Chris Hansen, Dateline NB » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:16 am

The Schwab wrote:
Chris Hansen, Dateline NBC wrote:
uconn_8 wrote:
BaldEagle wrote:If the name is offensive to a group or subset of a group of people, why not change it.  UND has changed their name in the past.  They could set a great example by changing their nickname, and turning a new positive leaf in their history.

I still don't understand why its offensive? Do they think UND is making a mockery of the sioux? No, they're honoring them. I think they should stop whining about it. Everyone that goes to school there takes pride in the name, no one bashes it.


"Everyone that goes to school there takes pride in the name, no one bashes it."

Okay... no.  You're trying to vouch for every student here at UND?  I don't know if you're trying to say that every student here supports it, but that couldn't be more wrong if you are.  I'm not proud of the name, and I think it needs to be changed.

UND needs to change the name, the tribes don't support us, and the NCAA doesn't support us.  And besides, with the big jump to Division I coming up, now is the perfect time to turn a new page and start fresh with a new nickname.  It could be something that involves the entire campus with suggestions for logos, mascots, and colors.  All of this money being wasted on a stupid court case that's doomed to fail could be spent on much more beneficial things to the University, it really not cool that we have to wait all the way until December for the court case to actually start, I wish they would pull their heads out of their asses and just change it.  Time to move on.


Another thing, remember NDSU's breakthrough football game against the Gophers? The Bison nearly upset Minnesota and now this game is going to draw a lot more attention, not to mention the fact that it made a huge statement for NDSU football.  Well, Minnesota along with Wisconsin and Iowa have said that, as long as we have the nickname,  they will not play us in any sport that they don't have to due to being in the same conference.

This whole thing is just ridiculous now, the costs are really outweighing the benefits.  It's time to start fresh.
umm....then wont they have to kiss goodbye to the Ralph and Betty?


You do bring up a good point, and I did some reading.

From a USA Today article:
"Kupchella did have a big tiff with Engelstad during construction of the building when he indicated that he might agree to revise the mascot and logo.
Engelstad refused and threatened to stop work on the site if that happened.
Under the school's contacts with Engelstad, however, that couldn't happen. But Engelstad convinced the state Board of Education to agree that the school could never change its mascot."

I couldn't find any details describing what would exactly happen if UND did change it's mascot

"Even if the NCAA rules against the school and forces a change, The Ralph won't have to remove its logos or Sioux references. Although it is on campus, the trust owns the building.
Kupchella says that UND's contract deal calls for the building to transfer to the university in 26 more years. At that time, the logos could be changed."

It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out, but I think the two sides could come to an agreement to allow UND sports to continue playing in the arenas.

But the whole nickname issue goes much larger than which arenas they play in.
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Postby The Schwab » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:06 am

well i'm sure that weighs in pretty heavy on the minds of the committee's when voting on change.
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Postby Roughrider » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:52 am

In my point of view, even if UND loses the lawsuit (which i dont think they will) i think that they will still keep the nickname and logos. the only thing they are sacrafising is home playoff games. i dont think that they are that important. It does bring in more money to the university but I think that they will continue to use it anyway
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Postby Chris Hansen, Dateline NB » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:17 am

Roughrider wrote:In my point of view, even if UND loses the lawsuit (which i dont think they will) i think that they will still keep the nickname and logos. the only thing they are sacrafising is home playoff games. i dont think that they are that important. It does bring in more money to the university but I think that they will continue to use it anyway


Home playoff games aren't that important? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  Maybe on a planet where people don't cheer at games.
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Postby Indians Alumni » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:58 am

uconn_8 wrote:
BaldEagle wrote:If the name is offensive to a group or subset of a group of people, why not change it.  UND has changed their name in the past.  They could set a great example by changing their nickname, and turning a new positive leaf in their history.

I still don't understand why its offensive? Do they think UND is making a mockery of the sioux? No, they're honoring them. I think they should stop whining about it. Everyone that goes to school there takes pride in the name, no one bashes it.

There are some isolated instances where thugs on UND Campus have vandalized the Native American Center and the Tipi they had out front out of ignorance & retaliation to the name change issue!  You tell me what other race of humans are put out there to be made a mascot!  If we did this to Afro-Americans there would be an uproar, if we did this to Asian-Americans another uproar.  They have the numbers to support the protest.  The number of Native Americans are far less than other minority goups.  So I believe that the NCAA has stepped in to help.  I do take some offense to the Sioux name, it is not the name of the tribe it represents.  There is Dakota, Nakota, and Lakota!  That is the true name of the tribes represented by the Sioux name!
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Postby Baller » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:37 am

Indians Alumni wrote:
uconn_8 wrote:
BaldEagle wrote:If the name is offensive to a group or subset of a group of people, why not change it.  UND has changed their name in the past.  They could set a great example by changing their nickname, and turning a new positive leaf in their history.

I still don't understand why its offensive? Do they think UND is making a mockery of the sioux? No, they're honoring them. I think they should stop whining about it. Everyone that goes to school there takes pride in the name, no one bashes it.

There are some isolated instances where thugs on UND Campus have vandalized the Native American Center and the Tipi they had out front out of ignorance & retaliation to the name change issue!  You tell me what other race of humans are put out there to be made a mascot!  If we did this to Afro-Americans there would be an uproar, if we did this to Asian-Americans another uproar.  They have the numbers to support the protest.  The number of Native Americans are far less than other minority goups.  So I believe that the NCAA has stepped in to help.  I do take some offense to the Sioux name, it is not the name of the tribe it represents.  There is Dakota, Nakota, and Lakota!  That is the true name of the tribes represented by the Sioux name!

I'm sorry IA...I am not sure that I understand that post....are you saying that North Dakota only has those three tribes???  because that is wrong.  I guess I don't understand.  Please claify.
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Postby Ming01 » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:26 am

Roughrider wrote:In my point of view, even if UND loses the lawsuit (which i dont think they will) i think that they will still keep the nickname and logos. the only thing they are sacrafising is home playoff games. i dont think that they are that important. It does bring in more money to the university but I think that they will continue to use it anyway

what a joke
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Postby bam pretzelz » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:29 am

i dont see whats wrong with the name its fine the way it is
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Postby always a sports season » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:16 pm

The problem probably has more to do with NDSU because they are the ones who have defaced the name and made a mockery of it. 

Nobody likes to break a tradition but when something is causing people to be offended and costing so much  money when there are other problems to be addressing, it's time to make a change. 
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Postby always a sports season » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:26 pm

Didn't I hear the suggestion once to change it to the Mighty Sioux?  That made sense to me at the time although I thought sports teams are always "fighting to victory" Fighting doesn't have to be a fist fight. 

One point that was made in this discussion is that Sioux is a French word and not an Indian word. So if Sioux is inappropriate because of that  maybe we should use Voyeageurs  (not sure of the correct spelling) who were the French that were some of the first Europeans to come into this region.  Seems a little hard to chant though.  :-)
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Postby ndfan » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:53 pm

$300,000 bill -- half-paid
By Joseph Marks, Herald Staff Writer
Published Wednesday, April 11, 2007


A Utah law firm has billed more than $300,000 for work on UND's lawsuit against the NCAA over the Fighting Sioux nickname, but only about half that amount has been paid, according to documents released by the UND Foundation.
Those documents, released Tuesday after an open records request by the Herald, show three attorneys with Fabian and Clenendin, a Salt Lake City-based law firm, have billed a total of $315,743 for their work on the case.

The UND Foundation has paid Fabian and Clenendin $164,598, the entire amount collected by the organization since it began fundraising to support UND's lawsuit. The foundation established the donation fund after attorneys began the process of shutting down a separate fund created by a UND alumnus, Mark Foss, who suffered a heart attack in March.

The Utah law firm has billed $151,145 that has not yet been paid. A bill for $5,000 also is outstanding to the office of North Dakota Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem, who is handling the case on UND's behalf. Stenehjem said his office has billed a total of $37,000 so far, $32,000 of which have been paid.

Confident of funds

UND Foundation Executive Director Tim O'Keefe said Tuesday he is confident more donations will come in to cover the remaining legal fees and any future fees.

"President Kupchella said he feels confident the resources are there to continue the litigation," O'Keefe said, referring to a March 15 statement by UND President Charles Kupchella, in which he told members of the State Board of Higher Education that one or more donors have pledged to personally cover any shortfall in the litigation fund if the fund runs out of money before the lawsuit is complete.

"He continues to give us his assurance," O'Keefe said. "As bills come in, they'll be paid, and we have no reason to believe otherwise."

No solicitingThe foundation will not actively solicit donations to cover the lawsuit and will not use any money for legal fees that wasn't donated for that purpose, O'Keefe said.

The Salt Lake City attorneys are working as special assistant attorneys general in the nickname case and are supervised by Stenehjem's office.

UND is suing the NCAA over a mandate barring the school from displaying its Fighting Sioux logo in postseason play or hosting playoff games. The school won a temporary injunction allowing it to retain its nickname until the case goes to trial Dec. 10.

O'Keefe said he does not know whether any money remains in the fund organized by Foss and managed by Caldis, Tingum and Tingum Ltd., a Grand Forks law firm.

Kupchella said March 22, about $200,000 had been donated to support the lawsuit by about 170 donors. That would be a rough approximation of the total $196,598 paid out so far to attorneys handling the lawsuit.

The NCAA has not released how much it has spent on its end of the lawsuit.

Attorney fees on both sides are likely to rise significantly before the case comes to trial. UND's attorneys have said they plan to travel to colleges across the country to take depositions from NCAA members.

UND's lawsuit alleges, among other things, the NCAA acted in violation of its bylaws by imposing the nickname mandate after only a vote of its executive committee, rather than taking it to the full membership.
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Postby nativegolfer » Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:52 am

You non natives just will not understand the situation unless you are native and live on a reservation and experience what it is like to be native in this day and age.  Racism is alive and well in ND.  Every native has had an experience with racism and when you tie the two together you get very hard feelings toward the nickname.  And, like I said, you just cannot duplicate those feelings unless you are native.  I am a UND grad and I can remember several racist remarks and actions that where directed at me.  I am lucky that I was taught by my kunsi to handle those situations.  The stories she told me about the racism her generation had to tolerate would make your head spin.  Times change and it's time to change the UND nickname.  And what makes it worse is that the STATE of ND has taken legal action on this matter!   
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Postby Ming01 » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:23 am

nativegolfer wrote:You non natives just will not understand the situation unless you are native and live on a reservation and experience what it is like to be native in this day and age.  Racism is alive and well in ND.  Every native has had an experience with racism and when you tie the two together you get very hard feelings toward the nickname.  And, like I said, you just cannot duplicate those feelings unless you are native.  I am a UND grad and I can remember several racist remarks and actions that where directed at me.  I am lucky that I was taught by my kunsi to handle those situations.  The stories she told me about the racism her generation had to tolerate would make your head spin.  Times change and it's time to change the UND nickname.  And what makes it worse is that the STATE of ND has taken legal action on this matter!   

that is very sad to hear.  But what I dont understand is ppl making such a big deal of UND's name and Junior high/high schools names (watcher changed from the warriors to the wildcats), when there's schools on reservations with names like this as well.  I've said this before. but if UND has to change it's name, then make Standing Rock change it's name too.  And all the other schools with so-called offensive names.
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Postby baseball18 » Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:41 pm

nativegolfer wrote:You non natives just will not understand the situation unless you are native and live on a reservation and experience what it is like to be native in this day and age.  Racism is alive and well in ND.  Every native has had an experience with racism and when you tie the two together you get very hard feelings toward the nickname.  And, like I said, you just cannot duplicate those feelings unless you are native.  I am a UND grad and I can remember several racist remarks and actions that where directed at me.  I am lucky that I was taught by my kunsi to handle those situations.  The stories she told me about the racism her generation had to tolerate would make your head spin.  Times change and it's time to change the UND nickname.  And what makes it worse is that the STATE of ND has taken legal action on this matter!   

If they take away the logo and nickname do u really think that's going to make people not racist?  NO!  So it has nothing to do with the logo.  There's always going to be racism.
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Postby always a sports season » Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:00 pm

baseball18 wrote:
nativegolfer wrote:You non natives just will not understand the situation unless you are native and live on a reservation and experience what it is like to be native in this day and age.  Racism is alive and well in ND.  Every native has had an experience with racism and when you tie the two together you get very hard feelings toward the nickname.  And, like I said, you just cannot duplicate those feelings unless you are native.  I am a UND grad and I can remember several racist remarks and actions that where directed at me.  I am lucky that I was taught by my kunsi to handle those situations.  The stories she told me about the racism her generation had to tolerate would make your head spin.  Times change and it's time to change the UND nickname.  And what makes it worse is that the STATE of ND has taken legal action on this matter!   

If they take away the logo and nickname do u really think that's going to make people not racist?  NO!  So it has nothing to do with the logo.  There's always going to be racism.

You are right - we really don't know unless we have faced the same situations you have. 

And I don't want to believe there will always be racism but if we're not willing to fight it or respect someone's opinion when they're offended we are doomed to continue racism.
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Postby Batman » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:05 pm

 Actually there have already been many, many cases of high schools changing their mascots because of native american imagery, but I believe it's done on a state-by-state, or individual basis.  You can do a a google search on "high school mascot change" and you will get a pretty extensive list.  It appears most of these were done voluntarily by predominantly non-native american schools. 
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Postby Indians Alumni » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:58 am

Baller wrote:
Indians Alumni wrote:
uconn_8 wrote:
BaldEagle wrote:If the name is offensive to a group or subset of a group of people, why not change it.  UND has changed their name in the past.  They could set a great example by changing their nickname, and turning a new positive leaf in their history.

I still don't understand why its offensive? Do they think UND is making a mockery of the sioux? No, they're honoring them. I think they should stop whining about it. Everyone that goes to school there takes pride in the name, no one bashes it.

There are some isolated instances where thugs on UND Campus have vandalized the Native American Center and the Tipi they had out front out of ignorance & retaliation to the name change issue!  You tell me what other race of humans are put out there to be made a mascot!  If we did this to Afro-Americans there would be an uproar, if we did this to Asian-Americans another uproar.  They have the numbers to support the protest.  The number of Native Americans are far less than other minority goups.  So I believe that the NCAA has stepped in to help.  I do take some offense to the Sioux name, it is not the name of the tribe it represents.  There is Dakota, Nakota, and Lakota!  That is the true name of the tribes represented by the Sioux name!

I'm sorry IA...I am not sure that I understand that post....are you saying that North Dakota only has those three tribes???  because that is wrong.  I guess I don't understand.  Please claify.


Those are the three tribes that the name "Sioux" represent in ND.  The other tribes are Chippewa, Arikara, Mandan, Hidatsa (not sure on the spelling). 

The Racism that NG talks about is live and strong in the town just north about 13 miles.  For a town that gets all the business and money from the community just south.  You'd think there would be a little more hospitality there, but all you get is followed in stores and talked about in whispers! 

It is tough to think that this stuff goes on even today! 
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Postby BaldEagle » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:18 am

Indians Alumni wrote:The Racism that NG talks about is live and strong in the town just north about 13 miles.  For a town that gets all the business and money from the community just south.  You'd think there would be a little more hospitality there, but all you get is followed in stores and talked about in whispers! 

It is tough to think that this stuff goes on even today! 

I'm a non-native, and I have lived in Devils Lake and witnessed the Racism by some of the residents towards my native friends there.  Yes, racism is still alive, but there has been progress over time.  Still lots of room for improvement.
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Postby Roughrider » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:58 pm

baseball18 wrote:
nativegolfer wrote:You non natives just will not understand the situation unless you are native and live on a reservation and experience what it is like to be native in this day and age.  Racism is alive and well in ND.  Every native has had an experience with racism and when you tie the two together you get very hard feelings toward the nickname.  And, like I said, you just cannot duplicate those feelings unless you are native.  I am a UND grad and I can remember several racist remarks and actions that where directed at me.  I am lucky that I was taught by my kunsi to handle those situations.  The stories she told me about the racism her generation had to tolerate would make your head spin.  Times change and it's time to change the UND nickname.  And what makes it worse is that the STATE of ND has taken legal action on this matter!   

If they take away the logo and nickname do u really think that's going to make people not racist?  NO!  So it has nothing to do with the logo.  There's always going to be racism.
Im going to have to go with Baseball18 on this one. there maybe racism today but changing the nickname is sure not going to change the racism that is facing the native americans. I almost think that it is going to make it worse, especially with the fans of UND who cherish the nickname.
GO SIOUX GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby BaldEagle » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:07 am

Roughrider wrote:Im going to have to go with Baseball18 on this one. there maybe racism today but changing the nickname is sure not going to change the racism that is facing the native americans. I almost think that it is going to make it worse, especially with the fans of UND who cherish the nickname.


Right now, there seems to be annimosity towards Native American's that want the name changed.  For example, I haven't heard anything good said about Russell Means during this whole nickname debate.  IMO, these feelings won't change whether the name is changed or not.   Even so, it's the NCAA that is pushing for the change.
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