I know alot of non native people who have had to come home for that same reason...nativegolfer wrote:I think i understand some of the reasoning from the native american community for wanting the name changed. But what happens when the name is changed- is there really still a need for all the support the university (tax payers) gives to those of native american ancestry? UND would no longer be representing the native american community on a national scale.
Could you be more specific about the support NA's get? There is the cultural diversity tuition waiver but the number of NA's who recieve this is small compared to other ethnic groups. There is a fund called the Sioux fund, I believe, but that is not supported by the taxpayers. Please don't perpetuate the belief that NA's get things for free because they are indian. It's very hard financially for a NA to go to a four year school. I know alot of people from SLN who have tried but had to come home for financial reasons.
The Schwab wrote:I know alot of non native people who have had to come home for that same reason...nativegolfer wrote:I think i understand some of the reasoning from the native american community for wanting the name changed. But what happens when the name is changed- is there really still a need for all the support the university (tax payers) gives to those of native american ancestry? UND would no longer be representing the native american community on a national scale.
Could you be more specific about the support NA's get? There is the cultural diversity tuition waiver but the number of NA's who recieve this is small compared to other ethnic groups. There is a fund called the Sioux fund, I believe, but that is not supported by the taxpayers. Please don't perpetuate the belief that NA's get things for free because they are indian. It's very hard financially for a NA to go to a four year school. I know alot of people from SLN who have tried but had to come home for financial reasons.
I would really like to hear IA and NG explain to me if they are for or against the nickname that UND uses, I really have no opinion one way or the other it doesnt really affect me one way or the other, but I would like to hear their reasons for or against because I think they could give some insight. Just a thought
cdub1 wrote:Ming01 wrote:cdub1 wrote:Ming01 wrote:Indians Alumni wrote:I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long! I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname. Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people. It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass.
You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance. What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people. There would be holy-heck to pay. So what makes it right? Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either. When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion. People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it! How is that not poking fun at the culture? Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion.
Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!
"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace? What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention?
Where does religion fit into this?
many native americans have their own religions
ok? still waiting for an answer...
thats as close as i can get to an answer i think the argument he used was dumb
I don't think my anciestors fought and died so UND can use the Icon at their sporting events!
Diamond D wrote:I don't think my anciestors fought and died so UND can use the Icon at their sporting events!
So how come FW has a dancing mascot at their sporting events?
BTW: I am not trying to be sarcastic. I am trying to be open minded and learn what I can from this topic. This is my first post here. I am just wondering what the difference is between having FW use it and UND use it.
flatlander wrote:What's the difference betweening Fighting Sioux and Fighting Irish? How many Sioux have been president of UND and how many were students at UND for the first 75 years of UND's existence? Most presidents of Notre Dame have had an Irish surnames and most of the student body was of Irish descent when they took up the nickname.
Notre Dame was made up mostly of kids who had Irish ancestory and they were saying, "This is who we are. If you don't like it, we'll smack you around." UND didn't have any Sioux around when they chose the nickname and they were never saying, "This is who we are," - UND is saying, "This is who *you* are." If a school at Standing Rock calls themselves the Sioux, that is the same deal as Notre Dame calling themselves the Irish.
The other key difference is that the Irish government has never asked Notre Dame to change the name and been told, "Hey, shut up, you Micks have enough problems - quit your drinking, stop fighting, and get some dang jobs," - and that's the kind of response the Sioux tribal councils got from UND's alumni association. Let me tell you, if Notre Dame had ever treated the Irish like that, there probably wouldn't be a stone left standing of that place. You can talk all you want about "honoring" folks but actions speaks louder than words.
Anyway, UND should not be suing anybody. They should be working with the Tribes to get ALL their permission and come to an agreement about how to use it. If they can't come to agreement, they can still use the nickname (it's not like the NCAA or the Sioux Tribes can stop them), but in order to keep any semblance of integrity, they would have to drop this pretence that they are honoring the Sioux.
Mandan, Class of '83 - and, yeah, I wish they'd change their nickname.
Indians Alumni wrote:cdub1 wrote:Ming01 wrote:cdub1 wrote:Ming01 wrote:Indians Alumni wrote:I don't know if some people would consider it a worthless topic, I think it is topic that has been put on the back burner too long! I see both sides, but I am leaning more towards getting rid of the mascot/nickname. Sioux is word used by the French for Dakota/Nakota/Lakota people. It means Snake or, in the lines, of Snake in the Grass.
You take a look at some mascots, they parade around mimicing Native American Culture & Dance. What would happen if we started doing that for Jewish people, Black People, or White people. There would be holy-heck to pay. So what makes it right? Throwing money at the Native American population doesn't make it right either. When Native American Mascots Dance or Mimic, they are poking fun at the culture and religion. People will say, "no that is not it at all!" but that is it! How is that not poking fun at the culture? Do we mock Catholics, Jewish People or any other religion.
Native Americans are people/culture/religion, they are not a mascot or nickname!
"personally i find it just about as annoying as it gets when it comes to 'real problems' in the ncaa as well as the country. " You are on a ND Sport Web Forum, what did you want to discus, world peace? What is more important in NCAA that requires more attention?
Where does religion fit into this?
many native americans have their own religions
ok? still waiting for an answer...
thats as close as i can get to an answer i think the argument he used was dumb
The Native American Dance is the religion. They aren't dancing out there for the heck of it, let me put it into something you would kinda understand. Ok, There is the rain dance, that is PRAYING for rain, there is other dances honoring different things, such as a round dance honoring the people. Just because it is not sitting at a church or kneeling down to pray doesn't mean it is not religious! Our culture and religion involve dance and worship through song.
So, you get it yet, the dancing and mockery used by the Sioux Mascot is offensive and has little to no respect for our culture and our religion. I don't think my anciestors fought and died so UND can use the Icon at their sporting events! US Government tried to extinguish us! I praise the NCAA for standing up and stopping this! I disagree with Florida State and others who accepted it, I guess they can be bought!
Are you serious? We can do it because thats who we are. And not person from our community has spoken out against it or has been offended. Thats why.
Diamond D wrote:Are you serious? We can do it because thats who we are. And not person from our community has spoken out against it or has been offended. Thats why.
I figured that would have been the answer, but I wanted to hear it from you.
What if one student of another ethnicity enrolled at FW and said he/she feels offended by it? Would you then change the mascot?
So what is the percentage needed to support a Native American logo? Can New Town use a Native American logo? Back in the 80's this town was predominately white and now it it predominately Native American.
Seminoles support Fl State. Indian's Alumni says he disagrees with it and NOT acceptable.
Fort Tottent supports FW High School. Yet this is acceptable? Seems like a double standard.
If we are going to ban Native American logos, then they all need to be banned.
To me it's totally appropriate for natives to use those logos and nicknames. To my knowledge there hasn't been one instance where this has been disputed in indian country.
rep wrote:this might sound kind of stupid/redundant, but why can't you let it go?
one of my relatives came over on the mayflower, another fought in the civil war (lied about his age to be able to fight or so the story goes)...i don't hold any ill-will towards the brits or to the south, even with england still referring to america as 'the colonies' or random schools trying to fly confederate flags on government or school buildings...i certainly didn't agree with britain or the confederacy then, but it happened and it is in the past and aren't things totally different now? might be poor examples, but it was the only thing i could think of that had to do with my family that was quite a ways back.
i guess from everything i've gathered, there is more signifigance put on history in the native american culture, than in my culture, but still...after a while doesn't all that hate that can't really be directed at someone other than a relative nameless/faceless target get old? and doesn't that, in turn, hold back a culture?
Diamond D wrote:I don't think my anciestors fought and died so UND can use the Icon at their sporting events!
So how come FW has a dancing mascot at their sporting events?
BTW: I am not trying to be sarcastic. I am trying to be open minded and learn what I can from this topic. This is my first post here. I am just wondering what the difference is between having FW use it and UND use it.
uconn_8 wrote:So if its acceptable on the reservations, why can't it be acceptable off of them? The words don't change off the reservation. They still mean the same thing. So if the native american high school's can use them (even schools not on reservations use "Braves" ex. Mandan, Bottineau. I've never heard of anyone having a gripe with them), why shouldn't UND be able to?
I am refering to schools on the reservations. Again, I think you need to read my post about being native and seeing what natives have to live thru and have lived thru before you can comment on the nickname. Many NA's do support the name but if one person is genuinely offended then it needs to be changed. UND needs to consider taking the funds it has raised to pay for the lawsuit and spend it on a new hockey arena cause lets face it, if the racist Englestad hadn't held the school hostage with his threats then this issue would have been settled long ago.Diamond D wrote:To me it's totally appropriate for natives to use those logos and nicknames. To my knowledge there hasn't been one instance where this has been disputed in indian country.
Help me understand this. What is Indian country? Do you mean the Reservation only or just where their is a higher percentage of Native American's living?
Are there not Native Americans that go to school at UND? How about Florida State?
Right now Devils Lake has 30% of their school enrollment is made up of Native Americans. Could Devils Lake change their name and use a Native logo?
Minneawauken I believe is over 40% now within their enrollment. Could they use the name or logo?
1. Indian's Alumni said that dancing is a religion and shouldn't be at sporting events, yet we see the Native American dancer at the FW basketball games (which however I love it when he goes out and gets the crowd going!) Are they not sporting events?
2. What constitues when and how the logo should be used. Should just Native Americans have that say? My understanding is that many Natives support the use of the name and logo?
I appreciate your feedback nativegolfer. I am trying to be open about learning about this.
member01 wrote:from a native american on here what is so abusive about : The Univeristy of North Dakota Fighting Sioux. they didnt pick the name to sterotype natives
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