Too Many Public Universities in ND?

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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Makotifarmguy » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:41 pm

point/center wrote:
and our legislature is so out of touch with the rest of North Dakota.


You hit the nail on the head there. No disagreements.

Just by it's make up we're relegated to farmers, ranches, real estate agents etc that can take 3 months off every 2 years to legislate.


Include the insurance agents in there as well.

would have to guess there is more silver in the legislative chamber than spirit lake casino slot machines?


boy..you will get me going here. I can't believe no-one made any fuss when our legislators gave themeselves a 15% increase in pay while the guidelines specifically state they cannot give themselves more than 8% at one time. How they got away with that makes me want to puke my guts out.

I have tore into more legislators than I can shake a stick at, but the reality is that it doesnt' do much good. I have found that if you can take some time to educate them, you may have a chance.

Education used to make up quite a bit of the budget, now all of these over-aged polticians are dumping money into human services instead of education. How convenient for them. arrrgggghh
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Ming01 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:48 pm

rep wrote:
point/center wrote:
Makotifarmguy wrote:Boy, wished i would have seen this topic earlier.



I have sat in the legislative sessions regarding higher education for more years than I can count. It is sad to see that our legislators have basically turned their backs to our young kids that are entering college.



Sorry, I am a higher ed junkie.


and our legislature is so out of touch with the rest of North Dakota. Just by it's make up we're relegated to farmers, ranches, real estate agents etc that can take 3 months off every 2 years to legislate. I know you've been there more than I have....would have to guess there is more silver in the legislative chamber than spirit lake casino slot machines?

guess the bigger issue is the future of ND. Personally I wish I'd have spent more time in JUCO than at 4 year. Price is by far the compelling rationale. What can you get at NDSU/UND in the first two years of school that you can't get at a JUCO?[/quote]

another bison first down?


agreed, lol. i guess the athletics makes up for it
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Tigger » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:08 pm

they can close Mayville State tomorrow for all I care...the people who run it should be
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby scc » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:29 pm

Are there too many public colleges and universities in North Dakota? Yes.

Should we worry about it when the state coffers aren't exactly hurting for cash? No.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Hinsa » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:39 pm

Tigger wrote:they can close Mayville State tomorrow for all I care...the people who run it should be f


This post is a slap in the face of the thousands of graduates of Mayville State and the thousands more that have been educated by Mayville State graduates. Mayville State has produced industry leaders, military generals, outstanding coaches, research leaders in the sciences, state and federal legislators, and the list could go on and on.

....you are really showing your intelligence with this post, Tigger.

This is one of the most, if not THE most, offensive post I've read on this site.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby point/center » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:25 pm

Hinsa wrote:
Tigger wrote:they can close Mayville State tomorrow for all I care...the people who run it should be f


This post is a slap in the face of the thousands of graduates of Mayville State and the thousands more that have been educated by Mayville State graduates. Mayville State has produced industry leaders, military generals, outstanding coaches, research leaders in the sciences, state and federal legislators, and the list could go on and on.

....you are really showing your intelligence with this post, Tigger.

This is one of the most, if not THE most, offensive post I've read on this site.



I edited it. If you see a post like that in future. there is a report button on the right-top area. report it please
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Indians Alumni » Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:54 am

One thing I noticed is that there are so many Universities popping up everywhere. Most of them I've seen online, or Four year institutions are working with 2 Year institutions, i.e. Mayville State and Lake Region State College. That is a good idea. I mean it gives people who work or unable to attend college a chance to get their degree!
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby scruffy » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:28 pm

As our high schools continue to see enrollment drop, I'm shocked that the state board of higher education isn't considering closing an institution or two. As a tax payer I find that very disturbing. We need to have a board that has a vision for the future instead of only worrying about "more" funding every two years when the legislature meets...
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby flatlander » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:51 pm

scruffy wrote:As our high schools continue to see enrollment drop, I'm shocked that the state board of higher education isn't considering closing an institution or two. As a tax payer I find that very disturbing. We need to have a board that has a vision for the future instead of only worrying about "more" funding every two years when the legislature meets...


Well scruffy, there are two ways of looking at that. On one hand, you can say, "Oh man, North Dakota is doomed to shrink forever!" In that case North Dakota won't have anybody living here except senior citizens by 2100. In that case, you might as well close ALL the public universities one at a time until none are left. On the other hand, you can say, "Man, fewer young people is a problem that we need to address." If you agree with that last statement, you might want to consider keeping all the colleges open and encouraging schools to recruit extensively from out of the state because kids who go to college in North Dakota are MUCH, MUCH more likely to end up living in the state, starting families, and paying taxes. Yeah, you might think that it would be cheaper to have kids go out of state for their educations and not have out of state kids barge in but after a couple decades of that kind of policy, who exactly is going to be paying taxes?

As a stakeholder in North Dakota's future, I am a lot more disturbed by legislators who spend most of their time worrying that one part of the state might be doing better than their little patch (and then aggressively trying to pit one part of the state against another - as if that does anything but hurt all of North Dakota). I don't care what professions our legislators have as long as they aren't myopic and/or idiotic.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby scruffy » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:59 pm

Wyoming, a state similar in population has four universities and they do very well. Based on current and future population trends , along with our geographics we could easily close one or two down and still have more then sufficient space for our kids and those from outside the region who want to attend school in North Dakota. Trade schools might be another matter. This state doesn't offer too much in that area.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby dtvman » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:39 am

I don't know where you got your info Scruffy but I only know of 1 public university in Wyoming. They have 7 colleges that are 2 year institutions, and one 4 year institution. That is not out of line with what ND has.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby scruffy » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:54 am

I didn't realize Wyoming only had 1 university...I thought they had four. In Noth Dakota, I can think of at least five public four year universitys..It all boils down to economics. It's no different with our small school districts in the state. If it doesn't pencil out, it should be closed. The taxpayers deserve that...
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby flatlander » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:42 am

scruffy wrote:I didn't realize Wyoming only had 1 university...I thought they had four. In Noth Dakota, I can think of at least five public four year universitys..It all boils down to economics. It's no different with our small school districts in the state. If it doesn't pencil out, it should be closed. The taxpayers deserve that...


Say you close Mayville State, how much does that save? What would closing it do to the tax base and property values in Mayville and Portland? What would the cost be of having these students go to UND instead? What's the cost of mothballing the place and paying severance to current employees? What is the cost of having future students go to an out-of-state institution and, because of that, never settling in North Dakota?

North Dakota's major problem is demographics. It is not high taxes because of too many colleges. The number of younger people who can start families, earn wages, start businesses, and pay taxes to support an ever-growing number of retirees is shrinking - so even if you save a penny on some cost-cutting scheme, you end up losing a dollar because your tax base has shrunk in the meantime. It's kind of like rats on a sinking ship who try to save themselves by climbing on top of other rats - they don't realize that this will only help them until the rat under them drowns much less that the should be trying to keep the boat from sinking. The difference is that rats have an excuse for their behavior :)
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Stromer » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:12 pm

flatlander wrote:
Say you close Mayville State, how much does that save? What would closing it do to the tax base and property values in Mayville and Portland? What would the cost be of having these students go to UND instead? What's the cost of mothballing the place and paying severance to current employees? What is the cost of having future students go to an out-of-state institution and, because of that, never settling in North Dakota?

North Dakota's major problem is demographics. It is not high taxes because of too many colleges. The number of younger people who can start families, earn wages, start businesses, and pay taxes to support an ever-growing number of retirees is shrinking - so even if you save a penny on some cost-cutting scheme, you end up losing a dollar because your tax base has shrunk in the meantime. It's kind of like rats on a sinking ship who try to save themselves by climbing on top of other rats - they don't realize that this will only help them until the rat under them drowns much less that the should be trying to keep the boat from sinking. The difference is that rats have an excuse for their behavior :)


Sure there might be heavy expenses when you first shut down an institution, but you have to look at long term effects. I so not know if it would be better to shut one down or not, but the state board needs to look at the benefits long term and forget about short term cost.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:46 pm

Why would you want to change ND university system?? I think we have a great setup for higher education in this state. There are 5 tech/colleges spread out around the state fairly evenly in Botno, Whap, LR, Will, and BSC. There are 4 mid level 4 yr university in Minot, Mayville, VC, and Dickinson....again evenly spread across the state. Then you have 2 (soon to be) Division I universities that are leaders in the country in certain research areas and are a huge asset to our state. Now you gotta realize that every student isn't going to receive a 4 yr degree and they can easily pick up a trade or an assoc degree at the 2 yr colleges. Not every student is cut out for a division I university so they have 4 other universities to choose from to get their education. Then the students who want the advanced degrees have 2 great universities available to them in state instead of having to go to another state for their education. How can it be any better for bringing in new students and retaining the ones we already have?
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Hinsa » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:10 pm

NDLionsfan: what a great explanation of the university system! That is by far the most logical, concise, and clear explanation of our system I've heard in quite some time.

I agree, we have a great system. Leave it alone!
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby scruffy » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:50 pm

Obviously the town who loses their school will hurt until their local economic development offices come up with something to fill the void, but we have to do whats best for the entire state in the long run. Back in the early 1900's we lost the need for homestead offices and horse buggy manufacturers so they were able to be closed down and the area adapted to the times and moved on....
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby flatlander » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:28 pm

Stromer wrote:Sure there might be heavy expenses when you first shut down an institution, but you have to look at long term effects. I so not know if it would be better to shut one down or not, but the state board needs to look at the benefits long term and forget about short term cost.


First, the State Board has no authority to close down anything. The legislature would have to instruct them to study the issue so you need to start there. Second, the expenses I wrote about were mostly long term.

Seriously, let's say you shut down Mayville State. They have 900 students and they get $5 million a year from the state. That's about $5500 per student per year. Well, let's assume all the students go to UND. Well, the state has decided that UND needs $10 million more year than they did last year even though their enrollment continues to drop so UND is now getting about $100 million a year from the state for something like 12,000 students. That's $8,333 per year per student. That's not a savings and that's not even taking into account that UND would demand new infrastructure if they had to take on Mayville State's job.

To me it looks like the "savings" only occur when students choose to go to other states and, as I've said before, that's the worst-case scenario for a state like ND.

The problem I have is that it's always somebody else getting gored. Well, if we're going to look at cost-saving measures, it makes sense to start at the biggest expense items, not the smallest. Heck, Mayville State's budget is 1/3 of UND's medical school! Why not have the state board look into that as well? How about the aviation program? It's not like pilots, stewardesses, and air traffic controllers are likely to settle down and pay taxes in North Dakota. While we're at it, maybe the state should encourage enrollment growth at NDSU and encourage enrollment declines at UND since it looks like the state should save over $2000 per pupil per year every time a kid picks NDSU over UND? Hehe, I'm really picking on UND right now but it is to prove a point. UND is very expensive to run. Mayville State is cheap.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Makotifarmguy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:40 am

Flatlander is right on. First the legislature would put a "comittee" together to study the issue and then it would take a constitutional amendment to get rid of most of the institutes.

I am trying to find my info here, but I believe Mayville got $9,200,000 each year to run the college.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby scruffy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:11 am

The state will NEVER close down an institution. Our current political system of "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" will never permit it. When was the last time a government downsized! Politicians love control and power, and unneccessary bureacracy is what they crave...
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Makotifarmguy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:19 pm

Here you all go. Right from the ND State Appropriations 06-07 with 05-06 enrollments.

BSC $20,695,572.00 with 3370 enrollments
LRSC $ 6,636,952.00 with 1471 enrollments
WSC $ 6,579,702.00 with 947 enrollments
UND $115,120,015.00 with 12,954 enrollments
UND-Med $ 34,488,501.00 no idea on enrollments
NDSU $98,302,791.00 with 12,099 enrollments
NDSCS $29,126,813.00 with 2,475 enrollments
DSU $18,052,873.00 with 2,516 enrollments
MaSU $11,205,024.00 with 912 enrollments
MiSU $38,267,401.00 with 3798 enrollments
VCSU $14,146,372.00 with 1,035 enrollments
MiSU-Bott $ 4,918,250.00 with 523 enrollments

If you read the reports about a year ago BSC, NDSU, and LRSC showed they were underfunded by over 50% of their peer institutes. VSCU was highest with a 98% rating while I believe either BSC or LRSC was like 42%.

Now does anybody want to take a wild guess as to where the legislative committee members are located at??? :mrgreen:
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby old lineman » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:53 pm

first guess Grand Forks, Fargo, Bismarck and Raub
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Chewy » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:43 pm

NDSportsFan wrote:I've lived in Williston and Devils Lake, and close to Mayville. I've also got a B.S. from VCSU, and my brother attended MSU-Bottineau. I've seen the economic impact of those institutions in rural North Dakota, I feel my state taxes are fair, and I'd personally vote to keep them open.

My 2 cents.



This is exactly the problem. The only reason the state gives for keeping these schools open is to fuel economic development which is totally a waste. WASTE. WASTE. WASTE. The state higher education system is totally backwards. if they had any leadership at the Capital they would follow the model in Wyoming where there very little redundancy with their public higher ed schools. But instead my tax money is getting wasted. What a joke!
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